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Hooked
Had a Piaggio MP3 250ie Graphite Black
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UTC quote
I've been looking around sites for performance mods after my strangled sealion issues.

My searching deviated to scooterwest, and I found the listing for the Malossi Torque Driver.

So what the heck is this part for?

Does it form one side of the driven pulley? How does it differ from stock?

The listing states that it will improve hill climbing and 2-up riding. How?

I'm asking these questions here because I can only find product description info on the internet, and no "theory of operation" style info.

I need to know the *why* about something before I fork out US$300 for it. You know what I mean?

So if any of you can help me out, I'd really appreciate it.
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Hooked
Had a Piaggio MP3 250ie Graphite Black
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Hooked
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I found this on the Malossi UK site. I'm still trying to work out how it improves everything so greatly though.

http://www.malossiuk.com/help/torque.pdf
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mp3 500
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If I'm not mistaken, the torque driver provides a downshift-like capability on CVTs. A sudden change in rpm will make the TD bite on the belt, which allows the revs to go higher, and the bike to accelerate more briskly.

I don't think a torque driver will solve your problem. Sounds to me like more of a clutch issue...
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Looking at the diagrams and reading the material, I don't see what the improvement is over the stock part. There may be a different cam action than the original, but from an engineering background, can't see that it works any different than the original part.
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Hooked
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Hooked
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UTC quote
larry8 wrote:
Looking at the diagrams and reading the material, I don't see what the improvement is over the stock part. There may be a different cam action than the original, but from an engineering background, can't see that it works any different than the original part.
But it *has* to larry8; it costs $300 so it's gotta do something right
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I think you can judge the value for money by the way they push Malossi Kevlar Belts in their mis-translated blurb. Well don't buy them just because you think you are now getting a Kevlar belt - the Piaggio OEM belts are all very high quality Kevlar belts in their own right, and received wisdom over the years from both owners and dealers is that they usually last longer than any third-party ones.

Back to the clutch bits. The clutch, driven-pulley spring and spiral all need to be matched to the variator, so if using one of these perhaps one would want to add a Malossi variator. Hmm... There have been numerous threads on MV with stories of the Malossi rollers becoming mis-shapen well before one would expect the OEM ones to.

I can say that their performance parts provide huge fun for youngsters on their 50cc scooters, and keep dealers provided with a steady succession of broken bikes to mend.

Back to the strangled sea-lion. This occurs when the clutch bell and shoes have become somewhat glazed (as they all do with time) and the bike is ridden in slow-moving traffic for a while. The clutch will be slipping to some extent, especially if some rear brake is applied at the same time for full control at very slow speeds. The clutch heats up and its biting point becomes erratic. This can produce judder and squealing. It is more often found on heavier scooters or those with heavier riders.

Slow speed control may be more problematic with a clutch that has a more positive and immediate biting point (Malossi?), as they are designed for a fast take-off every time (e.g. on the track), not limping along in congested traffic. IMHO the best way to reduce clutch judder and noise is to change the variator end first. Either some slightly lighter weights, or Dr Pulley sliders, or perhaps the J Costa.

Just musings - feel free to tear to bits.
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mp3 500
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+1 on the Malossi critique. Long ago I installed most of the Malossi catalog on a 50cc two stroke, including the torque driver. Other than the 70cc cylinder (there's no replacement for displacement), the carb and the variator, most of the pieces offered little improvement. The Malossi stuff is generally a solution in search of a problem.

As for a solution to your problem, I've always found a good cleaning of the clutch bell and clutch (and the rest of the transmission case, while you have the cover off anyway) usually makes things better. Blow out the dust, then wipe and degrease everything. Good luck.
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Very informative thread, as I've come to expect. Thanks.
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R.I.P. ----K.I.T.T.500, Agent Orange (400)
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I agree...very informative. I wonder if some of the third party madness comes from people, like myself, who have had it put into their brains from the auto world that after market parts generally offer the 'chance' at better performance. Good examples are the Hemi carbs, special exhaust systems, etc. I'm beginning to understand from the conversations on this forum that doesn't translate the same way to the scooter industry. I recently had my belt/weight changed on my variator(see 'what the inside of a 500 at 9K looks like' thread). The mechanic, myself, and OAD were all simply AMAZED at how little wear and tear the OEM belt and weights had. I really just brought it in out of worry cos the service light had come in and I just KNEW the belt could snap at any time. Now, though, after that look inside and the discussions on here, I feel more confident than ever in the quality of the OEM parts. If I do ever replace items, it will either be simply for looks or because it has gotten great reviews from fellow mp3ers.
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Hooked
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
 
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Had a Piaggio MP3 250ie Graphite Black
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
UTC quote
schifo wrote:
+1 on the Malossi critique. Long ago I installed most of the Malossi catalog on a 50cc two stroke, including the torque driver. Other than the 70cc cylinder (there's no replacement for displacement), the carb and the variator, most of the pieces offered little improvement. The Malossi stuff is generally a solution in search of a problem.

As for a solution to your problem, I've always found a good cleaning of the clutch bell and clutch (and the rest of the transmission case, while you have the cover off anyway) usually makes things better. Blow out the dust, then wipe and degrease everything. Good luck.
Hi schifo

I went to all the trouble of doing this very thing to my scooter, and for my efforts, I got 3 days of trouble-free operation.

https://modernvespa.com/forum/topic48187

This was after I sanded the bell and pads to remove the blue mirror finish.

So for only three days improvement, you can understand that I am looking for a longer term solution.
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The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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UTC quote
Seriously, look at your riding style and road conditions, and perhaps at some more frequent variator/roller checks and possibly also at some after-market 'solutions'. When were the rollers last checked/changed?
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Hooked
Had a Piaggio MP3 250ie Graphite Black
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
 
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Had a Piaggio MP3 250ie Graphite Black
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
UTC quote
jimc wrote:
I think you can judge the value for money by the way they push Malossi Kevlar Belts in their mis-translated blurb. Well don't buy them just because you think you are now getting a Kevlar belt - the Piaggio OEM belts are all very high quality Kevlar belts in their own right, and received wisdom over the years from both owners and dealers is that they usually last longer than any third-party ones.

Back to the clutch bits. The clutch, driven-pulley spring and spiral all need to be matched to the variator, so if using one of these perhaps one would want to add a Malossi variator. Hmm... There have been numerous threads on MV with stories of the Malossi rollers becoming mis-shapen well before one would expect the OEM ones to.

I can say that their performance parts provide huge fun for youngsters on their 50cc scooters, and keep dealers provided with a steady succession of broken bikes to mend.

Back to the strangled sea-lion. This occurs when the clutch bell and shoes have become somewhat glazed (as they all do with time) and the bike is ridden in slow-moving traffic for a while. The clutch will be slipping to some extent, especially if some rear brake is applied at the same time for full control at very slow speeds. The clutch heats up and its biting point becomes erratic. This can produce judder and squealing. It is more often found on heavier scooters or those with heavier riders.

Slow speed control may be more problematic with a clutch that has a more positive and immediate biting point (Malossi?), as they are designed for a fast take-off every time (e.g. on the track), not limping along in congested traffic. IMHO the best way to reduce clutch judder and noise is to change the variator end first. Either some slightly lighter weights, or Dr Pulley sliders, or perhaps the J Costa.

Just musings - feel free to tear to bits.
It seems that once your clutch bell has got the glazing, even if you attempt to remedy the problem, you should just resign yourself to the fact that the Sealion is here to stay.

The Dr Pulley HiT clutch and Clutch Bell (which has better ventilation slots which keep temps as low as possible) seem to be the way to go. I believe larry8 has some experience with them.

I think the sudden appearance of the Sealion on my bike (installed at 5000KM - now 6800 on the odo), is directly related to putting 13gm Dr Pulley sliders in the variator.

While the take-off is improved with the heavier weights, the engine revs higher for longer when you take off. Particularly when you are carrying a pillion. Add this extra revving up over 1000KM, and you would be getting significantly more friction heat generated than if you were using the OEM 11.5 roller weights.

So to balance out the equation, I think installing the Dr Pulley HiT clutch would equalise the friction by not letting the clutch spin so much during the initial revving phase of takeoff. The clutch would bite in harder to the bell, therefore reducing the spin and subsequent friction heat.

That's my theory anyhow.

Of course, loosing a bit of rider/pillion weight wouldn't hurt either JimC
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Take-off is surely improved with lighter weights. The engine spins faster before the variator squeezes on the belt, and the clutch only receives the extra spin at a higher belt speed (quicker spin) - so a more controlled and immediate 'bite'. That's what happens with the J Costa on the 500 - yes I'm aware others have problems with take-up with the 400.
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UTC quote
jimc wrote:
Seriously, look at your riding style and road conditions, and perhaps at some more frequent variator/roller checks and possibly also at some after-market 'solutions'. When were the rollers last checked/changed?
I had the Dr Pulley's installed in April/May (from memory), so it has been 3 months approx since the new ones were installed.

At the moment, it's a quick ride into town (school holidays), but when its not I'm in bumper-to-bumper traffic the whole way. This is when the problems started, so it is directly related to slow riding.

I'm a bit sheepish about filtering, which is technically illegal here in Brisbane, but it doesn't stop other riders who do it frequently. They often do it in moving traffic, which is totally dangerous, and really makes me angry to see because they are giving the responsible riders a bad name.

A police officer told me that "it is illegal to filter, and we will fine you $50 and a licence point, but we have to actually catch you in the act". This is why so many riders over here do it.

I only filter when the lights up ahead of me are red, and I can see a clear path to the front of the queue. Which is rare because the cagers here don't like bikes filtering, and usually block your way through the queue.
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Then that's your problem. Filter like the rest do, get your laws changed, and get rid of the sealion. The 'sealion' story is actualy quite a good one to throw at those who could change the laws - it is similar to the 'air-cooling' problems that got it sorted for California.

I'm interested to know exactly where in your highway code they proscribe overtaking while part or all of your vehicle is in the lane that the overtaken vehicle is in. For 'filtering' is only overtaking.

C'mon, get a MAG group going over there!
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I can't relate to the "sealion" noise as neither my X9 nor MP3-400 had/has it.
I don't think the Dr Pulley sliders are related to it either, but my observation is only based on my MP3-400.
To me, it appears to be a clutch problem not a variator problem.

I wonder if anyone who has the J Costa variator has this problem too.
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I would go back to OEM, or even lighter, rollers and see what happens. I've been counseled that the OEMs tend to choose rollers on the heavy side to begin with (fuel economy, perhaps), and unless you fit a notoriously low end pipe you should never, ever go heavier.

It's also cheaper and faster than replacing the clutch and wing bell.

Good luck.
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