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Hello Folks - I have been lurking for a few weeks (you people are a riot!)as I am considering purchasing a Vespa 250 or 300. One of my primary concerns is convincing my wife that scootering is relatively safe. I would wear protective clothing/helmet and take the motorcycle safety course. I'd appreciate any feed back/experiences you fine folks may have had relative to how safe scooter riding is.

Thank you.
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It mostly depends on you!
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You will be just fine aslong as you take the time to practice your riding technique but most importantly watch out for other road users as they don't always look out for you.
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mjm50cal wrote:
It mostly depends on you!
Scootering IS safe on an angled perspective. Literally everything is put in to account when the safety word pops out of the box.

Always listen to the little voice in the back of your mind saying... "do not forget that f*ing jacket, it will save you"

BE SEEN. It is always important you are acknowledged on the road. Cagers tend to think your a nuisance, therefore in their books its most likely that they wouldn't notice you creeping up or passing by. Hi VIS is advised.

When you feel you are safe. Make sure your bike is safe to ACTUALLY ride. (I know your thinking... umm isn't that obvious? but most obvious thoughts tend to get brushed aside and forgotten about) Checking whether tyres are not entirely bald, Making sure forks aren't bent will determine a safer ride and a smoother one too.

Technique is a good one too! as Mr. Mophead perfectly explained. Developing a third eye for this will be learnt as you become more experienced on the road. Potentially will again SAVE YOU from any kind of accident. (except peeing yourself....dont ask!)


one more thing, have fun!

Welcome to MV
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Scootering is not inherently safe.
Scootering is not inherently dangerous.
You are the variable in the equation that tips the scale from one side to another.
Factors:
Judgement
Awareness
Fear or lack there of
visibility
proper gear
maintenance
And the mistress of all chance, "LUCK"
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this is not going to help your cause, but almost everytime I ride in So Cal, I will run into some idiot doing one or a combination of the following:
- merge over to my lane without looking
- slam the brake so the person can make a left or right hand turn into a driveway
- make a left turn from the opposite direction right into your path as you were going straight through an intersection
- make a right turn from the intersecting direction right into your path as you were going straight through an intersection
- make a U turn from the opposite direction and realize cager's turning radius sucks and stops right in front of you
- merge right into your lane while having the left turn signal on.
- merge left into your lane while having the right turn signal on and yapping away on the cell phone
- straddle between lanes and couldn't make up mind as to which lane to drive in

oh yeah, my GF got rear ended by a hummer while at a redlight b/c the guy was txting and misjudged the stopping distance.
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Re: ..."Relatively Safe"
Compared to what?

As others have said, there are many aspects of safety that you can manage/avoid/tolerate, but ultimately, compared to a car, it is not "relatively" safe. My question to you is...should that be your determinant? Obviously for many of us, this is viewed as manageable, acceptable risk.

If you are not a motorcyclist, or even a bicyclist for that matter, your learning curve is particularly steep--both in traffic safety & mastering the physical act of riding. To get right to the point: some people are more just more adept at riding, and riding defensively, than other people are, and only you can judge where you are on that. If you are a duffus, heed your wife's words.
DBarlar wrote:
Hello Folks - I have been lurking for a few weeks (you people are a riot!)as I am considering purchasing a Vespa 250 or 300. One of my primary concerns is convincing my wife that scootering is relatively safe. I would wear protective clothing/helmet and take the motorcycle safety course. I'd appreciate any feed back/experiences you fine folks may have had relative to how safe scooter riding is.

Thank you.
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mjm50cal wrote:
It mostly depends on you!
Considering approx 3/4 of car v motorcycle/scooter accidents (general, anectdotal, NZ stats) are caused by the car driver then I don't subscribe to the above view.
It took me 18 months to convince my family to let me ride/commute on a scooter and Auckland NZ is a very scooter unfriendly city. We have a very young and agressive driver population here and tolerance for those on two wheels is low.
That said, I did a safe riding course, an 18 month graduated licence and wear high viz and a white helmet. I am four years down the track and I still ride conservatively by my own admission. You can ride safely but inevitably, one day, someone in a cage is going to not see you or do the wrong thing. At that moment you need to be prepared/skilled/dressed/reactive/level-headed to avoid the worst outcome.
Scooting is fun but you are at greater risk than those cocooned in a tonne of steel.
Good luck.
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good post...
Werd.
Boulty wrote:
mjm50cal wrote:
It mostly depends on you!
Considering approx 3/4 of car v motorcycle/scooter accidents (general, anectdotal, NZ stats) are caused by the car driver then I don't subscribe to the above view.
It took me 18 months to convince my family to let me ride/commute on a scooter and Auckland NZ is a very scooter unfriendly city. We have a very young and agressive driver population here and tolerance for those on two wheels is low.
That said, I did a safe riding course, an 18 month graduated licence and wear high viz and a white helmet. I am four years down the track and I still ride conservatively by my own admission. You can ride safely but inevitably, one day, someone in a cage is going to not see you or do the wrong thing. At that moment you need to be prepared/skilled/dressed/reactive/level-headed to avoid the worst outcome.
Scooting is fun but you are at greater risk than those cocooned in a tonne of steel.
Good luck.
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Boulty wrote:
mjm50cal wrote:
It mostly depends on you!
Considering approx 3/4 of car v motorcycle/scooter accidents (general, anectdotal, NZ stats) are caused by the car driver then I don't subscribe to the above view.
http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~john/vfr/hurt.html

for the US stats.

Most telling stat:

22. The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents.

No silver bullet, but those are damn good odds.
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Getting decent training first should be the priority, for all riders everywhere, IMHO. Take the best you can get locally, then you should be just fine.
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When you say "relatively safe," I get the sense you're deceiving yourself as much as your family. That's not a criticism-I was exactly the same when making my case for buying a scooter.

Unfortunately, relative safeness, statistics, and others' anecdotes are all totally worthless if you crash.

I suppose the real problem is that you're asking the wrong question in order to get your desired outcome. Again-I did the same.

The more valid question is this: What are the risks involved in riding a scooter, what can you do to mitigate those risks, and are you willing to accept those risks and take responsibility for their consequences?

Protective gear and the MSF are good first steps. But the fact is that while you can take action to reduce your chances of a crash and reduce potential injury, scootering will never be "safe." There's a certain amount of risk no matter what you do, and those risks are generally higher than with some other forms of transportation. Does it really matter if they're less than even riskier options?

So-how gullible is your wife? If you told her you were planning on jumping out of a car moving 45mph, I assume she would freak. If you told her you planned on jumping out a car moving 45mph, but were going to wear protective gear, take a class on jumping out of cars, and that it's relatively safer than jumping out of a car moving at 65mph, would she be appeased?

I suggest taking a different tact. After failing to make a case for buying a scooter and doing so anyways, I had to later admit that most of my "pro" arguments were bullshit rationalizations based on paper-thin information. I ate my hat.
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jimc wrote:
Getting decent training first should be the priority, for all riders everywhere, IMHO. Take the best you can get locally, then you should be just fine.
Because well-trained riders don't crash or get hit by cars? You know that's not the case and it seems a little irresponsible for a moderator to suggest that it is. Some of the best and most experienced riders in the scooter community have crashed and have been seriously injured as a result.

If someone needs a guarantee or reassurance that they'll be "just fine," they should probably stay off scooters.
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jimc wrote:
Getting decent training first should be the priority, for all riders everywhere, IMHO. Take the best you can get locally, then you should be just fine.
+1000

I hadn't ridden a 2-wheel motorized vehicle since I was a kid (I'm 52 now) when I decided a year ago April that I wanted to get a Vespa. I took the MSF course before I bought my first Vespa (they provide scooters at the course here in Austin), and was darn glad I did. Then after getting my first Vespa and riding it for a couple months, I took the Advanced course. I think EVERYONE should take the courses; there's always something to learn in them, even for experienced riders. My first Vespa was an LX-150, and I've now moved up to the GTS 300. My confidence level in my skills, and being comfortable getting out in Austin's horrible traffic was the result of the courses.
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ericalm wrote:
jimc wrote:
Getting decent training first should be the priority, for all riders everywhere, IMHO. Take the best you can get locally, then you should be just fine.
Because well-trained riders don't crash or get hit by cars? You know that's not the case and it seems a little irresponsible for a moderator to suggest that it is. Some of the best and most experienced riders in the scooter community have crashed and have been seriously injured as a result.
They'll be as well-prepared as possible. There's no such thing as an 'accident' - and very rarely are there any RTAs involving PTWs that couldn't have been avoided by the PTW rider - although the majority are caused by other (usually car) drivers. Good training will get you to lessen the risk of riding a PTW to well below that of an average car driver. Yes, some 'well-trained riders' and even 'trainers' themselves get taken out - invariably when they did something outside the boundaries of what they preach.
Quote:
If someone needs a guarantee or reassurance that they'll be "just fine," they should probably stay off scooters.
There are no guarantees.
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jimc wrote:
ericalm wrote:
jimc wrote:
Getting decent training first should be the priority, for all riders everywhere, IMHO. Take the best you can get locally, then you should be just fine.
Because well-trained riders don't crash or get hit by cars? You know that's not the case and it seems a little irresponsible for a moderator to suggest that it is. Some of the best and most experienced riders in the scooter community have crashed and have been seriously injured as a result.
They'll be as well-prepared as possible. There's no such thing as an 'accident' - and very rarely are there any RTAs involving PTWs that couldn't have been avoided by the PTW rider - although the majority are caused by other (usually car) drivers. Good training will get you to lessen the risk of riding a PTW to well below that of an average car driver. Yes, some 'well-trained riders' and even 'trainers' themselves get taken out - invariably when they did something outside the boundaries of what they preach.
Quote:
If someone needs a guarantee or reassurance that they'll be "just fine," they should probably stay off scooters.
There are no guarantees.
My points exactly! There is no "you'll be okay," just risk reduction. The risk is omnipresent and not always under your control. "Very rarely" is of little consolation when it happens to you.

I'm not trying to be the chicken little of scootering here, but do think these discussions need to be realistic and, most of all, brutally honest.
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I do not think that anyone who feels compelled to ask permission to buy a scooter, or who needs to solicit the opinion of a bunch of total strangers as to the safety of scootering, would ever be comfortable on two wheels. I suggest that you take a bus.
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The best you can promise your girlfriend is that you will be as prepared as possible to ride safely - you can say "I will always wear my gear" and "I will take a motorcycle safety course and use the skills I learn there daily"

But you could still be parked at a light and rear-ended and it will be ugly. It could happen.

I think the question is, why do you want to ride? If you don't know, then it might not be worth the risk. Why take a chance of getting killed for something that is just a lark? If you have some good reasons for wanting a scooter, then I would say go for it. You can be very safe on a scooter.

The first trick to being safe on a scooter, in my opinion, is to know you aren't very safe on a scooter. Sounds silly, right? You should always be aware of what you and the scooter CANNOT do. Ride knowing what dangers you CAN'T control so that you are looking out for them. If you have a healthy fear of the dangers to you on your scooter, you'll find yourself noticing those dangers before they hit you.

You can be very safe, but you gotta work for it on a scooter!
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My thoughts...

1. Safety Class...not just the skills (you'll practice that on your own)...pay attention to the safety related topics that will be covered (i.e. brake modulation when coming to a stop, etc.)

2. Per #1 practice...practice...practice. Sudden stops, stop and go's, emergency weave, slow turns (turn your head and eyes...both to where your want to go) / counter weighting, higher speed turns and applying countersteering (this is intuitive and is in reality "leaning" and in doing so you apply a slight press to the handle bar to the side you want to go...your wheel doesn't turn...it's the countersteering / lean) and U-turns.
Whenevery I can I find an open lot and practice...it's fun to challenge yourself.

3. Proper gear...I wear an orange safety vest (same one the miliatry requires while riding on base)...visibility. Emergency kit; flat fix, small first aid kit, fuses, bulbs, jumper cable. Consider air horn (Stebel / Wolo).

4. Defensive driving emphasis...that's just the way it is.

5. Over confidence...especially after about a year...complacency can be dangerous.

6. Know your scoot...there are basic maintenance you need to know..
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mjm50cal wrote:
It mostly depends on you!
I didn't say it soley depends on you.
But MOSTLY it does.
Taking responsibility for your safety. I addressed things he can affect, not things he can't do anything about.

So if it doesn't mostly depend on you, then who?
⚠️ Last edited by mjm50cal on UTC; edited 1 time
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The most thoroughly investigated PTW mishaps in the US are those that involve fatalities. This study from Washington State is consistent with other studies of the subject in the US. In so far as fatal PTW mishaps, the rider is the most common cause of the mishap, not another driver.

The brief summary (emphasis added):
Quote:
Data reviewed by the Task Force indicated that:

The vast majority of fatalities occur during daylight hours, in dry weather.

More than 80% of fatalities occur between April and September, prime months for motorcycling.

Half of fatal crashes were single vehicle occurrences; no other vehicle was involved other than the motorcycles. When alcohol is involved, two-thirds of fatal crashes are single vehicle occurrences.

The most common contributing factors to motorcycle fatalities, based on law enforcement scene reports, are lane error, speeding, alcohol and inattention.

A third of fatalities were motorcyclists who did not have a valid motorcycle endorsement.

Conclusion
The Task Force concluded that, while there are multiple contributions to motorcycle crashes that result in fatalities or serious injuries, it appears that the most important factors are within the control of the rider. Efforts to reduce fatalities and serious injuries should focus on rider skill and behavior.

In short, the rider and his/her attitude, skill and judgment are the significant determinants of the risk level experienced in PTW riding.

Mishaps are CAUSED. Eliminate the CAUSES and there will be fewer mishaps. The serious research consistently identifies the rider as the CAUSE in fatal PTW mishaps.

Al

P.S. I would also add that there is a significant difference between SAFETY (mishap prevention) and survivability equipment. Helmets and gear do not make you safe, but they might, within their design limits, mitigate the injuries an unsafe action can cause.
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Thank You
Thank you for your responses. Very thoughtful and informative.
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Re: Thank You
DBarlar wrote:
Thank you for your responses. Very thoughtful and informative.
You will find that in the main, the folks on MV are civil and caring. While the underlying risk on a PTW is greater than, for example, an automobile, it is not anywhere near the level of a "daredevil" sport. Simply get reasonable training, continue to build your skills, and never think you know it all. Your attitude is a critical element. That will definitely make the risk minimal.

Wishing you many years of safe, fun riding.

Al
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I read this thread with interest having been involved in an accident just before last Christmas. I may have missed it but I couldn't see any reference to being aware at all times of road conditions.

Fortunately, I have been riding safely now for 46 years. Just over 12years ago I was knocked off my Cagiva motorcycle by a car joining a roundabout without any warning at high speed. I was a lot younger then (I am now approaching 63) so apart from a few bruises where I bounced across the roundabout, in full leathers, I was ok.

The accident before Christmas was entirely my fault and there was no other vehicle involved. I was following my friend on his scooter and approaching a roundabout (would you believe about 100 yards from the one the scene of my previous accident) at about 10 - 15 mph. I noticed a wet trail circling the roundabout and decided it was water.

It wasn't it was oil and in a nanosecond I was lying on the ground with cars approaching me. I leapt up and ran onto the roundabout. I didn't appear to be badly injured and was able to ride home. It's a long story but a dislocated shoulder was missed and I am still recovering from major surgery in May although I am back on the scooter.

Yes I was wearing a scooter jacket with full protected pads but that did not prevent my shoulder from dislocating.

The moral of my story is to be aware of the condition of the road at all times, oil, diesel, white lines, metal studs, gravel and so the list goes on. They all pose a potential threat to anyone on 2 wheels. I am still kicking myself for missing such an obvious threat after 46 years of scooter riding!!
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Re: Thank You
Aviator47 wrote:
DBarlar wrote:
Thank you for your responses. Very thoughtful and informative.
You will find that in the main, the folks on MV are civil and caring.
As I noted recently on a MB thread: There is not a single statement about a scooter, scooterist or scootering that goes undisputed or isn't "one-upped" at some point in the scooterverse.

If it's in your nature to disagree, provide unsolicited clarification, or if you find yourself simply knowing more or better more and are compelled to say so, screw safety. You were born to ride a scooter. I will gladly write a note to your wife saying so.
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Rog-

This is not the place to expect a comprehensive course in rider skill and safety, thus, items can and will be left out. Postings here are random and spontaneous. There are well designed courses to cover riding skill and safety, and well written books as well. That is where one should turn to be properly educated.

That said, your anecdotal experience is extremely beneficial to anyone who reads this thread. Any and all shared experiences help.

Al
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Re: Safety
DBarlar wrote:
Hello Folks - I have been lurking for a few weeks (you people are a riot!)as I am considering purchasing a Vespa 250 or 300. One of my primary concerns is convincing my wife that scootering is relatively safe. I would wear protective clothing/helmet and take the motorcycle safety course. I'd appreciate any feed back/experiences you fine folks may have had relative to how safe scooter riding is.

Thank you.
Who told you it was safe? you are 37% more likely to die in a crash then in a car. with that being said. Take the MSF class learn to ride safely. Why do people think just because its called a scooter you are safer then a motorcycle. they both crash the same ways

BTW if you pass a car with that cool new GTS or other scooter be ready for that car to tailgate you and cut you off at his first chance.

Funny thing that never happens when I ride My Harley

one more thing take all the classes get everything you need before you buy the scooter. some people quit the class and decide they did not like riding or they crash the new scooter before even getting to the class.
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Re: Safety
175mws wrote:
DBarlar wrote:
Hello Folks - I have been lurking for a few weeks (you people are a riot!)as I am considering purchasing a Vespa 250 or 300. One of my primary concerns is convincing my wife that scootering is relatively safe. I would wear protective clothing/helmet and take the motorcycle safety course. I'd appreciate any feed back/experiences you fine folks may have had relative to how safe scooter riding is.

Thank you.
Who told you it was safe? you are 37% more likely to die in a crash then in a car. with that being said. Take the MSF class learn to ride safely. Why do people think just because its called a scooter you are safer then a motorcycle. they both crash the same ways

BTW if you pass a car with that cool new GTS or other scooter be ready for that car to tailgate you and cut you off at his first chance.

Funny thing that never happens when I ride My Harley

one more thing take all the classes get everything you need before you buy the scooter. some people quit the class and decide they did not like riding or they crash the new scooter before even getting to the class.
Thanks for the info - actually I believe that the statistic is 35x more likely to die which equates to 3,500% (NHSTA)
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Don't you think that where you ride is a big factor ?

I've live in a very small town, about 7,000 people, in SE Ohio. Most of my riding is in and around town and on the whole I feel very safe riding in town.

I do take care at intersections. I try never to be the first guy through or I'll wait a bit after the green to see what happens. Case in point. This morning as the light turned green. I saw that the huge dump truck was not going to stop and he ran the red light. If I was in my truck normally going through the light he probably would have gotten me. But my waiting routine on the scooter worked out just fine.

Of course the slower speed in town also works in my favor.

Just a thought...
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Re: Safety
DBarlar wrote:
Thanks for the info - actually I believe that the statistic is 35x more likely to die which equates to 3,500% (NHSTA)
Could you provide a link to that NHTSA statistic? Would be interesting to read

Al
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Re: Safety
Aviator47 wrote:
DBarlar wrote:
Thanks for the info - actually I believe that the statistic is 35x more likely to die which equates to 3,500% (NHSTA)
Could you provide a link to that NHTSA statistic? Would be interesting to read

Al
Please click "Traffic Safety Facts: Motorcycle 2007: and see top of page 3 of attached NHTSA 2007 document.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/menuitem.d7975d55e8abbe089ca8e410dba046a0/
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mjm50cal wrote:
Scootering is not inherently safe.
Scootering is not inherently dangerous.
You are the variable in the equation that tips the scale from one side to another.
Factors:
Judgement
Awareness
Fear or lack there of
visibility
proper gear
maintenance
And the mistress of all chance, "LUCK"
Add to that:

* No one driving near you with a cell phone glued to their ear.
* No one driving near you with a cell phone glued to their ear and putting on make-up
* No one driving near you with blue hair.
* No one driving (usually a Buick) as that is the choice of older folks
* No one driving near you that has the seat so low and so far back they can hardly see over the steering wheel.

Anyone else have a few?
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* No one driving near you


⚠️ Last edited by xantufrog on UTC; edited 1 time
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When you are on a scooter, YOU are responsible for your own safety. This sounds like common sense, but it is so much more important than if you are in a car. Here are some tips that I like to follow:

1. Always be attentive to everything around you.
2. Look in your mirrors frequently to see what traffic may be coming behind you.
3. Keep a safe distance from any vehicles in front of you and be ready to stop if necessary. I like to be able to see enough of the road in front of me so I can avoid or stop if there are any road hazards or debris in my path.
4. When going through a light or intersection, slow down and look both ways. Don't assume that people are going to stop for lights or stop signs.
5. If someone doesn't look like they are going to stop, use your horn to get their attention or slow down and let the knucklehead go.
6. Realize that people driving cars are distracted by many things; conversation, cell phones, texting, radios, eating, etc.; and are not really paying attention to other people on the road.
7. Never ride in a car's blind spot. Either pull ahead of the car or slow down so you can see their mirrors. That way they can see you.
8. When I'm passing a car or if I'm in traffic on a four-lane roadway, I always pull as far away in the lane from the vehicle that I'm passing just in case they decide to make a quick turn into the lane. This way I can steer away from them or brake and not be hit.
9. Be careful going around cars making turns. Traffic coming the other way may not see you and may turn in front of you. Slow down.
10. Wear bright clothing and protective clothing at all times. A fall at any speed can cause enough injury to your body and is potentially dangerous.
11. Always assume that the driver of the car is going to do something stupid.
12. Take the motorcycle safety course in MA. Understand the traffic laws and follow them.
13. Practice early in the morning and on sparsely traveled roads until you get more comfortable in maneuvering and handling your scoot. It shouldn't take you long to do this.
14. Some scooter shops have basic scooter training to get you up & running quickly.

All that being said; scooters are pretty safe and fun to ride. I ride mine all over the place and my wife and daughters all ride too.
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xantufrog wrote:
* No on driving near you


Not fair, I don't fit into any of those categories, especially the Buick! And I wish I had hair that I could use that blue color stuff older ladies use.
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Re: Safety
DBarlar wrote:
Aviator47 wrote:
DBarlar wrote:
Thanks for the info - actually I believe that the statistic is 35x more likely to die which equates to 3,500% (NHSTA)
Could you provide a link to that NHTSA statistic? Would be interesting to read

Al
Please click "Traffic Safety Facts: Motorcycle 2007: and see top of page 3 of attached NHTSA 2007 document.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/menuitem.d7975d55e8abbe089ca8e410dba046a0/
DBarlar, You got the 35x part of the stat right, but that does not equal a 3,500% increase in likelihood. That's taking one type of figure and trying to convert it to another by multiplying it by 100 it and applying it in an inaccurate context. Think of it this way: If something is 2x as likely to occur, there's a 100% increase in likelihood.

I guess you could say there were 3500% more fatalities per 100million vehicle miles traveled, but even that's a little confusing because percentages aren't usually used this way.
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There's some very good advice in all of the above posts.
My advice is to read all of the posts several times.

The most important question that you must ask yourself is, Are you a person who is acutely aware of everything that is going on around you? If you're not, you're more likely to be involved in an accident. You must assume that everyone around you is going to either run over you, pull out in front of you, rear-end you, etc.
If you ride with this philosophy and you have good reaction times and good balance, you'll do just fine. If you don't, give it a lot of thought before making the decision to purchase a scooter.
Good luck with your decision.
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Add to the list - fit a better horn. I have fitted a Stebel twin airhorn on my Vespa LX 125 and so car drivers can now hear me which is half the battle.
⚠️ Last edited by Rogthemod on UTC; edited 2 times
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You can improve your odds over the averages very easily by eliminating the biggest factors associated with motorcycle fatalities:
1. Not wearing a helmet
2. Alcohol
3. Single vehicle crashes at high speed
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I would suggest that you not assume that everyone around you will do something stupid or careless, but to assume that they might do so at any time.

A subtle difference, I know, but the first assumption can make you (or me, at least) awfully twitchy while the latter keeps one aware of possible scenarios and prepared to deal with them.

The safest way to ride is to position yourself so as to avoid calamity, rather than counting on your ability to react when it happens.

Lots of good advice in the posts above, as well.

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