Modern Vespa

Howdy, forum.

My P200 is stalling out on first gear (unless I get a fast rolling start). I'm going to rule out the clutch itself for now because I noticed that the vinyl liner inside my clutch cable outer has poked out about an inch and half and the lever, no matter how tight I set the clutch lever, is pulling soft.

The one thing that worries me is that when I pull in the clutch lever the kickstart spins free, so I think the clutch is disengaging.

So, I've got a few questions.

First, am I right that the worn outer cable is what's making the clutch lever so spongy?

Second, is there a better outer cable than these vinyl-lined ones? It seems like a pretty shoddy design to me. I can dig the inner cable wearing because those are easy to replace.

Third, is there supposed to be some kind of rubber bumper on the headset end of my clutch (and front brake) cable so it doesn't strip itself against the handlebar housing?

Fourth, I've renewed a few outers before so I know what kind of pain in the ass I'm setting myself up for. I was wondering if there are any arcane secrets to this like shrink tubing or something that will make it easier to pull the cables through the chassis.

I realize it might be a busted cruciform, but I want to get the control cables right before I split my cases again yadda yadda yadda.

Really appreciate the help!

You need to pull a new clutch cable outer. The fact that all of that outer has pulled through is basically rendering the whole mechanism inoperable.

Remember that cable actuation is all about how far the inner moves RELATIVE to the outer. If the outer is the wrong length...or not held fast in place ... you end up with barely any movement on the inner.

The good news is that you have an outer in place right now, so you can use a length of braided steel cable 2x the length of the outers, and a pinch bolt to thread through the old outer...the new outer, and then pull the braided steel cable you bought so the new one pulls into place behind the old one.

That was a really short description of the process, but i'm sure if you search for "cable replacement trick" you'll find something.

I'm not sure where you are from, but at Motorsport they cut all their inner and outter cables to each specific scoot so you get the right fit everytime.

Hit them up

http://www.scooterwest.com/

I totally get what you mean and I'm kicking myself for not having thought of that before. I used to overlap the new and old ones a couple of inches and mummify them in masking tape. A real headache getting that through the neck of the scooter.

Thanks for the awesome tip!

I'm in Austin, TX, so I was going to get the cable from ASC. Is there such a thing as performance cables?

Over 5000 refs popped up, all were unrelated titles. I am sure it is in there but it may take a while. I did not see it in the wiki either.

Oh the stuff you learn here!

I just did my shifter outers using the tape method. The first outer broke so I had to fish the remnants out, stagger and tape the two outers to the remaining old one, pop the headset to get them into the neck, then pull and pray.

It was one of those."Oh this shouldn't take very long to do..." that got dicey!

It worked out but I really like the idea of running a long inner through there...thanks!!!

To replace the outer, I usually put a new inner all the way through the new outer and into the old outer at the headset end (after removing the old inner), electrical tape them together, keeping as low a profile as possible with the tape but still getting them secure, and pulling them through from the engine/hub end. Gear cables are tricky since they're banded together, but clutch cable usually goes through without a problem.

Here's the trick:

Go to the hardware store and get like 16 feet or so of braided steel cable, the same general thickness as your gear cables ( 1.5mm thick ). Another good idea which i was too lazy to do is to solder both ends of the cable so they don't fray on you. Mine inevitably does, so i have to keep trimming back a few mm each time i do this so that it's nice and clean again.

Then put a pinchbolt at one end. I guess which size pinchbolt doesn't really matter much, since this part will never actually go INTO the scooter and catch on things. It does serve as the anchor of this whole operation,though... but you want one that will fit firmly and not slip.

Thread the long cable first through your NEW outer, then through the OLD outer ( preferably down from the speedo to the engine ), which should hopefully still be positioned inside your bike. The end should come out near the engine down at the bottom. It also helps if you've pulled your cable outer so that it's accessible straight down through the speedo hole ( or on a P-series, the whole top of the headset). If you're doing the clutch cable you want to pull that part out of the handlebar so it's jutting straight upward out of the speedo hole so you have a nice, direct, slow-curve to pull through. Tight curves are a bad thing.

Then just slowly but firmly pull the long inner you ran out of the bottom of the scooter, which will pull the new outer into place.. I pull the cable with my left hand and guide / push the new outer down into place with my right hand.

If you do it this way, NOTHING will get caught up, the cable will end up in the bike exactly as the old one was, with no damage... no tape stickiness... no tape letting go when it gets caught on something, etc. I used to do the tape method but when someone showed me this it changed everything. Now i can do a full cable change in 30 minutes or so, inners and outers both.

-Eric

I just finished refreshing the outer clutch cable with your method, Eric. It worked like a charm.

I had to clip the headset end off the old clutch outer because it was knobby. I used electrical tape to wed the new and old outers just to be sure they would flow together around any nooks and crannies.

Definitely go headset to engine. You can use pliers to ease the cable down through the collar of the headset, but going up the other way you're screwed.

Thanks again for the superb tip.

Electrical tape has NEVER worked for me...EVER! hahaha

the only tape that actually DID work for me was that clear plastic packing tape. Duct tape is shitty for this purpose because 1) it's too thick 2) it's actually not all that sticky! 3) it leaves a shitty goo on the cables afterwards.

Once again, don't bother with tape. Go spend 2 dollars on the braided steel cable and make that work for you again, and again, and again. It's in my scooter-tool drawer.

I did use the braided steel cable--just used the tape to bind the joint where the two metal caps touch.

Got any advice for adjusting the clutch with just my own two hands? Should I invest in a cable stretcher?

fourth hand tool, my friend.

Got one (mines blue)...don't leave home with out it!

Good news and bad. I got a fourth hand over at ASC this afternoon. Over tightened the clutch first, then slacked it out a little. Rode it around the neighborhood a bit. Beauty. Never had a more perfect clutch.

So, I put it back up on the stand to tinker with the headlight. I kicked it up and almost immediately something "gave" in the engine and it choked out. Now it kicks straight through like someone has the clutch pulled in. I released the pinch nut and it's still doing that.

I guess I'm going to have to pull my clutch out. Any ideas what I should be looking for? Did I just royally destroy my cruciform? My kickstart spring still has return--could its gears have overshot their contact?

(None of this surprises me. I've been riding this P since 2004 and have done two complete engines rebuilds with help.)

blah. Hate when that happens.

Could be a couple things... your clutch basket could have sheared the rivets that hold it together. Or your clutch could have just gotten stuck due to grooves in the basket and the plates getting stuck in them, etc. There's other things but i don't want to confuse the matter. Pull the clutch and let's start with that.

Got my clutch cover off and, Jesus!, what a mess. Little bits of brass shrapnel. The brass plunger is ground to a dull point and has worn a deep gouge into the pressure plate. I found the small brass bushing crumbled up like a piece of foil.

The circlip came out of the clutch cage, so all the plates are hanging loose around the shaft, except the top one which is firmly stuck on the crank. I don't expect to be able to salvage any of this clutch, but how can I pry it off without damaging the crank?

Anyone got recommendations on a really solid replacement for my blown out clutch?

***Got the clutch off finally. Eric, you were right about the rivets shearing off of the center gear. When it all came off I didn't see a woodruff key on the crank or anywhere on the tarp under the engine.

I found the woodruff key, so at least I don't have to wring my hands about it having fallen into the gearbox.

I've got my clutch disassembled and I'm making a list of parts I need.

I can't pull the brass bushing/spacer off of the clutch backplate. I've tried using pliers, vise grips, and a screw driver and mallet. I'm guessing I need to get a new one of these since the bushing seems fused to it.

Then there's the drive gear. I have an old one I replaced during my last engine rebuild. It's got chipped teeth, so I don't want to reuse it, but the rivets on it are raised and clean, whereas the "newer" one (a seemingly good used part I bought from a friend) has really low profile rivets front and back. These rivets don't have any contact with any parts inside the clutch, do they? Does it matter if they are raised and defined or worn down?

Sorry to keep bumping my own thread, but just wanted to add that after removing the clutch my kickstart arm is still spinning free. It ratchets and the spring returns, but it's not turning the flywheel. If I'm not mistaken, this means that I'll have to drop and split the engine, right?

P.S. I'm taking this opportunity to fix up some other little things on my P. I've got the mylar leg shield trim on almost all the way but it's stuck about an inch from the top. Does anyone know how to get that over the top of the leg shield without a crimping tool? This trim isn't supposed to need a crimping tool.

P.P.S. My brake light hasn't been working since I remodeled my scooter in December. The running light works but the brake light doesn't. It has a new switch in the pedal, and I've got two other ones to put in. Does it matter how I wire up the turn signal relay re: the way the brake light works?

Thanks for listening. -Gravy

screw the clutch you have.

Buy a cosa clutch for the P200.

You'll thank me later.

Also, until you put a new clutch on the engine, the kickstart IS GOING to spin free.

The clutch sits inbetween the bottom end and the top end and makes the two spin together. When you're kickstarting, you're spinning the primary drive, which spins the clutch, which turns the topend to start the bike.

If there's no clutch, you've decoupled the whole operation.

-Eric

The second part is good to hear.

I ordered my Cosa today and should be back on the road Thursday. Knock on wood this is the last in this string of break downs.

One thing i forgot to mention ...
it's been a long time since i installed a cosa clutch ... but something about them is slightly different from a stock. It makes me think i needed a different nut or something to hold it to the crankshaft.... i dunno.

Call Gene @ Scooters Originali and ask if there's anything special you need to swap from a normal stock P200 clutch to a cosa one.... because i think there's a stupid 50 cent part you might need to buy.


Once again, though, the cosa is a far nicer clutch. There's like 12 small springs around the inside of it, instead of the 7 big ones on a standard one. They give a much easier pull on the lever..... very smooth, etc. It's a comfort-upgrade.

Hmm. I'll give him a call. I talked to a lady at the parts counter at Scooter Works' retail operation. She wasn't too sure, said all I'd need was the pressure plate.

From the picture the Cosa clutch looks like it has either a wider hole in the middle or the bell itself is much smaller than the stock clutch.

Thanks for the heads-up.

There's your problem. The people at scooterworks don't even know what a cosa clutch is, other than a part number in their catalog. You might as well have called an online pharmacy that also sells vespa parts on the side.

I pulled a new clutch outer through last week, taped old one to new one and pulled from the engine end. worked ok, maybe i was lucky?

That worked for me every time I did it (maybe three or four), but it was a messy, agonizing job.

Just called Scooters Originali, but Gene was busy so I shot him an e-mail.

I found this thread about installing a Cosa clutch on a P200. Am I going to need a different woodruff key? https://modernvespa.com/forum/topic37063

play it by ear. It's easy to resize a woodruff key with a grinder should you need to, but no sense in doing so before it requires it.

OK. to start off, the tip Rover Eric gave regarding running a long braided cable through the both the old and new outers, cinching the cable at the end of the new outer with the cinch bolt, then pulling the whole thing through was SUPER easy. Badda Bing Badda Boom. Done.

Now my issue with adjusting the darned thing. I can put the scoot in 1st, 2nds, and neutal with no issues, but now it won't go into 3rd or 4th at all. Any Suggestions? Do I just keep tighting the cable adjuster until it works?

I don't think the clutch should make a difference in the number of gears you can shift into. Check that your gear shift cables are properly tightened first. Beyond that, it might be a problem with the gear selector.

The way i do that is put the handlebar selector in neutral. I use a woodworking clamp to hold it there. I also makesure the gearbox selector is in neutral.

Then i use a 4th hand tool to get both pinchbolts on while the cable is tight. After that, i adjust as needed.


Because there are two cables in question, it sounds like one you have too tight, and the other too loose, if that makes sense. Undo both, use my method, start from scratch.

-Eric

Just so I have this right...

I only changed out my Clutch cable inner and outer. I didn't mess with my gear shifter cables at all that I know of, because they seemed to be set right.

I can ride the bike around with no probs in 1st and 2nd, and the bike seems to go into neutral just fine. But when I try to put it in 3rd or 4th, I its like the shifter hits a solid wall. If I turn the shifter with my ear close to the gear box, I can hear it stopping against something solid.

I wonder if something got out of whack when I opened the headset?

I'll download the instructions on vespamaintenance.com and try it maybe today.
http://www.vespamaintenance.com/engine/select/index.html

Hmmm...weird.

Check to make sure that your clutch cable isn't too loose.

If you are sitting on your bike, engine running ...clutch lever squeezed in .... and you put the bike in first and rev it.... and pull your feet off the ground, does it start creeping forward?

If it does, your clutch cable isn't tight enough.

I finally figured out the how to use the 4th hand tool by using the decriptions you gave. But even after that and making sure the cable was tight enough. I think its now too tight, where now when I put the shifter in 1st or 2nd the bike doesn't stop rolling if I push it back and forth.

Anyway, it still won't go into 3rd or 4th. So, I think I'm gonna open the gearbox tomorrow and look at it to see if anything that may be out of place.

So, I tried looking at the gearbox selector and gear box yesterday, but I couldn't get the gear selector popped off the engine. The Haynes manual says that I will need to turn the gear shifter all the way to 4th gear to get the selector off, but since I can't turn the selector past 2nd, the selector doesn't want to fully come off. I can get the selector pulled from the engine about 3/4", but not any further.

[quote="oldstlraver"] I think its stuck on the plunger. I'll try to see if I can muscle it off, but I'm sorta worried it won't go back on. Also worried that this whole thing will mean I need to split the cases due to something wrong with the clutch (broken Key or cruciform out of whack). This is something I definitely haven't done.

The haynes manual says I can do this by myself in 30-40 minutes by myself, but vespamaintenance.com says two people, and I think the time would be a lot longer

Hallelujah, I got my scoot running again. I put the Cosa Clutch on with just the nut at the recommendation of a couple of mechanics. It's weird to have such a pliable clutch, but I'm getting used to it.

Now if I can just get that brake light working I'll be totally legal...

Thanks to everyone for your advice and wisecracks.

I used this method today and it rocks!

I wasn't able to find a long length of cable thin enough at the Depot. I poked around the garage and found an old spool of monofilament string trimmer string. It slid right through and worked like a champ!


Thanks again for the tip Eric!

happy for all the successes you guys have gotten!