Modern Vespa

I did the unthinkable, I ran out of two stroke oil and I don't need to explain the rest. I was riding on the Freeway doing about 80 Km/h or 50 mph and my back wheel lock up causing a severe fishtail to the left and thinking "Wtf!!!" Thinking that motorist behind me will slow down and give me some space, not a chance!!! This world is @#$^. Anyways, I kept my cool the whole time and manage to control lock wheel and the skid off the freeway. As a potentially life threatening, dangerous and retarded as it was, it was kind of fun!!!

Everything still works except now that I lost compression in the cylinder and it won't start. I guess now I have the perfect excuse to upgrade. I have already installed the Sito plus with 103 jets on my 2005 Vespa PX 150.

I have been on the net researching and so far I found unsatisfying, limited detailed and information on each cylinder kit that would give me the best educated choice. What I want is a high quality, bolt add on cylinder kit that will give me smooth, fun day in day out, daily forgiving and useable power and torque for mostly city, hilly riding and traffic; and to occasionally get me up to and slightly past hwy speeds to a keep up traffic of a cruising at top speed at about 60 -70 mph; along with a trouble free reliability. I do not want a hot, stressed out kit or set up that will burn out my engine and requires machining to get the most out of the kit. Also, I don't want to be stuck andforce into using expensive, high quality synthetic only, 2 stroke oil or/and high octane fuel. I always used mid-grade. Also, another reason I want a bolt on is that if I should sell my Limited Edition 05 PX 150, the next owner has an option to convert it back to stock. Is my criteria is asking too much and is my thinking being unreasonable and unrealistic?

This is how I narrowed it down. I do not want a standard basic cylinder kit for my three port that only get its performance by increasing its ccm by 20%, so the reliable DR is out. I want to increase the ccm but also with a high quality and an exceptionally reliable, proven designed and engineered kit. Polini 177 and Molossi 166 are a hot racing, high performance kit. that are designed, focus and are happiest at the higher end power band; best suitable for racing or an aggressive riding. Also from SIP Scootering, a too pricy $587 US QUATTRINI 172 M1X cylinder kit, is suppose to leave the other brands in the dust, but then I suspect that it is a hot, full race design.

Which now leaves me with Pinasco 177 aluminum Cylinder Kit? Pinasco is advertised as the ultimate Vespa 3 Port Cylinder Kit and claiming 12.5 hp, roughly the same output as the Molossi; however Pinasco claims not to be as aggressively ported as the Malossi 166cc or the Polini 177cc, but is a much higher quality product with longer lifespan; it has been discribed as an ideal, hefty touring kit with lots of torque and absolute longevity, I think they are saying that it has a wide and useable power band, not narrowly focus at the racing top end, with lower motor stress. If so, then this is exactly what I am looking for. The advertised kit consists of a Ghilardoni Aluminum jug with Nicasil lined bore and a top notch ASSO piston. I have no idea or knowledge of its rated quality, but it sound good to me.

Just from reading, you guess it, I want to purchase the Pinasco 177 cylinder kit, because of longer lifespan and seemed to be understress and cooler running, at least compared to Molossi and others. By the way, I was just on Pinasco website and they are bringing back and claiming a much improved classic cast iron 175 cylinder kit. Hmmm.

Ok, what do you think? Am I on the right track

For now the cylinder kit will be match with a stock SI 20/20 oil injection (103 jets) and a Sito plus exhaust. If I must, I am willing to upgrade the carburetor, only if nesscessary and only if it is an oil injection. By the way, what do you think of the trick out Vortex modified carburetor? It seems a sound match for the upgrade kit; or is it a waste of money. I am also looking into a T5 Carburetor.

Any clean and respectful repliy will be greatly appreciated

Thank you and best regards

OK I am done.

I'll let others chime in as to what kit to get.

As for your soft-seize, however, might I suggest grabbing a fist full of clutch.

That would have freed up your rear tire to rotate again, certainly would have let you keep more speed as you coasted, letting you choose to do a more controlled stop (hopefully without the risk of a rear-end prang).

It's not a bad idea if you're at all unsure of the engine overheating or running dry to keep two fingers on the clutch.

Having soft-seized twice myself (once for fuel starvation because of a wonky fuel tap and once for over-heating because of faulty timing or jetting after a rebuild), I feel your pain.

A couple of weeks ago I lost all ignition because tolerances were just a bit off on a new stator I installed, and the flywheel rubbed into the wiring. While that didn't lead to a rear wheel lock, grabbing the clutch immediately let me coast it a relatively long way and signal (with the right hand, of course!) to move two lanes over and pull over safely in morning traffic.

I'm glad to hear you're okay and let me know what route you end up going and what carb and jetting you use. I might eventually do the same for my own 3 port 150.

You should be able to get it bored out,
Then get a bigger piston.

I wouldn't go for the bigger kit.

The expense might be a bit more than you'd expect for the kit.

You are allowed to bore out your cylinder at least twice before upgrading.
(At least that's what I heard anyways)

Thank you, Excellent reply and very good advice. I figure that part out after when I realized what the cause was. Also, I had accepted every advice from other local scooter riders who were so willing to share there experiences and thoughts. I will let you know. It might be not so bad that my PX may only need an over size rings. Though, I sure like a bit more power to haul my 330lb butt around the city, so an upgrade kit looks very appealing and most probable.

Best regards

My g/f has an '05 PX150 with a 166 and 24/24 carburetor upgrade. I think she also has a Sito on it. The thing is now a brute and moves out fast. Way faster than the stock cylinder and carb set up. Does 75 on her Garmin with no problems. My 2-cents.



SDHVAC

i am not familiar with the 150 set ups,but would like to add that the mally is bullet proof and great at speed on the freeway,my 210 would pull at 70 like a tractor.

the pinasco is a beautifull product,bullet proof.

what i hear is to not stroke the crank.

stay with a standard length,otherwise the bearings take a beating at high revs(reference oopsclunkthud)

whatever you decide,remember you get what you pay for(reference greasy125)

keep us up to date

Thanks Jimmyb865

Hi to all who are interested

After a few months of searching and waiting for parts, and spending many unknown hours in reading post and contacts. I have completed my first stage and began my break in. My goal is to achieve a very satisflying sport and touring Vespa.

Stage 1
2005 Vespa PX 150 Canadian Series (Identical to the USA model except for the exclusive paint color and badge

- Pinasco 177 Au cylinder kit and I followed the manufacture instructions and recommendations. For modern PX150 with the e-start, it is necessary to remove .5mm-1.0mm on the cylinder where the starter gear is in contact. These instructions were emailed to me by the Pinasco staff, that task took about 20 min labor.

- Sito plus

- Stock 20/20 SI Carb reconfigured to Pinasco recommendation, I change the Atomizer to BE3-160 and change main jet to 112 (for sea level). Pinasco staff advised 108-110-112-114 depending on altitude.

Sport brake pad and shoes.

After about a year, Stage 2 and will be final Basically completing the Pinasco recommendation to achieve the potenial and advertise specs for this cylinder kit.

Change the SI 20/20 to a SI 24/24 oil inject, maybe a vortex
Install a match cut crank
Install the pricey SIP T5 Pro exhaust
Biturbo front and rear shocks. I am a heavy boy at 330lbs and I also want a better ride. Stock shocks don't cut it

Stage 3 if I have lots of money

Vesptronics
or another modern Vespa PX 200 and get into stupid fun


Matching and Balance is an Engineering Art

Best regards rudy812

Added September 6/09
Hi everyone to who may be interested. Today, We just finished installing the top end with the Pinasco 177 Au and had no problems starting her up. In a few days, when the weather starts getting better, I will begin breaking in the top end and closely monitor and access the park plug for any unwanted signs.

The grinding was a little more than 0.5mm-1.0mm as advised by Pinasco. My mechanical friend and myself thought an additional grinding was required to clear the Alumium expansion clearance when the motor reaches to the maxium tempeture, probably about 0.5mm.

Best regards
Rudy

I'm in the same boat at the moment. My 05 PX 150 is pulled from the scoot and I'm trying to figure out which kit to use. Since this is my daily rider, I need reliability in day to day traffic so the Pinasco seems like the better choice. I would run that T5 carb with this set up though.

I didn't know you had to shave off the cylinder? Why would you need to do this? I'm not using the electric start option..in fact, I have removed it.

Thanks for the update.

The Pinasco staff email me and stated that the Pinasco 177Au kit was oringially designed and made for the original PX150 motor, which had no e-starter; which is really no different then my 2005 PX150 motor, except for the e-start and other very minor bolt on. My guess, it was much more cost effective to allow the minority of PX buyer, with an e-start, the easy and quick task of grinding, than to produce another casting mold or dies or what ever they use and have it in stock taking up space at warehouses of ditribution, wholesalers ,venders etc... We had to grind away at the cylinder only were the starter ring gear teeth, that is exposed outside the flywheel, that is in contact with the outside of the cylinder. It is a very small area. I examined the thickness at where we are grinding at it is not a problem, there is plenty of room. However, remove only what is needed to clear the expansion clearence, when the Aluminum cylinder reaches its maxium tempurature.

Matching and Balance is an Engineering Art

Best regards rudy812

good shit man


so hows it run good or what

So far so good; Today, We just completely finished installing the top end with the Pinasco 177 Au and had no problems starting her up. In a few days, when the weather starts getting better, I will begin breaking in the top end and closely monitor and assess the spark plug for any unwanted signs. When I've completed the break in, I write up my personal opinion and results.

Pinasco states and advises, from there installation manual,for the first 500Km or 300miles to go really easy and light on power and check the tightening of the head nuts; also use semi or full synthenic, 3%mix, after 500Km I can go back to 2% mix, only if the modification is within the scope Pinasco factory recommendations.

Matching and Balance is an Engineering Art

Best regards rudy812

see, my question with a kit is the thing already screams in 4th gear. Add more power and don't you have an ungodly amount of noise and vibration?

The DR is more than just more CC. It has 7 transfer ports, a good size exhaust port with two smaller exhaust ports over the main transfers to help speed up blowdown. If you don't want to match the cases and add a $400 pipe then the DR is the best kit out there.

DR 177 or180 was my second choice, but I wasn't sure where I am going with the final modification. Also, I wanted Aluminum.

At this point, I just want to get my PX running and operational. I am just not sure exactly what my final configuration and extra bolt on will be. I just know that I don't want my PX to be a narrowally focus full out race bike.

In the near future, I will be installing a match and balance modified cut crank, and either a modified and trick out Vortex SI24/24 with an oil injector, or a T5 carb with an oil injector. I will also have my stock flywheel professionally lighten, if possible, to approximately 1.5kg-2.0kg. I am also looking into upgrading to a high quality exhaust that is focus in the wide mid-range power band and torque, which is where most of my city riding and city hill climbing; just about all exhaust out there are design and built for top end. I am in no hurry and in time and when I am ready, I will make the right choice.

Also, I like what is claimed by the CDI Ignition VESPATRONIC and Parmakit; there claim is that the timing adjusts automatically, with a pre programmed curve of up to 8 degrees, which will provide a consistance and improved performance through out the RPM power band; and reduce and control high temperature cause by unmatch or improper timing, especially at top rpm range; which can reduce motor siezure caused by excessive motor temperature. Also, Twin sparks on each revolution which more fuel air/mix will be burned, thus be cleaner and more effiecient; High current and stable power output @ 12V 90W, which will supply a clean and stable current through out the power band from idle to top RPM. I am hesitating on the CDI purchase because of its price and I am not happy with the amount of real world feedback and data. Also, the flywheel that is supplied with these kits are not compatable with e-start. I am not sure at this point if the stock PX flywheel will work with this system.

So far that is my plan.

Matching and Balance is an Engineering Art
Best regards, rudy812

From what I've heard you don't need to match the cases with the Pinasco kit. YOU can, but it's not a requirement.

The DR kit is very reliable from what I've read, but really weak on power.

Patrick, what has been your experience with the DR kit?

Thanks.

That is is exactly what I read from the real world feed back I found on the posting and from replies. For the most realiable and longivity kit, the DR and equivalent wins by a long shot, Pinasco 177 comes second. DR, from what I hear locally, discribed as a very nice, enjoyable and noticeable mild improvement over stock with much more useable wider power band and pull; but not that much compared to other sceamer kits configured to the intended hot modification spec's in which they are purposely designed.
Matching and Balance is an Engineering Art
Best regards, rudy812.

Hmmmmm

Don't get me wrong, the Pinasco 177 is a great kit and if I was building a bike for myself that's what I would go with. But I'd also match the cases to the kit as well as to the carb and go to a proper expansion chamber...

I've built several bikes with the DR kit and while it doesn't compare to a fully tuned motor the usable power is impressive. And when you compare it to a stock 150 (and even more so the 125) it's a huge improvement. It's the only one I'd recommend just bolting it on.

Now with longer term plans I can understand bolting on the pinasco now and adding a pipe and carb... later.

As for balancing, you will find many different opinions about this on scooters. Keep in mind that unless you run a counterbalance shaft you cannot perfectly balance an engine short of 6 cylinders. A single is the worst and anything you do to counter the weight of the piston will be felt perpendicular to the piston. There should be some minimum in there but it's never really balanced. As a single data point, the smoothest vespa engine I've ever felt was on my smallframe and it has a fullcircle crank with no counterweights.

excellent post thanks

I have completed my 500 km (310 miles) break-in and now I am at over 2000 km (1234 miles). My overall conclusion is that my personal objective is almost met. Even though, at the moment, this conclusion review is for the bolt on only, Pinasco 177 cylinder kit, with a reconfigured stock SI 20/20 carburetor (the atomizer has been changed to BE3-160 jet and main jet to 112), Sito plus exhaust, 20 degree timing and NKG B8 spark plug. In about a year, I will fully complete the final phase of my modification; which will be a precut race crankshaft, a larger oil injector SI 24/24 or T5 carburetor, and an improved and match performance exhaust; thus achieving the potential Pinasco 177Au cylinder advertise and recommended specification.

Currently, I am very satisfied with my new ride. I personally feel that I made the right choice and purchase for my needs and wants. Keep in mind that this is a small displacement, a now increased to177cc two stroke, late 70s-early 80s technology scooter which had some minor improvement over the years. Also, I am a 5'10', 330lb over weight rider; so the results and objective is like comparing a two up ride, not a one person rider who may weigh up to 180lbs. Also my goal is not to achieve a top end, wheelie screamer, but an all round, long lasting scooter that will give me a satisfying, wider and useable torque and power in the low - mid rpm band, specifically for city riding and a little in the top end speed for my local freeway.

During my break-in, my speed was kept at a limited of 60 km/hr (37mph) and 40 km/hr (25mph) in the steep hills. I used a high grade, semi-synthetic oil in the oil injector tank, and added an additional 1% minimum, premix racing synthetic oil in the fuel tank; all from an identical single brand. Pinasco advises 3% for the first 500km break in period. For the first 150km (93 miles), I was a bit paranoid so I used 2% in the premix, which adds to 4% total oil/fuel mix. The motor was a bit rough in the first 100km (62 miles) and then after 200km (124miles), it began to unnoticeably smooth out. As recommended by the Pinasco installation manual, after 500 km mark, the cylinder head needed to be check and re-torque. All head bolts loosen up a bit and the re-torque was not a problem. We examined the spark plug and I am now moving the main jets up from 112 to 114, for sea level; the results were odd, one side of the spark plug had sighs of lean and the sign of other side of the plug as acceptable; I suspect and would consider this sign as border line. Even though Pinasco says the oil/fuel mix of 2% is acceptable after 500km, I have continued to using a 3% mix for another 800km-1000km or when I am going for a long distance day touring at continuous upper speed.

My first impressions are, "I really like the changes." From the touch of the throttle to slightly less than 1/8 turn, I had instantly noticed a stronger pull and power. The throttle feels like it has been reconfigured, something that feels new, tighter and more responsive. I find the lesser wrist movement is easier to too shift smoothly and faster; and also easier too calibrate speed and acceleration. Most of my city riding is within the first ¼ throttle rotation, and at freeway cruising speed it is between ½- 2/3 rotations. This change is positive and has made my ride more enjoyable and fun.

Even though I rode easy in the initial and throughout the duration of the break-in period, I notice that I shift less often and I usually maintained 60km/hr (37mph) city cruising speed, just above the local 50km/hr (31mph) limit. I often stayed in fourth gear, even during the usual city hill climbs that before would normally start bogging down my Vespa and needed to correctly shift down to third to compensate. Because I am in fourth gear often, I have gained gas mileage, but only if I take it easy and keep it below 80km/hr (50 mph). Thankfully, I blame the new and improved gain and a wider band range in the low-mid rpm power and torque. The vibration has noticeably increased at the bottom end; however, it begins to smooth out as the RPM increases. At the mid - upper RPM, the vibration, for a two stroke single, has surprisingly and very comfortably smoothed out; in fourth gear, the sweet spot is at about 70km/hr to 80km/hr. The sound of the Sito plus exhaust has change to a slightly deeper and smoother tone. The bike does feel more aggressive, tight and it sounded cooler; like a big, mature, horny wasp with a bit of attitude. Ok, that may be a stretch.

After the break in, I began to test and ride aggressively. So how did the bolt on only Pinasco 177 Au cylinder kit and new carburetion configuration performed. For take off and flowing with traffic, the acceleration has dramatically increased and is now very good and very acceptable for any comparable vehicle traveling up to 60km/hr (37 mph). To what use to be my wide open, fuel thirty, throttle speed at 90 km/hr (56 mph) is now y my top cruising speed, and my top end has now an additional 15km/hr (9.5mph). From 60km/hr-80km/hr (37 mph -50 mph), I still felt the acceleration and pull, not as strong, but acceptable enough for getting in and riding at my local freeway; from 80km/hr-90km/hr (50 mph - 56 mph), the acceleration pull is minimal to none, but is good enough for steady flat cruising; and from 90km-100km (56 mph - 62 mph), its acceleration crawls with no sensation of pull. At wide open throttle, the bike can't get passed 105km/hr (65 mph); the motor feels unbalance and sounds stressed, and becomes very thirsty for fuel. I found that if I roll back the throttle an 1/8 from wide open throttle, just enough to feel the rpm begins to slow down, I would be between 95km/hr-100km/hr (59 mph - 62 mph) max on the flats. When I rolled backed from wide open throttle, the fuel efficiency improves dramatically and the motor is running more smoothly and probably cooler. At the new steady 80km/hr - 85km/hr (50 mph -52 mph) cruising speed, I am not sure why, but my 2005 Vespa PX has gained up to about 15% fuel economy. I am guessing that my Vespa had a mismatch, improper and inefficient carburetor/ exhaust setup. My only criticism is that if I had a little more pull from the 80km/hr (50 mph) to top speed, my personal objectives for an all round performer, freeway riding and long distance day touring scooter would be completely met. Hmmm, what race pre-cut crankshaft and carburetor was I suppose to use and choose now???

During my ride, I kept thinking about one Gearheads saying, "Weight is horsepower." My wishful thinking that if I was the lighter rider of my idea weight of a 180lb, instead of 330lbs, the gain in acceleration and performance from this kit would have dramatically and greatly improved; thus my personal objective would have been easily met and most likely be exceeded. I also thought that a lighter rider would be able to ride faster at wide open throttle. However, that is until I discovered that when I rode down a 7% grade hill on the freeway, my Vespa had trouble getting pasted 110km/hr. I blame the stock crankshaft and the stock SI 20/20 carburetor for the choked and cut off, and reaching its absolute maximum rpm limit and speed. With a race precut crankshaft and 24mm carburetor, Pinasco claims that there sport/ touring tune 177Au cylinder kit set up can achieve an advertised specification of 12.5 hp and 125 km/hr (78 mph) top speed. Hmmm, looks like I will be needing performance shocks and tires very soon.

Whatever happens in my near future, right now my silvery metallic smoky grey 2005 Vespa PX 177 has become a sweeter, fun and more enjoyable ride. Can't wait to complete the second phase, shocks, tires...Oh no!!! Do I feel another addiction?

Average Mileage from an easy, fun and scenic 243 Km (151mile) day trip, traveling mostly between 60 km/h - 85 km/hr (37 mph - 53 mph); through an old highway back road route, with some town's in-between.

30 km/l (metric)
70.6 mpg (US)
84.7 mpg (Imperial)


Balance and matching is an engineering art

Best regards