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@jimmytwonutz avatar
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UTC quote
China scooter syndrome...... Don't catch it!

It seems someone is trying to put a positive spin on Chinese crap...
http://motorscootermuse.com/chinese_scooters.php
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UTC quote
A LOT of scooters and scooter parts are manufactured in China ... including Vespa! AND Piaggio is currently setting up plants in Viet Nam and India as well.

The LX125 and LX150 will be built in India.
⚠️ Last edited by TrafficJammer on UTC; edited 1 time
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UTC quote
"it is nice that the Chinese are (however unintentionally) subsidizing economical scooter usage in America. "


I've got to use this line whenever someone expresses concern over their job. It's nice how they subsidize economical textiles in America. It's nice how they subsidize economical fabricated equipment in America. It's nice how they subsidize economical electronics in America. It's nice.....
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UTC quote
From the article that was linked: "These new Chinese scooters are a mixed bag. The quality varies widely and the makers, though high in business acumen, are notoriously low on business scruples."
@norman avatar
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UTC quote
Fairly dodgy article - I gave up reading when it started making comparisons with "US scooter brands". Which ones are they?
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UTC quote
A similar, if not the same, write-up was on line a couple of years ago. I almost bought a Roadrunner Classic I-Scooter before I bought my LX and that was 2 years ago. It was $999 delivered and looked much like a Vespa.

I did some reading and found countless web sites and forums that had lots of negative entries about Chinese scooters sold on line. Lack of spare parts and dealer support among the biggest complaints.

I have to admit, I entertained the thought of becoming a dealer and buying one of each color to keep in stock, but chickened out at the last minute.

I bought a new LX150 and haven't had a stupid thought since. Razz emoticon
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UTC quote
Been there done that but am now immune since i got my shots Razz emoticon I think piaggio is going to shoot themselves in the foot by having vespa's made in china and india. Quality control is a word not used by many in both countries IMHO
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UTC quote
judy wrote:
Been there done that but am now immune since i got my shots Razz emoticon I think piaggio is going to shoot themselves in the foot by having vespa's made in china and india. Quality control is a word not used by many in both countries IMHO
Positioning factories in two of the largest emerging markets in the world is not a totally bad idea if they are going to be selling in those markets The quality control will be key. It is not clear that they still won't be sending EU manufactured scooters to the N.American market.
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UTC quote
The quality control is down to the commissioning company - in this case Vespa. A large number of their components already come from China.
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UTC quote
jimc wrote:
The quality control is down to the commissioning company - in this case Vespa. A large number of their components already come from China.
Jim has hit the nail on the head. Mainland China is pretty much where Taiwan was 30 years ago from a manufacturing quality standpoint. The technological capability is definitely there, but without a firm guiding hand from an importing company that cares about its reputation in its home marketplace, the factories who are working on contract or simply selling to the export market will take advantage of every opportunity to cut costs.

Taiwan's manufacturing has now matured to the point where there are Taiwanese brands that are respected in the West, and these companies take the quality-control steps necessary to protect that reputation. Until mainland Chinese manufacturing matures to that point, only products produced for Western companies in a "captive" factory, or in a contract factory with very forceful and continuous on-site quality monitoring, the quality of the rest of the products will be highly suspect.

Lest anyone construe this viewpoint as racist, be assured that this has been the story anywhere in the world where developing countries are producing products for already-developed countries. Without an intimate connection between the factory and the end user by an infrastructure that provides feedback, the products are seldom satisfactory to the sophisticated customer. This is true anywhere in the world, and has nothing to do with race.
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UTC quote
True stuff about Taiwan. Kymco have a damn good rep. High quality. Just a shame that the Downtown 300 isn't for sale in the U.K.
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UTC quote
Wellllllll...Chinese bikes are, in many cases, improving greatly, but they are still not for the faint of heart, requiring time and a willingness to engage in wrenching that a lotta folks in the EU and N American markets don't have.

Take a look at the sccotdawg forum sometime; a lotta satisfied users over there, but to a man, they expect to do a full PDI themselves, swapping out hoses, fasteners, batteries, and rubber for higher quality components, and doing most repair/maintenance tasks themselves. They are people who enjoy the process, which is an absolute requisite.

The QC and parts infrastructure have both improved tremendously, but as those factors have gone up, so have prices, and the time is coming when they will be on a par with the, for now, superior products of San Yang, PGO, Kymco, TGB, and other Taiwanese manufacturers.

I have a Chinese bike - not a scoot, but a clone of the old Honda CT70, only with a 107cc engine. It is a dead-solid mechanical design - it should be; like most China bikes, it's based on a proven Japanese platform. There was, indeed, a lot of scrimping on the minor parts - soft steel in the fasteners, inferior hose materials, etc., and major welds, if solid, are of the unfinessed quick-and-dirty type. That said, the bike works, and to the same standard as my little Honda of long ago.

It is less true than formerly that Chinese bikes are, by definition, total crap. They seem to be catching on and catching up.
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UTC quote
Just out of curiosity, when should I start looking for my Chinese scooter to fall apart? For comparison, how many miles do you get out of a Vespa before they fall apart?

Not trying to be snarky, I'm sincerely interested.

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UTC quote
norman wrote:
Fairly dodgy article - I gave up reading when it started making comparisons with "US scooter brands". Which ones are they?
Laughing emoticon

...exactly..most, if not all are offshore and it's not just scoots...
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UTC quote
enfanta wrote:
Just out of curiosity, when should I start looking for my Chinese scooter to fall apart? For comparison, how many miles do you get out of a Vespa before they fall apart?

Not trying to be snarky, I'm sincerely interested.

200 miles - 80,000 miles, or anywhere in between. Some poorly PDI'd Piaggio stuff has failed spectacularly within 100 miles or so. Dirt-cheap Chinese 'crap' in the hands of a good mechanically-astute owner is just fine.
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UTC quote
From the last line of the article: " -- and they look great."

WTF?? For me, design quality is the biggest difference between Old World and New World scooters. Even the Japanese haven't really got their design language right, although they certainly have their moments.

Quite apart from the aforementioned build quality issues (The Italians and particularly the French can have these as well), does anyone know of any cheap knock-off scooters that really look good?
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UTC quote
michael_h wrote:
Positioning factories in two of the largest emerging markets in the world is not a totally bad idea if they are going to be selling in those markets
Ahem. In scooter terms, it's countries like the US which are emerging markets. Sccoter use in China and India is massive. They emerged years ago.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with making stuff in China. Last time I checked, the whole world was made in China.

Making stuff where costs are low is the globalisational dream economy that's underpinning most, if not all, of the investments in everyones pension plans. You don't have to agree with it, but you can't escape it.
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UTC quote
Have to agree, there's nothing wrong per se with goods made in China.

But it's down to the commissioning purchaser to ensure the vendor's QC is up to scratch. For example, you don't hear of many problems with Apple iPod and iPhone products which are made in China by Foxconn.

And in Piaggio's case, I'd imagine they'll be actually owning the factory, or at least setting up a JV.
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UTC quote
Silver Streak wrote:
jimc wrote:
The quality control is down to the commissioning company - in this case Vespa. A large number of their components already come from China.
Jim has hit the nail on the head. Mainland China is pretty much where Taiwan was 30 years ago from a manufacturing quality standpoint. The technological capability is definitely there, but without a firm guiding hand from an importing company that cares about its reputation in its home marketplace, the factories who are working on contract or simply selling to the export market will take advantage of every opportunity to cut costs.

Taiwan's manufacturing has now matured to the point where there are Taiwanese brands that are respected in the West, and these companies take the quality-control steps necessary to protect that reputation. Until mainland Chinese manufacturing matures to that point, only products produced for Western companies in a "captive" factory, or in a contract factory with very forceful and continuous on-site quality monitoring, the quality of the rest of the products will be highly suspect.

Lest anyone construe this viewpoint as racist, be assured that this has been the story anywhere in the world where developing countries are producing products for already-developed countries. Without an intimate connection between the factory and the end user by an infrastructure that provides feedback, the products are seldom satisfactory to the sophisticated customer. This is true anywhere in the world, and has nothing to do with race.
I'm old enough to remember the phrase "cheap Japanese imitation" of a fine American product. This hasn't been the case for a long time.
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UTC quote
mpfrank wrote:
Silver Streak wrote:
jimc wrote:
The quality control is down to the commissioning company - in this case Vespa. A large number of their components already come from China.
Jim has hit the nail on the head. Mainland China is pretty much where Taiwan was 30 years ago from a manufacturing quality standpoint. The technological capability is definitely there, but without a firm guiding hand from an importing company that cares about its reputation in its home marketplace, the factories who are working on contract or simply selling to the export market will take advantage of every opportunity to cut costs.

Taiwan's manufacturing has now matured to the point where there are Taiwanese brands that are respected in the West, and these companies take the quality-control steps necessary to protect that reputation. Until mainland Chinese manufacturing matures to that point, only products produced for Western companies in a "captive" factory, or in a contract factory with very forceful and continuous on-site quality monitoring, the quality of the rest of the products will be highly suspect.

Lest anyone construe this viewpoint as racist, be assured that this has been the story anywhere in the world where developing countries are producing products for already-developed countries. Without an intimate connection between the factory and the end user by an infrastructure that provides feedback, the products are seldom satisfactory to the sophisticated customer. This is true anywhere in the world, and has nothing to do with race.
I'm old enough to remember the phrase "cheap Japanese imitation" of a fine American product. This hasn't been the case for a long time.
Exactly. I'm old enough to remember that as well, but I figured most of the audience here wouldn't be!
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UTC quote
Another item to keep in mind. The article was on the site of a dealer in cheap Chinese scooters, a little self serving? Also they quote Wikipedia as a source, and Wikipedia is written by anyone who wants to put up an article. They probably wrote the Wikipedia article too.
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UTC quote
Silver Streak wrote:
Exactly. I'm old enough to remember that as well, but I figured most of the audience here wouldn't be!
I can go back a little further. As a curious little boy, I often broke or took my toys apart. I remember that many of the imported metal wind up cars and trucks that I trashed were painted on the inside and often had writing on them. They were made from scrap metal containers or signs.

One that I remember well was a black Mercury Sedan that was a Dick Tracy police car. The windows were painted on with men in hats shown sitting inside. It had a red light on the roof and was one of the few toys that had batteries and sound. I seem to remember that only the sound and red light ran on batteries. The car still had a key that needed to be wound for motion.

The day I opened it up, I found green and red paint on the inside and some black stripes. I never knew what it started out as, but it ended up being a broken toy in my hands.
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UTC quote
I will never buy any scooter made at a mainland china plant, that goes for the fly also, dont care if their good or not
@norman avatar
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UTC quote
I have to chuckle at some of this anti-Chinese stuff - there are a lot of people in northern Europe who still wouldn't consider buying an Italian car, bike, etc. due to a perceived lack of quality.
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UTC quote
I own one of those Tank Scooters (exactly the one pictured in the article '08 Tank Sporty). Let me be fair in my assessment: IT IS A PIECE OF CRAP!

I bought it last year to give my wife a taste of riding. I knew going in that it would be short-lived experiment.

The first adventure came when changing the oil for the first time. It alarmed me to fine a ton of metal shavings in the oil. BTW, it does not have a separate oil drain plug from the course filter. Then at the bottom of the plug I found pieces of gaskets. Is that quality control?!?! What The? emoticon

2nd adventure, the mirror broke off because the metal stem is hollow.
3rd adventure, the cheapo matching topcase broke off due to inferior plastics.

The scooter has 1300 miles but it is still running only because I maintain it well.

I've seen some of the other brands available from mainland China and they have NOT improved. On any given day, you can find 4-8 of these crappy used things on CL. The only exceptions: Kymco Super 8, Kymco Agility, SYM Fiddle II, Piaggio Fly.
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UTC quote
Ultra-maniac wrote:
I've seen some of the other brands available from mainland China and they have NOT improved. On any given day, you can find 4-8 of these crappy used things on CL. The only exceptions: Kymco Super 8, Kymco Agility, SYM Fiddle II, Piaggio Fly.
Kymcos and SYMs are from Taiwan, not mainland China.
@chad avatar
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UTC quote
NightWing wrote:
Silver Streak wrote:
Exactly. I'm old enough to remember that as well, but I figured most of the audience here wouldn't be!
I can go back a little further. As a curious little boy, I often broke or took my toys apart. I remember that many of the imported metal wind up cars and trucks that I trashed were painted on the inside and often had writing on them. They were made from scrap metal containers or signs.

One that I remember well was a black Mercury Sedan that was a Dick Tracy police car. The windows were painted on with men in hats shown sitting inside. It had a red light on the roof and was one of the few toys that had batteries and sound. I seem to remember that only the sound and red light ran on batteries. The car still had a key that needed to be wound for motion.

The day I opened it up, I found green and red paint on the inside and some black stripes. I never knew what it started out as, but it ended up being a broken toy in my hands.
i bought some tiki torches last year. the little oil cans were used chinese signs or something. if you looked inside with a flashlight you could see writing, etc.
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UTC quote
chad wrote:
NightWing wrote:
Silver Streak wrote:
Exactly. I'm old enough to remember that as well, but I figured most of the audience here wouldn't be!
I can go back a little further. As a curious little boy, I often broke or took my toys apart. I remember that many of the imported metal wind up cars and trucks that I trashed were painted on the inside and often had writing on them. They were made from scrap metal containers or signs.

One that I remember well was a black Mercury Sedan that was a Dick Tracy police car. The windows were painted on with men in hats shown sitting inside. It had a red light on the roof and was one of the few toys that had batteries and sound. I seem to remember that only the sound and red light ran on batteries. The car still had a key that needed to be wound for motion.

The day I opened it up, I found green and red paint on the inside and some black stripes. I never knew what it started out as, but it ended up being a broken toy in my hands.
i bought some tiki torches last year. the little oil cans were used chinese signs or something. if you looked inside with a flashlight you could see writing, etc.
They probably said Dick Tracy Mercury Sedan Police Car.
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UTC quote
they are made out of old Vespas that are too far gone to be a Viet-crap
OP
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UTC quote
I also remember a time.... when our TV was broken we called a repair man to come and fix it.... Now, when the TV breaks, we throw it out and buy a new one..... Is that the future for the cheap scooter?
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UTC quote
JimmyTwoNutz wrote:
I also remember a time.... when our TV was broken we called a repair man to come and fix it.... Now, when the TV breaks, we throw it out and buy a new one..... Is that the future for the cheap scooter?
What? You didn't pull the tubes out of it and take them to the drug store for testing and to buy new if needed?
OP
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I didn't know my Vespa had tubes......?????!!!!!
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UTC quote
JimmyTwoNutz wrote:
I didn't know my Vespa had tubes......?????!!!!!
TV sets, old TV sets.
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Silver Streak wrote:
Lest anyone construe this viewpoint as racist, be assured that this has been the story anywhere in the world where developing countries are producing products for already-developed countries. Without an intimate connection between the factory and the end user by an infrastructure that provides feedback, the products are seldom satisfactory to the sophisticated customer. This is true anywhere in the world, and has nothing to do with race.
developing countries produce products for already-developed countries at the already-developed countries' request. TO CUT COSTS. this has been true anywhere in the world at anytime in its history, from the era of the spice-trade to the age of vespa submanufacture, and has everything to do with economics.

not paying attention to these realities has a lot to do with having a blinkered, or worse, racist, viewpoint of how the world works.
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UTC quote
tante sophie wrote:
Silver Streak wrote:
Lest anyone construe this viewpoint as racist, be assured that this has been the story anywhere in the world where developing countries are producing products for already-developed countries. Without an intimate connection between the factory and the end user by an infrastructure that provides feedback, the products are seldom satisfactory to the sophisticated customer. This is true anywhere in the world, and has nothing to do with race.
developing countries produce products for already-developed countries at the already-developed countries' request. TO CUT COSTS. this has been true anywhere in the world at anytime in its history, from the era of the spice-trade to the age of vespa submanufacture, and has everything to do with economics.

not paying attention to these realities has a lot to do with having a blinkered, or worse, racist, viewpoint of how the world works.
No argument there, but my point is simply that -- when developing countries supply products to developed countries because of a desire to cut costs -- there will always be a problem with the quality of the products unless some sort of feedback/quality enforcement mechanism is in place. Factories in the developing world that are marketing to the developed world on their own without such feedback will inevitably produce the products as cheaply as possible, as they are anonymous to their customers and have no reputation to protect.
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@hr2lrn avatar
GT200, Honda GB500, Honda CB400, Honda C70 Passport, 1999 Harley Dyna, 2002 Suzuki SV650s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 695
Location: New Orleans
UTC quote
michael_h wrote:
judy wrote:
Been there done that but am now immune since i got my shots Razz emoticon I think piaggio is going to shoot themselves in the foot by having vespa's made in china and india. Quality control is a word not used by many in both countries IMHO
Positioning factories in two of the largest emerging markets in the world is not a totally bad idea if they are going to be selling in those markets The quality control will be key. It is not clear that they still won't be sending EU manufactured scooters to the N.American market.
+1 it's all in the quality control. Put a few crusty Italians along the production line and give them a big sticks.
@zagato avatar
UTC

Addicted
Vespa GTV 250ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 717
Location: Louisville, KY
 
Addicted
@zagato avatar
Vespa GTV 250ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 717
Location: Louisville, KY
UTC quote
My biggest issue with companies moving their manufaturing to China is that the price of their product doesn't refect change. I remember buying italian made Vasque hiking boots for a bit under $200. The next year, they moved all their manufacturing from Italy to China. The price of the new Chinese boots? $200.

If there was a ratio of (material owned)/(material owned that was made in China), our household would have a very high ratio. I spent two years looking for a nice wallet that wasn't made in China!

I know there are pieces of my Italian made Vespa which are made in China, and there are pieces to my Japanese made DVD player made in China also, etc. etc. I can't get around it but I do make an effort when possible. It seems every time I do get something make there, I'm disappointed so why bother?

Oh, and I now have Asolo boots that are made in Romania. I'm OK with that.
@theoldsquid avatar
UTC

Hooked
250gts ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 151
Location: Friday Harbor WA
 
Hooked
@theoldsquid avatar
250gts ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 151
Location: Friday Harbor WA
UTC quote
Worked on a friends "over-the-internet Chinese scooter and I was innoculated. I'll never work on another. Plastic was thin and brittle. Replacements unavailable. Added brake fluid to the EMPTY front brake and the sight glass dissolved! What a piece of crap. Like other posters, I try to not buy Chinese. I know that they will eventually get their act together just like the Japanese did during the 60's but I don't want to be part of the process except by my absence.
@ultra-maniac avatar
UTC

Hooked
Joined: UTC
Posts: 230
Location: The Cajon Zone
 
Hooked
@ultra-maniac avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 230
Location: The Cajon Zone
UTC quote
Silver Streak wrote:
Ultra-maniac wrote:
I've seen some of the other brands available from mainland China and they have NOT improved.... The only exceptions: Kymco Super 8, Kymco Agility, SYM Fiddle II, Piaggio Fly.
Kymcos and SYMs are from Taiwan, not mainland China.
The 4 scooters I mentioned are manufactured in mainland China under supervision of the Taiwanese or Italian company.
@silver_streak avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 Vespa LX 190, 2011 LXV150ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8758
Location: Annapolis, MD, USA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@silver_streak avatar
2007 Vespa LX 190, 2011 LXV150ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8758
Location: Annapolis, MD, USA
UTC quote
Ultra-maniac wrote:
Silver Streak wrote:
Ultra-maniac wrote:
I've seen some of the other brands available from mainland China and they have NOT improved.... The only exceptions: Kymco Super 8, Kymco Agility, SYM Fiddle II, Piaggio Fly.
Kymcos and SYMs are from Taiwan, not mainland China.
The 4 scooters I mentioned are manufactured in mainland China under supervision of the Taiwanese or Italian company.
My bad! I hadn't (but should have) realized that the Taiwanese were contracting production to the mainland. I guess that puts Taiwan firmly in the "developed" country camp.

The fact that these are your exceptions lends credence to my general premise, though.

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