Modern Vespa

I have got a Vespa ET2 150 which is been in an accident. I have installed a new ignition and CDI unit. I have got it running. However when I get the engine started it will not go. Thanks to you, I have also looked at some of your technical description and I have been able to open the clutch/variator cover under BELT/VARIATOR change discussion area. Thinking that belt might be torn or what have you..... But it seems fine. what should I do next!!??.

Any help is appreciated.

Many Thanks...

You got to be a little more specific...
What does it do when it starts?

With throttle up with no power transfer to the rear wheel. The rear wheel does not turn. You give gas and the engine is running but no torgue on the rear wheel and hence no forward movement on the scooter. Could the rear wheel assembly be broken? I have checked the belt and it seems to be in good condition. Any ideas?!!!

Regards...

Sometimes, when people change the rear tire, they don't put it together correctly and the rear tire doesn't move...You might want to consider checking that out.

Does the rear wheel spin free by hand? (power off)
Does the belt move free by hand? (It won't spin but should move)
The engine might run but you're loosing transference of power somewhere.
I suspect something lodged by the tire stopping it from spinning.
Not sure if it's possible to overtighten tire, but could be that.
Or the bearing in which the wheel rests has gone (lacking grease or ball bearings)
Might be something at the rear end of the belt.
Something is stopping it.

Hey all,

I thought I resurrect this thread because I have a very similar problem.

Last week I had solo driven my 2003 ET2 around town no problem. Parked it, and a couple hours later my wife and I got on and got about 30 yards before the scooter stopped going forward.

The back wheel spins free by hand when powered off, and spins a *little* when the bike is on and the back tire is free (about the same as usual).

When I throttle it with back wheel free and in the air, the wheel barely moves (like, a tad faster than idle), and when it does it it's very intermittent.

I checked around the wheel as best I could--nothing seemed very unusual and I didn't see any places where a screw might have recently fallen out (actually I DID see one spot like that, but the other screws were solid and the piece seemed very secure).

Any ideas? Like the last poster said, I'm definitely losing power somewhere. I'll check the belt but--where is it located?

Thanks!!

Michael

PANA inside the tranny cover, where the kickstart is.Check the Wiki section because Fabio Douglas is the ET guru. There should be something in there and if not PM him and give him a heads up about your thread. I don't think it's your belt. But then again i'm no mechanic I can point you in the right way. Check with Fabio and hopefully others will chime in. Good luck

Hey Judy! Good idea, I'll PM Fabio and review the wiki again. Meanwhile....anyone else have an idea?

Thanks!

Michael

.

Hi Michael

If I'm understanding your problem correctly, it sounds like the drive-belt has snapped/is slipping maybe, or perhaps the clutch is slipping

Do you know when the drive-belt was last changed?

Fabio

.

No idea--any chance you could advise me on how to check its condition?

Thanks,

Michael

.

Hi

You'll need to remove the drive belt cover like pic#1.

If the belt has snapped then it'll look similar to pic#2 maybe.

Check the belt for cracks and splits, if all ok then post back and I'll explain what to look for regarding the clutch.

Fabio

.

This is awesome, thank you! I'll try taking the thing apart tomorrow and get back to you when I know something.

Thanks again!

Michael

So I can't seem to get to the screws to open up the grey part that houses the drive belt--the black plastic thing has a ratchet bolt I can't loosen. I have no idea why it's on so tight! ...I'm assuming the front panel is SUPPOSED to come off, right?

Sigh.

...when I manually roll the scooter around there's a soft sound that I think is new--it sounds like something in one of the wheels is rubbing against another piece as it turns. 80% sure this is a new sound.

.

The bolt you can't undo holds the airbox onto the scoot.

If you look inside the scooter and feel under the carb on the airbox side you will feel where this bolt locates into a 'body clip' - - - and they are known to rust up sometimes, a dosing of WD40 or similar, and then leave it to stand and soak in and penetrate the rust overnight.... should do the trick

The dangley pipe is supposed to be loose, its an overflow.

The noise is perhaps your belt snapped inside the casing that touching the clutch bell maybe?

Fabio

.

Thanks for the tip--so I was right that the air box has to come off first? I'll buy some WD40 and report back.

Thanks!


Michael

SO I tried again and got off the last bolt--after pulling the tube going from the engine to the air box I removed the front panel of the air box; I removed one more bolt and the whole air box came free!

I checked the air filter--it's black but didn't seem "dirty"--just a deep black color. Nevertheless I'm guessing it should be cleaner? I'll clean it once I can find some oil to re-oil the filter.

Next I tried loosening all the bolts holding the gray part together--my piece of crap wrenches actually stripped trying to loosen them! I got all but 1 or 2 loose so I'll need some better tools to finish opening it.

I kept poking around and found a hole (seen in picture). I put my fingers in it and thought I could feel a rubber belt. It felt very solid (not worn) and thick (its width reached each edge). I kept my finger on the object and rolled the scooter, but the belt didn't seem to move. Is that normal?

Other concerns:

I tried to look at the spark plug, which I THINK is located thru the small panel at the base of the foot area. But it was covered in rubber and my prodding didn't seem to make it want to come free. How do I remove it?

Finally (and I'm starting to think this is a big deal, though probably unrelated) I just learned for the first time today about "rear hub oil" which I haven't changed in the 18 months I've ridden the thing (tho the shop might have 18 months ago). I watched some videos and will check the dipstick tomorrow, but I have a feeling it's quite dry (the MIN indicator by my headlights seemed empty though I couldn't be sure). Any chance having little to no hub oil would be related to my problem?

Thanks again for any help!

Michael

So I removed 11 bolts from the grey cover, plus one smaller one from the kickstarter. But the cover didn't budge. I guess I'll spray the whole thing with a penetrating oil and see if that helps.

Did I miss a step here to remove the cover? I've studied the manual (useless in this regard) and the parts list with all its diagrams, but was generally nonplussed.

My guess is that I need to remove the kickstarter before the cover will come free, but I was unable to do so: after I pulled the bolt the metal was still clamped around this circular metal piece with a small circular notch in the middle. No idea how to remove this.

Any thoughts? Also, if you look at my last post I mentioned that I think I could feel the belt through the small hole to the lower-left of the grey cover. It seemed thick and intact, but also didn't seem to move when I rolled the scooter.

Oh, and I cleaned the air box and the air filter. After they dry I'll soak the filter in standard motor oil and wring out the excess.

Any help is very, very appreciated.

Thanks!

Michael

.

Don't remove the kick start mechanism from the cover!!! there is a spring inside that holds the kick-start that if it come off is a bugger to get back on!

So you've removed all of the 11 or so bolts from the cover and dislodged the air filter casing away from the drive-belt cover.

There are two small locating pins that help to locate the cover that can get a bit tight and hold the cover on.

What I do is to find a very very thin screwdriver an place it in between the drive belt cover and the transmission casing, then pry it open very very very gently.

Others give the cover a light tap with a rubber mallet and I suppose that this will do the trick but I've always been wary of that

Also you can put your fingers into the inspection hole on the left where the grommet was, and pull gently there.

First time off is always a bit tricky, but subsequent removals is a breeze!

Fabio.

.

Thanks as always for the info Fabio!!

I can't seem to locate the locator pins (ironically!) but It sounds like I don't actually have to find them, I just need to apply more pressure w/ a screwdriver or a mallet and the case should come free.

Regarding terminology: so this cover I'm trying to remove is the "drive belt casing"? and the back side is what--the transmission casing?

Thanks as always!


Michael

.

That's what I call them, but I'm unsure of the proper terms, I just make them up as I go along, Hehe

The thing you're trying to remove I call the drive-belt cover, and the bit that it attaches to I call the transmission casing.

Yes you can't see the locating pins until you remove the cover, I've ringed them in red in the picture below (that's if I recall correctly which ones they are!!!!)

Fabio

.

Thanks Fabio. I've covered the edge where the casing meets the other side with penetrating oil and will wait a few hours. The cover is NOT BUDGING at all so far, despite some whacks and some prying I've attempted.

You mentioned using a very thin screwdriver to pry the casing open, but I'm telling you there is ZERO space between the two pieces for me get at.

My next thought is to find a lip on the cover that I can bang from the other side (I guess through one of the spokes or something) or, alternatively, to try prying by inserting something sturdy into that big hole where I could feel the belt and then working that a little.

Like I said, this thing is on solid!


Michael

.

This is where I usually pry with a thin "electrical type" screwdriver... with the screwdriver at the angle of the line.

Tap it in gently so that the tip is below the surface of the cover and then waggle the screwdriver gently from side to side to release the grip of the cover against the transmission casing.


Fabio

.

Too funny--that's exactly where I was prying too! I'll give it another go....

One transmission cover (that's a good term for it) I had to remove needed the blade of a Swiss army knife whacked with a hammer to start it off.

There is a place with two bumps on either side of the cover, on the front and back of the cover to get it off....Use two large regular screwdriver to pry them apart, rocking them gently.....

I GOT THE $%^##ING COVER OFF!

Big thanks to Greg, JimC, and Fabio.

I finally removed it with screwdrivers and whacking after I removed the small rubber piece. However, I'm not sure if removing it made a difference or not?

ANYWAY, what caught my eye when I opened her up was the pinion assembly (what the parts guide calls it). I think it was loose (can't remember for sure now).

I examined the mechanism, and it looks like the pinion assy fits in the hole but isn't attached in any way--is this normal? Second thing I noticed is that when I reseated the pinion assembly, the pinion's large cog meshed with the tiny cog (the hard-to-see one in the picture). BUT the pinion assy's forward cog then wouldn't reach to mesh with the giant cog. If I manually twisted the pinion open I could maybe barely make it mesh with both cogs at once, but it was difficult.

I would assume that the pinion assy should mesh with both cogs, but unless some internal mechanism opens up the pinion during operation, I can't see how both cogs could be engaged simultaneously.

Questions
1) Is something wrong with the pinion assembly?
2) The drive belt and two circles move when I twist a circle or pull the belt--but about every 1/8 turn of the circle it gets difficult to keep turning. Once I push harder it feels like it's going over a "bump" and moves freely until about 1/8 turn later. Is this normal?
3) Is it ok to give the kickstarter mechanism and the pieces inside the drive belt casing a good cleaning? Would I need to re-grease the pieces afterward?


THANKS GUYS!!

Michael


Edit: Oh, cool, I just found out it's called a "bendix"!

Questions
1) Is something wrong with the pinion assembly? No it sits loosely as you have guessed, when it it activated by the starter motor it spins out to the cog and spins the front most "wheel" (Driving/Front Pulley Assembly), then retracts after the scoot starts up
2) The drive belt and two circles move when I twist a circle or pull the belt--but about every 1/8 turn of the circle it gets difficult to keep turning. Once I push harder it feels like it's going over a "bump" and moves freely until about 1/8 turn later. Is this normal? Yes, this is the compression at the piston/cylinder and it totally normal
3) Is it ok to give the kickstarter mechanism and the pieces inside the drive belt casing a good cleaning? Would I need to re-grease the pieces afterward? Yes and Yes. clean it and then lightly grease it (but don't take it apart!!!)

Take a quick look at this new wiki article I've written to learn more about your scooter's transmission>>>>> [wiki-cvt-principles-how-it-works-how-to-improve-it-]

Fabio

.

Fabio, thanks for answering my questions and the AMAZING wiki...I looked over it and there's a wealth of information I'll reference if I ever kit my ET2!

I just read a whole lot of posts on the bendix--and it sounds like bendix issues are almost always associated with not starting. But my scoot starts fine--it just has no power (back wheel moves semi-quickly when off the ground..but not enough power to move me). I can clean the bendix as instructed in other posts but the question remains...

Why is the scooter starting but delivering almost zero power?

IF the bendix had somehow gotten loose, I'm guessing the back wheel wouldn't respond at all to throttle, so that's probably not the problem.

I didn't see an answer to my problem in my excellent wiki--but if I missed it I apologize.

Thanks!!!

Michael

EDIT: the video at the end of your wiki shows a vespa being operated without the transmission cover on. Unless you say I shouldn't, I'm going to reinstall the bendix and try cranking up the vespa to see if I can notice anything wrong.

Edit 2: Ok, looks like starting her with transmission cover removed would be a bad idea? https://modernvespa.com/forum/search.php?search_id=1636628571&start=100 Too bad because I really want to have eyes on this situation.

.

I've done it in the past I must admit, with both my ET2 and GT125. Only for short periods but it showed me immediately what was going wrong, the guy to ask on this is DougL - he'll know the answer I'm sure to whether it should be done or not.

Fabio

.

Thanks, I PMd him

In the meantime, presuming I can't run it w/o the case--what you suggest I take a look at next? I've found a few threads with similar problems, but no great solutions-- e.g. No power!

Thanks,

Michael

.

First thoughts....

1. With the scooter on the stand does the rear wheel spin freely?
2. Does clutch bell spin freely when you spin it by hand?
3. Can you move the belt by hand as if its slipping in-between the pulley faces?
4. Have you got access to see the clutch plates to see if they're worn or Glazed?
   

Fabio

.

Answers:

1) Yes

2) Yes

3) I can move the belt, but only in conjunction with the variator and clutch (so it seems well-fitted and not loose)

4) No - should I?

Thanks!

Michael

.

These are my thoughts.....



From the details that you've supplied....

It sounds as if the scooter was riding along fine, but then with "two-up" it stopped, the engine was still running but the scooter wouldn't propel itself along - this to me sounds like a transmission problem.

The scooter will start again and the engine will run but it wont propel itself along anymore, so I'm thinking that the engine is ok, when you turned the front pulley by hand you experienced compression at the piston so it seems as if power is reaching the font pulley from the engine.

The rear wheel is turning freely so its doesn't sound like a final gearing or brakes sticking on problem.

The belt when you turn it by hand turns both the front and rear pulleys, which implies that the power from the engine is passing to the front pulley and then along the belt to the rear pulley, ok!!

So my thoughts would lead me to the clutch being the problem.

Clutch problems are usually one of three problems.

1. The clutch plates are worn, so there is no connection inbetween the rear pulley and the rear wheel (the clutch is slipping). Remedy this with new clutch plates/pads.
2. The clutch plates/clutch bell are glazed, so there is no connection inbetween the rear pulley and the rear wheel (the clutch is slipping), sort this by cleaning the plates/bell with brake cleaner and some wire wool/scotchbrite pads/wet'n'dry to 'roughen up' the surfaces
3. The clutch is sticking on its pins, there are 3 circular swivel pins/springs inside the clutch than can get all gunked up/rusty/stiff and need lubing with wd40/light grease.

Fabio

.

Awesome, I have to leave for a few hours but will review this when I get back. A slight update/FYI:

1) I started the scooter w/ removed transmission plate with no craziness--except that it didn't start--I assume because the bendix was no longer being braced by the cover.

2) So I replaced cover but left air box off. Started scooter. Sounded worse/rougher/louder than usual (probably b/c air box was removed?). At idle, rear wheel didn't move. I gave it some gas and the wheel barely moved.

3) It occurs to me that I might not have tried full throttle yet. Unless that would be hurtful I think I'll try at some point.

4) I'd love to find a way to steady the bendix so I can look at the system in action...hmmm.

5) I quickly checked behind the transmission bell--saw nothing broken-looking...saw small springs (3 or 4?) on the back side of the bell..all seemed intact.

I'll look into what you suggested soon.

Thanks!

Michael

.

Undo the nut that holds the clutch on... you may have to get an assistant to sit on the scoot with the rear wheel on the ground and the brakes on to get enough grip to undo the nut (its torqued up well). I use a clutch locking tool but I know it can be done this way to save money

The clutch bell will then slide off the rear assembly and you will be able to inspect the inside surface of the clutch bell where the clutch plates 'grab' onto when the clutch engages. if its overly smooth then roughen the surface up as I suggested in my last post

Also inspect the condition of the 3 clutch plates (they look like brake pads), they should have sufficient thickness of material to be effective and also the surface of them should be "grippy" and not smooth, again roughen them up.

Fabio

(PS - 3 quick photos to show you what to look at...)

Clutch bell at the bottom, clutch mechanism on the right


Close-up of the clutch mechanism - note the 3 clutchplates/pads, the 3 springs, and the three pins - all should move freely (they're strong springs so they wont move much, but they shouldn't be seized)

What the clutch mechanism looks like with the clutch bell removed (right hand side)

Thanks for the help!

So I had my wife sit on the vespa so that the back wheel was on the ground and she depressed both breaks--and the clutch bell spun freely as ever! Is that normal? I'll try to get the bell off but as you said, it's on solid, and I'm not sure what kind of leverage I can generate without damaging the bell.

OK so I got the nut that holds the bell to come off (I'll post pictures later, my method was pretty ridiculous).

If you flipped the bell over so that it was shaped like a bowl that you put cereal in, the inside sides of the bowl would be perfectly smooth--in fact the whole interior of the bell is quite smooth.

I'm guessing the clutch pads are the 3 black rubber patches on the outside of the clutch? Ok so those are very smooth rubber as well.

I tried to get off the entire mechanism (all the pieces still there after the bell came off) but it didn't seem possible while the belt was still on. Will I have to remove the variator nut too and remove the whole thing to be able to remove the clutch?

Finally, let me note again that the bell was not being "gripped" at ALL by the clutch--the bell stayed put when I rotated the belt, for example, even thought the clutch and everything else moved too. Is this normal? I'm guessing that there's a mechanism that makes the 3 clutch "arms" extend like a throwing star during operation and grip the bell?

Thanks!

Michael

.

Hi Michael - I've tried to answer in your order, I hope it makes sense.....



OK so I got the nut that holds the bell to come off (I'll post pictures later, my method was pretty ridiculous). You must tell me, hehe!

If you flipped the bell over so that it was shaped like a bowl that you put cereal in, the inside sides of the bowl would be perfectly smooth--in fact the whole interior of the bell is quite smooth. This should be smooth inside but also clean and free from clutch pad/plate dust, clean it out and rough it up slightly with some mildish abrasive paper.

I'm guessing the clutch pads are the 3 black rubber patches on the outside of the clutch? Ok so those are very smooth rubber as well. These are made of an abrasive material similar to brake pads, they should have some thickness left on them and be uniform in "depth", the flat outer surfaces need to be slightly rough to the touch, if it is that the surface of these is slightly shiny and very smooth then you have a bit of clutch pad 'glazing' going on, the constant 'grab' 'grab' of the clutch makes the surface shiny until one day it grabs no more

I tried to get off the entire mechanism (all the pieces still there after the bell came off) but it didn't seem possible while the belt was still on. Will I have to remove the variator nut too and remove the whole thing to be able to remove the clutch? From how you're describing it, I don't think you need to remove the clutch, just clean up the inside of the bell and deglaze the clutch pads, also lightly grease the 3 "swing pins" (I haven't got a clue what they're really called) but ensure you don't get any grease anywhere near the contact surfaces of the pads

Finally, let me note again that the bell was not being "gripped" at ALL by the clutch--the bell stayed put when I rotated the belt, for example, even thought the clutch and everything else moved too. Is this normal? I'm guessing that there's a mechanism that makes the 3 clutch "arms" extend like a throwing star during operation and grip the bell? Yes you're correct, at standstill the clutch should spin freely, but as the revs of the rear pulley increase the pads 'throw out' to grab the inside of the bell, this gives contact and the bell then moves with the rest of clutch which in turn applies power to the rear wheel - can you see now why I'm thinking that the glazing of the clutch is the reason why the back wheel isn't connecting/turning?

Fabio

.

Beautiful! I'll go grab some sandpaper and report back!