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Wangta wrote:
XLR8 wrote:
Michael: In the USA, one of your legal responsibilities as a dealer of motor vehicles is to ensure and take all precautions that you are not dealing in stolen property. Since scooters have a VIN plate (this one was still attached) and since this specific dealer used a Post-It note as a receipt to show to the police, you can bet your bottom dollar that they are in serious trouble. My grandfather was a New & Used car dealer for many years and he kept meticulous records as well as several checks & balances to ensure that he didn't get caught in these types of schemes. People regularly go to prison for this offense in the U.S. and unless this dealer can lay the blame specifically on one of his employee's, the dealer (him/her-self) will be standing in a courtroom in short order.
Shiet. I'd be scuuurrred if I was the dealer. Perhaps the OP should go back to them and try and buy a new scooter....they maybe willing to give a SERIOUS discount....but then again, who wants to deal with that type of company.
No shit, you'll end up with someone else's scooter with a jacked ignition and a bad paint job. No thanks.
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What is even sadder is the OP said he gave the dealership the VIN so they could be on a look out for it when it was originaly stollen. So they can't even claim ignorance.
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While I am not able to sort out all the details of what happened, the receipt alone sets of bells in my mind. I can only assume that this dealer holds some kind of license or permit to sell motor vehicles, and if so, must understand the rudiments of vehicle titling. Unless I have missed something really fundamental, we are talking about severe ignorance or severe lack of ethics. I mean really, a receipt with that brief vehicle description, no VIN and a printed name as the signature? Reminds me of the old story of the kid who brought a note to school to explain his absence the day before:

Dear Mrs Jones:

Please give Bobby an excused absence for yesterday. He was in bed with a science infection.

Signed: his mother


That receipt is about the same level.

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XLR8 wrote:
Michael: In the USA, one of your legal responsibilities as a dealer of motor vehicles is to ensure and take all precautions that you are not dealing in stolen property. Since scooters have a VIN plate (this one was still attached) and since this specific dealer used a Post-It note as a receipt to show to the police, you can bet your bottom dollar that they are in serious trouble. My grandfather was a New & Used car dealer for many years and he kept meticulous records as well as several checks & balances to ensure that he didn't get caught in these types of schemes. People regularly go to prison for this offense in the U.S. and unless this dealer can lay the blame specifically on one of his employee's, the dealer (him/her-self) will be standing in a courtroom in short order.
As I wrote,
michael_h wrote:
I'm not saying that they are innocent in this, and I'm not saying that they are not.
Still, I'd let this play out in what ever legal arena is appropriate before casting public blame on individuals or individual dealerships. There will be plenty of opportunity for that once charges are laid and the the matter is before the courts.
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MICHEAL your right about the employee and you can't as an owner monitor every little thing they do. But it does reflect back onto the dealership. The big problem is (so it seems by what the OP has posted) that the dealership didn't step up to the plate with apologizing or anything else for that matter. That's why i'm putting the blame on the dealership. They are the ones who should be getting to the root of the problem and keeping Whitty updated. I don't see that happening. Just my opinion.
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Do note the OP said she bought a replacement with insurance money. Once the claim was paid, who actually "owned" the scooter? Not saying the dealer is clean, but I'm not sure what obligation was owed by the dealer, or anyone else at that point, to the OP if she had collected on her policy.
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Ok, what about this---the insurance company has been screwed by the dealership and i think we all know who pays when the insurance company gets screwed. if the scooter dealership would have done it's due diligence--the insurance company would have sold the scooter to partially cover their expenses and all of our premiums would reflect it one claim at a time.
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a.eckel@bex.net wrote:
Ok, what about this---the insurance company has been screwed by the dealership and i think we all know who pays when the insurance company gets screwed. if the scooter dealership would have done it's due diligence--the insurance company would have sold the scooter to partially cover their expenses and all of our premiums would reflect it one claim at a time.
I agree there is a smell to all of this that just isn't right. I would like to see updates from the OP as the investigation continues or is brought to a close. My concern here is that the account given to us puts the dealer in a very bad light -- and possibly rightly so. However, none of us can fact check what is passed here as "fact" so I will continue to look at this from all angles.

So far what is certain is the OP had her scooter stolen. The OP received an insurance settlement for the theft and the OP was able to replace the scooter with a combination of her money and the insurance settlement. That is how things should work in the real world.

Now, the complication arises when the stolen scooter reappears with a very dubious provenance. Who owned the scooter at that point and what the dealer's obligations under the law were at that time are the open questions.
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judy wrote:
MICHEAL your right about the employee and you can't as an owner monitor every little thing they do. But it does reflect back onto the dealership. The big problem is (so it seems by what the OP has posted) that the dealership didn't step up to the plate with apologizing or anything else for that matter. That's why i'm putting the blame on the dealership. They are the ones who should be getting to the root of the problem and keeping Whitty updated. I don't see that happening. Just my opinion.
Actually, you have to monitor everything they do. There's a legal thing called vicarious liability and the owners of the business are responsible for pretty much everything the employee does when they're an employee of the business.

The fact that the vehicle is on the dealers premises would indicate vicarious liability for this employer.

I am witholding all comment other than, if the facts from the OP are correct, I am gobsmacked!!!

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Given the information as presented, it appears that several felony crimes have taken place. Motor Vehicle theft, receiving stolen goods, operating a fence, conspiracy, uttering a forged instrument, probably other statutes have been violated. Apparently the people involved have yet to be determined; hopefully those responsible will be prosecuted and convicted.
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Owner's responsibility
The owner has liability for an employee's actions under the legal theory of 'Respondeat Superior" or "Let the Master Answer" - This maxim means that a master is liable in certain cases for the wrongful acts of his servant, and a principal for those of his agent.

Black's Law Dictionary
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griffin1108 wrote:
So far what is certain is the OP had her scooter stolen. The OP received an insurance settlement for the theft and the OP was able to replace the scooter with a combination of her money and the insurance settlement. That is how things should work in the real world.
Actually, what we know is that the scooter was stolen, and the dealer paid for and received stolen property. We also know it wasn't bought at a police auction, because the police would have had a record of it's being stolen, and would have turned it over to the owner or the insurance company. It also wasn't bought at an insurance auction, because at that point there would have been paperwork from an insurance auction, not a post-it note written by an employee.

I'm sure the police will follow up, and I look forward to hearing the result. Incredibly negligent on behalf of the dealer, I would say.
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Re: Owner's responsibility
JohnF wrote:
The owner has liability for an employee's actions under the legal theory of 'Respondeat Superior" or "Let the Master Answer" - This maxim means that a master is liable in certain cases for the wrongful acts of his servant, and a principal for those of his agent.

Black's Law Dictionary
I thought that term was civil and not criminal and that the plain english phrase of being vicariously liable does not particularly indicate civil or criminal.

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An individual cannot be criminally liable for the acts of another unless he or she shares the criminal mental state (there may be some exceptions for parents of minor children), but a corporation can be criminally liable for the acts of its agents/employees.

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Quote:
Actually, what we know is that the scooter was stolen, and the dealer paid for and received stolen property. We also know it wasn't bought at a police auction, because the police would have had a record of it's being stolen, and would have turned it over to the owner or the insurance company. It also wasn't bought at an insurance auction, because at that point there would have been paperwork from an insurance auction, not a post-it note written by an employee.
In fact, what we know is this:
    - The scooter was stolen
    - The original owner reported it stolen to the police as well as the Charlottesville Vespa dealer. She gave them the VIN number, asking them to be on the lookout for it.
    - Several months later, it was spotted (by a friend of the original owner) on the premises of a Vespa dealer in Charlottesville.
    - The scooter had been (badly) repainted blue and black in an obvious attempt to conceal it's original colour.
    - The original owner went to the dealer's shop and confronted them about it.
    - The dealer claimed to have purchased it from some unidentified "guy", with whom they have done business before, who claimed to have purchased it from a city auction.
    - The police have confirmed it never went through any city auction.
    - We don't know who the unidentified guy is and have no proof that he even exists.
    - When asked for proof of purchase, "someone" at the dealership produced a lame ass, hand written post-it-note receipt which only a moron would believe is legit.
    - The original owner was paid a certain amount in compensation for the theft of her scooter but is out of pocket approximately $1,500.00
Realizing that this is a one sided story and absent of any other facts with which to draw any final conclusions ... I would say the dealer is in a very sticky situation and has a lot of splainin' to do! I am sure the police will get to the bottom of it rather quickly and I have no doubt that someone's books are going to be investigated rather thoroughly. If the mystery man exists, who knows ... the police may actually uncover a whole scooter theft ring as a result of this case!

I do not believe that this is the end of the story for the original owner despite the fact that she has been paid by the insurance company. There is still the matter of the $1,500.00 she is out of pocket and she has every right to sue "someone" for damages in small claims court. I believe she is pushing the envelop by claiming "pain and suffering" as a result of losing her scooter but then again, I never did understand US law or how the loss of an "object" might constitute pain and suffering? However, she may have a right to claim for her time and the inconvenience this whole issue has caused. I don't know.
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Generally, "pain and suffering" requires some sort of injury of a physical nature. About 10 years ago, 2 guys who were best friends were working on the railroad. One of the them had a heart attack and was sort of dragged to the side and the supervisor told the crew to keep working. Needless to say, the friend was distraught over watching his buddy die. He sued the railroad and the case eventually wound up in the Supreme Court. No basis for a suit said the court, the guy suffered no physical injury in watching his friend die.
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griffin1108 wrote:
Generally, "pain and suffering" requires some sort of injury of a physical nature. About 10 years ago, 2 guys who were best friends were working on the railroad. One of the them had a heart attack and was sort of dragged to the side and the supervisor told the crew to keep working. Needless to say, the friend was distraught over watching his buddy die. He sued the railroad and the case eventually wound up in the Supreme Court. No basis for a suit said the court, the guy suffered no physical injury in watching his friend die.
Mental anguish?

I hate when people call burglary and stealing things "victimless crimes." Anyone who has ever had their home broken into or something stolen, knows otherwise.
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Bobovespa wrote:
I had some problems getting a certificate of origin for a new Vespa from that dealer, but it was with a former owner in 2006.
Hey Whitney, sooooo sorry to hear what happened. I am the "former owner" Bobo refers to above and I tried desperately for a full year to get a title for a brand new Vespa GTS250ie that Charlottesville Vespa sold me. That dealership is never going to get straightened out. Richmond now has three Vespa dealers, including one north of town in Ashland right off the highway that should be fairly easy for you to reach, so you might want to think about bringing your business down here, even though it's a pain. Sorry. [EDIT: I just visited the new dealership in Ashland and they are the most clueless scooter dealership I've ever seen. Forget them until they at least figure out how to start a scoot. Gee.]

I hope you are able to get this situation resolved quickly. As Bobo points out, you are totally in the right, and you can prove it, so those guys should think twice unless they want to get themselves in trouble.
⚠️ Last edited by jrsjr on UTC; edited 1 time
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Quote:
He said he should have the case closed up by the end of the week.
So whittywhittybangbang ... any updates? I am really curious to see what happens in this case.
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Just because they have a license to sell bikes doesn't make them honest. Keep us posted.
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yeah i'm really curious to see what happens!

let us know
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I was a car salesman in Va. The dealer will most likely loose their license for this. Was it on the show room floor for sale? That would be really stupid of them. Contact DMV right away, cops might not get them involved.

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Um Wayne B, I guess you didn't read the whole thread. The police ARE involved and no, it wasn't on the showroom floor.
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Whitty I hope you can get this situation handled with the proper police utilization. I am glad insurance did pay you, I am glad the stolen scooter was recovered. Sorry that it happened to you like this but I believe that the insurance company and law enforcement will get the theft solved.
I am still baffled by the ignorance of buying ANY titled vehicle without a legit title in hand and a damn post it note. Seems like may be a stolen vehicle ring being run by these guys.

But good luck. and have a blast scootering again!
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Thanks for the support everyone! I haven't heard anything official yet but what I have heard is encouraging. Mums the word for now.
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Darn it. I was so excited when I saw you had posted! I am dying to know what has happened! Let us know as soon as the "gag order" is lifted.
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[url]www.dailyprogress.com/cdp/news/local/crime/article/moped_thefts_up_in_charlottesville/28019/[/url]
Quote:
Published: September 18, 2008

Moped sales have been brisk at Moto Virginia Vespa Charlottesville since the summer, said Priscilla Wilson.

Wilson, whose son owns the business on Preston Avenue, said high gas prices have prompted many young professionals and University of Virginia professors and graduate students to leave their SUVs in the driveways in place of mopeds, which can get 60 to 100 miles per gallon.

But there is a negative side to the rising sales: moped theft
Since January there have been 96 city cases involving mopeds, said Charlottesville police Sgt. Marc Brake. Because police records don't always specify what happened in every case, he could say for certain only that 35 of those incidents involved thefts, but he believes the number is much higher.

There have been 11 moped thefts in the city since Aug. 15.
Brake said some steal the mopeds for joy rides, while others take parts or sell the mopeds outright.
He said officers have been focusing more on moped thefts and have made arrests. He added that they plan some new initiatives to stem the rising moped thefts, but didn't want to elaborate.

Mostly, moped owners can use "common sense" to avoid having their ride stolen, Brake said.
Secure the mopeds, he said, and don't leave the keys in the ignition.
Can't say how much of this story is related to the issue at hand, so consume at your own risk.
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I think its great how someone (whittywhittybangbang) saw something that was wrong with the world and made a conscious effort to fix it. She got a new LX, all was well, but she had the drive to stop a (possibly) corrupt business.

I wish there were more people like you!
⚠️ Last edited by elliott on UTC; edited 1 time
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I admire her grit as well ... but she hasn't reported the results of the investigation YET and we don't know if the business is corrupt or not. Best not to make assumptions at this point but it certainly seems fishy ... at least in regards to this case.

However, although she got a new LX, she is still $1,500.00 out of pocket as a result of having her scooter stolen and that is something I imagine she will want to resolve.
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Hi all. I spoke with the detective yesterday. He said they are building a case against both the dealership and the guy they bought it from. He said it's looking good. Although he said that it wouldn't hurt the case to talk about it, I'm going to hold off going public with it (meaning notifying local media and the dmv) till he wraps up my case and has a chance to confer with other detectives on how many scooters Vespa Charlottesville has done this with. He didn't have an actual estimate yet but he did think it was a reoccuring problem.
I really appreciate all of your support. I could have just let this go but I really feel like if they weren't making the stolen scooter market profitable there might not have been 11 scooters stolen between Aug 15th and Sept 18th in Charlottesville and mine wouldn't have been one of them. (Am I reading that right from the article above? That's outrageous!)
The detective said he should have it finished up by the end of this week. The wheels are turning, albeit very slowly. I'll let you know when I hear more.
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holy crap. So glad you updated, and super glad something is being done about this. crazy.
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whittywhittybangbang wrote:
Hi all. I spoke with the detective yesterday. He said they are building a case against both the dealership and the guy they bought it from. He said it's looking good. Although he said that it wouldn't hurt the case to talk about it, I'm going to hold off going public with it (meaning notifying local media and the dmv) till he wraps up my case and has a chance to confer with other detectives on how many scooters Vespa Charlottesville has done this with. He didn't have an actual estimate yet but he did think it was a reoccuring problem.
I really appreciate all of your support. I could have just let this go but I really feel like if they weren't making the stolen scooter market profitable there might not have been 11 scooters stolen between Aug 15th and Sept 18th in Charlottesville and mine wouldn't have been one of them. (Am I reading that right from the article above? That's outrageous!)
The detective said he should have it finished up by the end of this week. The wheels are turning, albeit very slowly. I'll let you know when I hear more.
Good to hear. I'm really glad you decided to do something about this. No telling how many people would taken to town in the future by this group.
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All it takes is a climate of lack compliance for these sh*t birds to swoop in and start a real theft ring.

It's a good thing you have the fortitude to follow through with this. If you remove their ability to sell the stuff for a quick profit locally it will slow them down for a while or until they can find something else as profitable.

Hopefully the detective will catch nab the thief too. Flip him up the chain and take down the big players Razz emoticon

enjoy
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Wow! Glad to hear there is at least some progress. I sure hope that it all works out for you in the end.

If this does turn out to be a scooter theft ring, you can be very proud of yourself for sticking to your guns and taking these guys to task. Just think of all the unhappy scooterists you may be saving from a similar fate to yours!

If it turns out that the dealer really did (innocently) buy the scooter from the mystery man and accepted that ridiculous post-it-note as a receipt; I think most people would agree that his business practices are "iffy" at best!
@whaley avatar
UTC

Hooked
vespa gt 200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 276
Location: Pensacola
 
Hooked
@whaley avatar
vespa gt 200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 276
Location: Pensacola
UTC quote
Too many people would have said, "The insurance has paid me, what the heck" and let it go. I'm so glad you didn't do that. If more people would take a stand a lot of this could be stopped. We all end up paying for it (higher insurance rates) when people "just let it slide". You didn't do that and I'm proud of you. Can't wait to see how this turns out.
UTC

Member
2009 Yamaha TMAX
Joined: UTC
Posts: 46
Location: Charlottesville, VA
 
Member
2009 Yamaha TMAX
Joined: UTC
Posts: 46
Location: Charlottesville, VA
UTC quote
*post removed for legal reasons*
⚠️ Last edited by elliott on UTC; edited 1 time
@whaley avatar
UTC

Hooked
vespa gt 200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 276
Location: Pensacola
 
Hooked
@whaley avatar
vespa gt 200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 276
Location: Pensacola
UTC quote
"Which one?" Wow. This guy sounds like he needs to loose his dealership.
@zteverhart avatar
UTC

Enthusiast
06' GTS250ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 94
Location: Daly City, CA
 
Enthusiast
@zteverhart avatar
06' GTS250ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 94
Location: Daly City, CA
UTC quote
Looks like someone is going to get called in to testify That's some pretty damning evidence.
@redxluckyxcharms avatar
UTC

Hooked
2009 Siena Ivory GTV 250ie "Sasha"
Joined: UTC
Posts: 178
Location: Indianapolis
 
Hooked
@redxluckyxcharms avatar
2009 Siena Ivory GTV 250ie "Sasha"
Joined: UTC
Posts: 178
Location: Indianapolis
UTC quote
dude "which one?" That is rediculous!!!! It's almost funny how that worked out. Seriously go get this guy. This cannot happen to good people. I wish there was something I could do to make sure this guy goes down. bah. apparently I'm angry. hahahaa
@jcwhitney avatar
UTC

Hooked
Lambretta SX, Stella, Honda
Joined: UTC
Posts: 300
Location: USA
 
Hooked
@jcwhitney avatar
Lambretta SX, Stella, Honda
Joined: UTC
Posts: 300
Location: USA
UTC quote
Elliott:
Suggest you report that conversation to the Police.
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