@lone_airedale avatar
UTC

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GT200
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Location: Oregon
 
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@lone_airedale avatar
GT200
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UTC quote
The only real long term solution I've found is a new clutch bell
@silver_streak avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 Vespa LX 190, 2011 LXV150ie
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@silver_streak avatar
2007 Vespa LX 190, 2011 LXV150ie
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Location: Annapolis, MD, USA
UTC quote
lone_airedale wrote:
The only real long term solution I've found is a new clutch bell
As I've stated before, the real long-term solution is to habitually make more aggressive starts once the clutch has been cleaned up.

The heat glazing and wear dust occur in the first place mainly because the clutch is allowed to slip too long during wimpy take-offs where there are barely enough revs applied to keep the clutch engaged. More aggressive starts lock up the clutch almost instantly and don't allow heat to build up and frictional wear to occur.

These scooters were made by Italians... ride like one!
@iangt200 avatar
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Vespa GT200
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@iangt200 avatar
Vespa GT200
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UTC quote
I ride mine hard and often make aggressive starts and sometimes full throttle to 70 on the dual carriage way for me, I still ended up with clutch shudder, it seems to be from times when you are in heavy traffic and an aggressive start would see you up the backside of an Audi.

I took mine into a garage for something else and they only charged 20 quid to sand it and give it a good clean out and it's back to new again. I'd recommend either doing that yourself or take it in to be done, then perhaps make it part of an annual service if you do a lot of city riding.

What I also think helps is cleaning out the little air filter at the front of the cvt, mine has had what looked like a nest of dried grass in it. That vent when clear sucks air through and blows over the belt cooling it and blows clutch dust out the back. If you give the bike some revs on the centre stand and out hand over that vent you will feel it sucking in the air.
@matt6974 avatar
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@matt6974 avatar
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UTC quote
Just an update to anyone with the shudder, it's true what those in the know have said- it only takes an hour or so to take it apart and clean it properly and it's worthwhile.

I used brake cleaner first but it actually made it worse with the clutch audibly slipping as it didn't before. It must have been pretty glazed.

The bike is so much nicer to ride again now
@lx125man avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Vespa LX 125
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Molto Verboso
@lx125man avatar
Vespa LX 125
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UTC quote
matt6974 wrote:
Just an update to anyone with the shudder, it's true what those in the know have said- it only takes an hour or so to take it apart and clean it properly and it's worthwhile.

I used brake cleaner first but it actually made it worse with the clutch audibly slipping as it didn't before. It must have been pretty glazed.

The bike is so much nicer to ride again now
Just cleaned mine up again while I was in there fitting new rollers! It is nice to know that it'll be good for another few months of hard commuting 😉
@lx125man avatar
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Molto Verboso
Vespa LX 125
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Molto Verboso
@lx125man avatar
Vespa LX 125
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UTC quote
Hasn't lasted.

I only used scotch brite this time as opposed to previous occasions that I have used course emry cloth. Wish I had stuck to the emry cloth as I'm going to need to do it again.

As a side, has anyone ever measured the internal diameter of the clutch bell and found it outside tolerance? Wondered whether all the rubbing down every so often has killed it off. Mine does appear to have some pretty nice score marks.
@lx125man avatar
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Molto Verboso
Vespa LX 125
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Molto Verboso
@lx125man avatar
Vespa LX 125
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UTC quote
Think I'm just going to go for a new clutch bell. Then look after it every few months. Does a new one have to be scuffed up or can it go straight on?
@jimc avatar
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The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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@jimc avatar
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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UTC quote
A new one can go straight on - and it certainly sorted out K's LX, which had a second-hand one fitted. Not a grumble or groan from it over the last 8-10,000 miles or so.
@ed_h avatar
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Piaggio BV 250
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@ed_h avatar
Piaggio BV 250
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UTC quote
Could it be the belt???
A very experienced Aprila rider and former scooter dealer tells me it's a worn belt. It wears down too narrow and sticks too far down in the groove. Says belts on the bigger bikes are ready for a change at about 10k KM. What say yee???

I did the Brak-Clen, I did the sandpaper to the bell. I still get the judder and strangling-sea lion. Aggressive starts are not an option in the kind of traffic Seattle has... creepy-crawly one minute, 50MPH the next, then creep along again to wait for the bridge to close.
@lx125man avatar
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Molto Verboso
Vespa LX 125
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Molto Verboso
@lx125man avatar
Vespa LX 125
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UTC quote
Belts brand new and OEM. I'll get a new bell on order. Can the old ones be machined down a touch on a lathe to bring it back true or would that probably take it well outside of the correct ID?
@nickmetcalf avatar
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LX50
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@nickmetcalf avatar
LX50
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UTC quote
I've been reading the feed about the good 'ol clutch shudder and have a question. What do you do if you have a LX 50 and don't have a chrome disc to take off? Is it a case of taking the whole cover off on the side?
@lx125man avatar
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Molto Verboso
Vespa LX 125
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@lx125man avatar
Vespa LX 125
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UTC quote
nickmetcalf wrote:
I've been reading the feed about the good 'ol clutch shudder and have a question. What do you do if you have a LX 50 and don't have a chrome disc to take off? Is it a case of taking the whole cover off on the side?
I would say yes, is the clutch nut on the inside of the case?
@tazmo avatar
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2007 GT 200L
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@tazmo avatar
2007 GT 200L
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UTC quote
Clutch Shudder & Glazing
Reading this from stem to stern and about how the Vespa clutch is really a robust one and that periodical cleaning and scuffing along with squirts of some sort of brake cleaner in all the holes cleans and replenishs the 'moisture' of the pads and goin' ahead and rompin' it a little from the initial get go goes a long way. I have seen countless people ease off like they're going to break something or afraid of being 'slung' off; reminds me of riding the clutch when learning to drive a stick shift or hanging on the clutch on hills rather than using the brake pedal, that also puts a glaze on the clutch diaphram....same principle...to little pressure while engaging creates a slick surface. Think of it as buffing instead of mating or grabbing the surfaces to create grip. I've noticed better initial throttle and less noise by giving it a little extra from jump over the long run on this used one I have that had that annoying deal from the previous owner. This whole post is a good read I think for those that were fearing the worst. Kinda like seeing your dog eat grass and fearing the worst when all it is is a natural phenomenom.
@ed_h avatar
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Piaggio BV 250
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Piaggio BV 250
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UTC quote
Shifting -- Shiftless
Ha, I find myself reverting to motorcycle style. I romp it in "first" ie get it moving without judder, then back off like I'm shifting to "second." Really works pretty good and seems just like old times.

That said, in talking to Aprilla and Kymco riders, they say "it's the belt." I'm gonna do a belt and drum change. Will post results.
@tazmo avatar
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2007 GT 200L
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@tazmo avatar
2007 GT 200L
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UTC quote
Re: Shifting -- Shiftless
@ ED H ''I romp it in "first" ie get it moving without judder, then back off like I'm shifting to "second." Really works pretty good and seems just like old times''.

That's a good way of putting it Nerd emoticon
@keltis99 avatar
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GTS 300 super (US v.)
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Location: Brussels, Belgium
 
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@keltis99 avatar
GTS 300 super (US v.)
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UTC quote
i can also confirm that i used the regular (Caramba Bremsenreiniger Sprühdosebrand) brake cleaner and it solved the clutch judder problem instantaneously. I have GT 125L from 2005 with 14k km on the clock. New belt and rollers were fitted 2 months ago.
Thanks for the advice!
UTC

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GTS 300ie & MP3 500 Sport
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Location: PH
 
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GTS 300ie & MP3 500 Sport
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UTC quote
putting in my 2 cents, i have a 300 that has 6K in it and started having the shudder as early as 2k. I'm on the heavy side (250lbs) and where i live, it's also pretty dusty. i used to clean the clutch every 500km just so the shudder will disappear - a bit of an inconvenience having to open the darned thing every now and then but still a pleasure as i'm a bit of a tinkerer.

After having 4K in it, i decided to upgrade some of the transmission parts which has since eliminated the shudder. Upgrades to wit: changed stock Variator to the CVT FR4, Clutch to the Malossi Maxi Delta Clutch & Bell with White Springs and configured to max Tension, changed to a stiffer White Torque Spring, and added the yellow Torsion Controller.

Been riding it and apart from it performing a whole lot better, the shudder has not returned since.
@motovista avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
GT 2.4
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@motovista avatar
GT 2.4
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UTC quote
One thing I noticed on a GTS we had in that was shuddering a lot is that the shoes were worn unevenly. By that I mean that the wear on each pad was not even, and there were height inconsistencies on the bike. This was on a GTS 250 with about 6000 miles and grooves in both plates of the variator.
⬆️    About 2 years elapsed    ⬇️
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GTS150
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GTS150
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UTC quote
Re: That good 'ol clutch shudder...
Menhir wrote:
I think I've got it.

At low RPM's as I move slowly from a standstill to speed, I get that grunching sound/shudder for a moment or two until everything gets itself together. My belt and rollers are relatively new. I changed them just before the winter set it. If I accelerate quickly, no sound. Nothing unusual at speed either.

So I'm assuming the problem is with the clutch pads/bell engaging smoothly.

It's more of an annoyance than anything...still...

Before I take things apart, my search results tell me to blow out the dust, check the inside of the clutch bell for any unusual wear, and abrade it a bit with green scotchbrite pads. Anything else? Should I do anything to the clutch pads?

I've also come across some people saying if the bell is out of round, that could cause a similar problem. How common is that?

Thanks.
My New GTS150 also having the same thing. This can be happen on a new Vespa?

Please help!!!!!


Thanks
@sunburst avatar
UTC

Hooked
2009 Vespa LX 150, Moto Guzzi V7II Racer
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Location: Redondo Beach, California
 
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@sunburst avatar
2009 Vespa LX 150, Moto Guzzi V7II Racer
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Location: Redondo Beach, California
UTC quote
I just tried the Brakleen and it worked great.
@wleuthold avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2006 Vespa GT (Rocket): 2005 Vespa GT (Razzo): 2007 Vespa GT (Vanessa): 2009 Yamaha Zuma 125: 2018 Yamaha Xmax (Big Ugly), 2023 Vespa GTS300 (Ghost)
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@wleuthold avatar
2006 Vespa GT (Rocket): 2005 Vespa GT (Razzo): 2007 Vespa GT (Vanessa): 2009 Yamaha Zuma 125: 2018 Yamaha Xmax (Big Ugly), 2023 Vespa GTS300 (Ghost)
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UTC quote
I had the shudder on Rocket many times when it was young. But I have not felt it in years on any of my GT's. Maybe it is because I always start fast, but all I know is it has completely gone away.

I just replaced the belt on Rocket last weekend (it broke while on a work ride and I had to leave it at a client's house for three days)

The only thing I did with the 70,000 mile+ clutch bell was wipe the black dust out with a rag. No shudder at all before or since.
⬆️    About 1 month elapsed    ⬇️
@ed_h avatar
UTC

Hooked
Piaggio BV 250
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Location: Seattle, WA
 
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@ed_h avatar
Piaggio BV 250
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Location: Seattle, WA
UTC quote
The Judder Is Gone!
And so is $450! Finally broke down and took Buzz to Vespa of Seattle for what may have been the long overdue 6 K mile service.

The mech there is a serious Piaggio trained guy and knew about the judder. With a new belt (worn down several mm's), rollers (worn & flat spotted) and clutch bell (oddly warped) the low speed take-off judder is gone.

It may be my imagination, but the bike also seems a bit slower on take off. I'm thinking the worn rollers were lighter so moved out quicker. Anyway, a Honda 900cc CBR blew me off today which usually don't happen. Oh well.
@huffmandon avatar
UTC

Member
Used to have P150, GS180, P200, GTS300, and now GTS300HPE,
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Posts: 19
Location: Sunnvyale, Ca now Crowley, Texas.
 
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@huffmandon avatar
Used to have P150, GS180, P200, GTS300, and now GTS300HPE,
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Location: Sunnvyale, Ca now Crowley, Texas.
UTC quote
Clutch shudder
zero o wrote:
quattrovalvole wrote:
Menhir wrote:
OK...I did it.
Just before I left for work this afternoon I used the Brakleen.

It worked!

The shudder disappeared. I rode 57 miles before I got back home, smooth as silk all the way. I never expected such a drastic difference.

Thanks!
Cool. Just don't do any more "slow starts," or the clutch pads will glaze and the shudder will come back. Starting "normally" will prevent this.
Newbie question here .. what is a "slow start" vs a "normal start" . Thanks
I had this problem after a very long bumper to bumper ride through SF. Will the brake cleaner..dh
UTC

Hooked
2015 Vespa Primavera 150, 2005 Vespa PX 150 (Malossi 166)
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2015 Vespa Primavera 150, 2005 Vespa PX 150 (Malossi 166)
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UTC quote
My 2015 Primavera has done this since mile zero. I've also had the transmission apart to install new rollers, and cleaning the components did not do anything to mitigate the issue. I've just gotten used to it. It sounds like all Primaveras and Sprints (150) do this as well.

My previous LX50 2v didn't do it though.
@silver_streak avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 Vespa LX 190, 2011 LXV150ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8749
Location: Annapolis, MD, USA
 
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@silver_streak avatar
2007 Vespa LX 190, 2011 LXV150ie
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Posts: 8749
Location: Annapolis, MD, USA
UTC quote
Re: The Judder Is Gone!
Ed H wrote:
It may be my imagination, but the bike also seems a bit slower on take off. I'm thinking the worn rollers were lighter so moved out quicker. Anyway, a Honda 900cc CBR blew me off today which usually don't happen. Oh well.
Rollers moving out quicker would actually hurt acceleration as that would be putting you into higher gear ratios more quickly. More likely the worn, flat-spotted rollers would hang up and NOT move out so quickly, giving you faster acceleration because they kept you in low gear longer. The wear was almost certainly on the plastic part of the roller which has almost insignificant mass. Nearly all the mass is in the metal core, and that dictates the centrifugal force.

Are you sure the tech installed the same weight rollers?
@ed_h avatar
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Piaggio BV 250
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Location: Seattle, WA
 
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@ed_h avatar
Piaggio BV 250
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Location: Seattle, WA
UTC quote
Re: The Judder Is Gone!
Silver Streak wrote:
Ed H wrote:
It may be my imagination, but the bike also seems a bit slower on take off. I'm thinking the worn rollers were lighter so moved out quicker. Anyway, a Honda 900cc CBR blew me off today which usually don't happen. Oh well.
Rollers moving out quicker would actually hurt acceleration as that would be putting you into higher gear ratios more quickly. More likely the worn, flat-spotted rollers would hang up and NOT move out so quickly, giving you faster acceleration because they kept you in low gear longer. The wear was almost certainly on the plastic part of the roller which has almost insignificant mass. Nearly all the mass is in the metal core, and that dictates the centrifugal force.

Are you sure the tech installed the same weight rollers?
Sure, you're right about hanging up -vs- lighter. Thinking backwards. Not really sure about same weight rollers. He put in standard rollers but I don't know for certain what was in before and didn't think to ask. It's still plenty quick off the start and I'm having trouble e getting used to how smooth it is. Another interesting symptom that bares out the "hanging up" is that it releases to free wheel earlier now when coasting to a stop--something else that take getting used to.
@limitedliabilitygirl avatar
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Member
LX 150
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Location: Brooklyn
 
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@limitedliabilitygirl avatar
LX 150
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Location: Brooklyn
UTC quote
Catching up on some reading about this problem for my next wrenching project. I dearly wish it were possible to fast start in NYC traffic but the reality is that unless I'm at the very front of every red light, the cars ahead of me are all going to start at the WORST POSSIBLE RATE OF ACCELERATION as compared to where I want to be in terms of RPMs. If I keep a constant distance from the car ahead of me, I could spend a long time in the shudder zone before traffic gets moving...until the NEXT red light.

Whiiiiiich is a good defense for getting out ahead of the cars at a red.
@baba12 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
2018 Vespa 300 GTS Touring
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Posts: 1316
Location: NYC
 
Molto Verboso
@baba12 avatar
2018 Vespa 300 GTS Touring
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1316
Location: NYC
UTC quote
There isn't a real fix for the problem, I deal with it and notice it in driving in the city during rush hour to be something wherein between the radiator fan howling and the weird sea lion gurgle shudder it makes for getting to turn some heads.
Also when I have a pillion rider it becomes more pronounced.
Using Brakeleen helps a bit but the trouble comes back after a few days..
As someone mentioned it maybe worth it to buy a new clutch bell, thinking of the Malossi bell for $60 maybe worth it if it can provide shudder and sea lion gurgle free service for say 10,000 miles that would be cool.
We MV users should see if we can get a bulk discount on parts like the clutch bell from Scooterwest or SIP.. I am sure there is a way to work a deal out..
@matt6974 avatar
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Yamaha MT-07
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@matt6974 avatar
Yamaha MT-07
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Location: London
UTC quote
Going back a while but in the end I fitted a new Malossi clutch bell and it seemed to solve my problem. I expect hard acceleration helps also but not always practical on busy roads.
@silver_streak avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 Vespa LX 190, 2011 LXV150ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8749
Location: Annapolis, MD, USA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@silver_streak avatar
2007 Vespa LX 190, 2011 LXV150ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8749
Location: Annapolis, MD, USA
UTC quote
matt6974 wrote:
I expect hard acceleration helps also but not always practical on busy roads.
You don't really need to accelerate hard once the clutch is engaged and the bike is moving. Just give it hard throttle on takeoff to ensure positive clutch engagement and then back off.

The problem comes from taking off with barely enough throttle to engage the clutch, which causes the clutch to slip and heat up.
@greg531 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
63 GL 150, 05 Typhoon, 09 Beo 200
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Posts: 1725
Location: Grand Pothole Rapids, Michigan
 
Molto Verboso
@greg531 avatar
63 GL 150, 05 Typhoon, 09 Beo 200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1725
Location: Grand Pothole Rapids, Michigan
UTC quote
I replaced my clutch with a Malossi clutch, and it seemed to work on my Scarabeo 200....the only problem is the bell was the wrong size....anyone want a new bell?
@baba12 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
2018 Vespa 300 GTS Touring
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1316
Location: NYC
 
Molto Verboso
@baba12 avatar
2018 Vespa 300 GTS Touring
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1316
Location: NYC
UTC quote
What is the model of the Bell? If it will fit on a 2010 GTS 300 I wont mind getting it. I plan on changing the bell sometime in October before it gets cold.
@greg531 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
63 GL 150, 05 Typhoon, 09 Beo 200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1725
Location: Grand Pothole Rapids, Michigan
 
Molto Verboso
@greg531 avatar
63 GL 150, 05 Typhoon, 09 Beo 200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1725
Location: Grand Pothole Rapids, Michigan
UTC quote
baba12 wrote:
What is the model of the Bell? If it will fit on a 2010 GTS 300 I wont mind getting it. I plan on changing the bell sometime in October before it gets cold.
https://scooterpartsco.com/aprilia-scarabeo-parts/aprilia-scarabeo-200-parts/malossi-mhr-maxi-delta-clutch-system-vespa-piaggio

Here is where I got it from....the clutch fit great, the bell, if you blow the picture up, it has a little half inch rise in the top end of it, and was too tall for my Scarabeo 200... even when my model was listed....So, I use the original bell....
So look to see if your bell looks like what is pictured....don't go by the list....
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