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Raisin Hell you are! I guess with that analogy I propose this: Scooterists shouldn't have to stop at all those stop signs because it wears a scooter out quicker. It's also hard on the hands to have to pull the clutch in and pull the brake to stop. If you have a twist & go It might develop Repetitive Stress Injuries or Tendonitis on your right arm. Yes, ludicrous!
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SteveinSac wrote:
Raisin Hell you are! I guess with that analogy I propose this: Scooterists shouldn't have to stop at all those stop signs because it wears a scooter out quicker. It's also hard on the hands to have to pull the clutch in and pull the brake to stop. If you have a twist & go It might develop Repetitive Stress Injuries or Tendonitis on your right arm. Yes, ludicrous!
No shit! Cars shouldn't have to stop either. Constant stopping and starting puts wear and tear on the braking system and transmission from having to shift gears so often. It's also wasting much fossil fuels, as accelerating from a stop is what uses the most fuel.

Eliminate STOP signs!
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Raisin Hell wrote:
genie wrote:
true, but it's by no means a valid excuse for caning it through a stop sign or traffic light unless you're the only person around.
Nah, I wasn't excusing this particular instance. Just trying to get people to think about what it takes to power a bicycle.

Although the law (in the US) says you have to obey all moving vehicle traffic regulations, does that really makes sense when you're people-powered?

I don't think so.
When it comes to stop signs and stop lights... yes it does. I've had to do some serious avoidance of bikes lately. (and yes, I ride a people powered 2 wheeler daily).
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Vinny you wrote...
"Most of us do follow the rules of the road."

Based on my observations over a long period of time...
I definately take issue with your statement!
To me it is not just a few giving the many a bad rap...
I sure wish it were different.

Just in the last couple of days I've experienced riders riding
side by side, then one riding the shoulder of a major 4 lane
highway with heavy vehicle traffic and the corker
a cyclist riding one handed while talking on the cell phone.

Another thought I had was I've seen cyclists riding the edge
of a busy road and a not many feet away is a bicycle path that
runs along side of it!
These cycling paths are all over our area and cost millions+
in tax dollars to build and maintain.

Rant over!!!
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Re: Sorry
vinny72758 wrote:
I apologize for the idiot that ran the stop sign and you almost hit. As a serious cyclist (yes I wear spandex, race 46 weekends a year, and shave the legs) I admit that was stupid, foolish and an asshat thing to do.

But I am also disappointed by some of the generalizations in this topic. Not all or most spandex wearing, leg shaving 'Lance wannabes' break all the traffic rules, ride two abreast (which even in Wisconsin is legal. There they can ride no more than two abreast and as far to the right as deemed safe and practicable). Most of us do follow the rules of the road. But as my dad used to tell me as a kid "It only takes one 'Oh Shit' to erase 100 'atta boys'."

It's called selective memory. We remember the guy who runs the stop sign, or hogs the lane because he annoyed the shit out of us. But we probably never even saw or registered the other hundred riders we passed in the last month that were obeying the rules, because they didn't annoy the shit out of us.

So before you go lumping us all together as asshats, remember only a real few of us are. In the U.S. there are 15 million recreational cyclists who ride 3 or more days a week. If we were all asshats, there'd be a lot more bitching.

Personally, stop signs and signals don't bother me. Gives me a chance to practice track stands (standing in one place without moving the feet off the pedals) and to do interval work between lights and signs. Plus it's funny as hell to keep pace with the kids in the pimped out mid-90's P.O.S. Mustang who keeps getting madder at each light when he can't shake you.

Off my soap box now.

Vinny (who uses his GTS to haul his bike to races every weekend and 140 miles one way to race each Tuesday during the summer.)
I am going to stand up for Birdsnest on this one. I have been an avid cyclist since the 80s in Oklahoma and Texas (both Dallas and Austin). Unfortunately, not so much anymore. For some reason, cyclists, particularly serious ones in Dallas and Austin tend to not stop at stop signs or traffic lights. They also like to make left hand turns from right lanes. They generally just do not like to obey the traffic laws. Yes, it is a generalization; however, here it is justified and not overstated. I do not know where the attitude comes from, because it existed before Lance (I started riding about the same time as he did in the same circles in both Dallas and Austin). There are also a lot of rude cagers that are overtly aggressive and violent towards cyclists (ask me how it feels to get hit in the shoulder by a side mirror Crying or Very sad emoticon ) Maybe it's a chicken and egg thing. Maybe the hicks were rude first, and so the cyclists have just developed a permanent attitude. I obey the laws, because I don't want to get killed.
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Good discussion all - I must say that in general I agree most with Vinnie's statements. (I've raced in the Rogers, AR area before - about 18 years ago..., and still have a 'Burger Barn' jersey from Searcy, AR)

Having raced bicycles for over a decade and done a fair amount of chasing his 'Lanceness' down in more road races than I care to remember; I can say that I have seen it all over the years. My teammates and I would regularly average well over 20,000 miles annually on our bikes.

To this day, I have not run a red light (nor rolled a stop sign) that would have in any way at all impeded cross traffic or anyone else in any way. It's not that hard to do, if one not only values their own lives a little bit, but actually has a bit of a conscience and awareness about them that they aren't the only ones on the road.

Yes, it is all relative and situational as to what is correct to do in any given situation (on scooters as well as bicycles), meaning I think that many actions of cyclists can be justified IF they aren't endangering themselves or others.

But I too have zero tolerance of my fellow cyclists who do stupid shit and have been known in the past to harass others to the point that they essentially quit riding with us because they wouldn't straighten their manners and priorities out for the better good of everyone.

On another note, though I think (know) that Lance is a complete ass as a competitor, I hope he does well this year!

Desi B.
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Where I live is a small town (Sausalito, California) of about 7,000 people, we get 500 to 1500 bicyclists a day durning the summer. Last year the residents got fed up with the crowds, bad behavior, lack of respect in parking bikes, etc, so they got the city council to take action.

Many signs have been posted, marked bicycle parking areas set up, representatives of the bike rental shops in town to help with problems, and the police give tickets to cyclists who run stop lights, stop signs and crosswalks with pedestrians in them.

Still there are those few who don't get it, but for the most part the local racers are obeying the traffic laws. It is kind of funny to see a patrol car pull over a cyclist, but I've seen it a few times on week days.

It is real simple. If you are on the bicycle, you follow the rules of the road (traffic laws). If you are walking your bike, you are a pedestrian.
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Rustle wrote:
It is real simple. If you are on the bicycle, you follow the rules of the road (traffic laws). If you are walking your bike, you are a pedestrian.
+1
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The simple facts of the matter are that idiots come in all shapes, sizes, genders, colours and creeds and they ride/drive all different means of transportation ... from skateboards to semi trucks.

I do not endanger myself or others and respect the fact that we ALL share the roadways and are subject to the same rules. If someone willfully breaks the law, putting themselves (and others) at risk ... I could care less what happens to them. What I do care about is how their riding/driving habits affect the safety of others!
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^ Exactly.

Scooterists aren't immune from not following the law exactly.

In every scooter group I've been in here, when we do group rides, we go through red lights and stop signs as a group--which is clearly technically against the law.

While most motorists think "how cute", I'm sure there are some who go on some auto message boards and pour forth the vile against scooterists that we see against bicyclists in this thread.

We are not immune.

As I've said a couple times before, I'm not excusing the cyclist in the OP's post for blowing through that intersection. I'm just trying to broaden the conversation and bring a little empathy for cyclists.
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Black Angel wrote:
Another thought I had was I've seen cyclists riding the edge
of a busy road and a not many feet away is a bicycle path that
runs along side of it!
These cycling paths are all over our area and cost millions+
in tax dollars to build and maintain.

Rant over!!!
Bike paths are exceedingly dangerous to bicycle riders. They are immediately flooded with runners, walkers and the most dangerous, unpredictable thing in the world: someone pushing a stroller. They like to stop immediately and turn the stroller sideways to check on the baby crying. Blocks half the road in the process.

And you get runners running against traffic that won't move out of the way, walkers just going all over the place, etc.

Let's face it, everyone pisses someone else off.


Get used to it!
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You should see it here in Colorado!! People are more scared of the bicyclists than they are of gangs. Probably because there's more of them. Around here, cyclists own the road. Literally. If you don't go cycling, you're kind of a wierdo, and are therefore completely ignored by those who do, especially when they're out there owning their road. When the light changes green here, you don't just pause because of someone running the light in a car, you pause to see where all the cyclists are going to cross... because they can cross whenever and wherever they want to. That's just how it goes.

Not all cyclists are bad around here. But there's so damn many of them, it's impossible not to have a lot who spoil it.

I just bought a new 7-speed cruiser bicycle myself, for liesurely riding. But I'm sticking to the sidewalks and with the traffic lights, because I don't want a sports cyclist to squash me.
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Witch wrote:
I just bought a new 7-speed cruiser bicycle myself, for liesurely riding. But I'm sticking to the sidewalks and with the traffic lights, because I don't want a sports cyclist to squash me.
Now that's a problem we have here in Sacramento. Cyclist are afraid to ride on the streets so they ride on the sidewalks. The problem with this is allot of the cyclist expect you to yield to them. I don't know about your town but here it's against the law yet our local P.D. and CHP officers on bikes ride on the sidewalks. WTF? Wha? emoticon
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From what I understand, the cyclists here can go pretty much where ever they want. I doubt that's the law, but that's what everyone does. Most of them do ride on the street, even in those extremely rare spots that don't have bike lanes. They don't expect the cars to yield, they know they're going to.

I've seen plenty of people riding on the sidewalk, but generally they aren't the type who would randomly ride into an intersection or squash other people. And I've never seen any of them get busted, even when the cops are hanging around the same spot. Might be different in the larger cities, but I'm in a suburb of a suburb, so they're probably a little more laid back here.
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RGCONNER wrote...
"Get used to it!"

Obviously from reading this thread I see that the many cyclists,
that don't feel it necessary to adhere to the rules of the road
upset a lot of folks!

So maybe you have to get used to their venting!

In my opinion being able to vent in general forum like this,
is better than letting it build up to road rage!
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Cyclists and asshats
I am an avid cyclist, I ride at least 70 miles a week, and do metric centuries and such. I use clipless pedals.
I am an avid scooterist. I ride my scooter when I don't ride my bike (in fact, the bike is feeling a little neglected lately).
The laws of physics apply equally to everybody. Thus on either vehicle, in a collision, against a 3000 lb car I will lose, every time.

I ride like I cycle. Assume the other idiot doesn't see you. Obey all traffic laws. Wear appropriate protective clothing. I have seen asshats in and out of spandex. They come in cars, on motorcycles, scooters and bikes.
Accidents will take care of those who flout the laws of physics in the mistaken belief that they have a 'right' to something. Darwinism works for everybody too.
Have I gone through stop signs on my bike? Yes, but only on those streets where I can see ahead enough to 'scan' the intersection for hazards, and I slow down in case I do have to stop. (Most motorists are surprised when I do stop for them). Have I ever run a red light? Only when there is policeman in that intersection stopping traffic for me during a race. Anything else is suicidal.
⚠️ Last edited by BleuBelle on UTC; edited 1 time
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Nice article. I'd have to agree with this,

"If they want to be treated like they belong on the road, they need to obey the common rules for people on the road"

followed by a cop saying

"Bicyclists have to follow the exact same rules of the road as a motor vehicle."

With all their points they left out the most often violated law, "Impeding the flow of traffic." i.e. driving too slow.
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Eh,
live & let live

Last I looked,
bicycles are already prohibited from roads where the minimum speed applies to them
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L from Jersey wrote:
Eh,
live & let live

Last I looked,
bicycles are already prohibited from roads where the minimum speed applies to them
In California, that requires either a posting or that it is part of the Interstate system.

Pretty much anything with ramps for access and no cross streets.

Other than that, you are just like any other slow vehicle on a road: stay in the right lane. You still have a right to be there.
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rgconner wrote:
L from Jersey wrote:
Eh,
live & let live

Last I looked,
bicycles are already prohibited from roads where the minimum speed applies to them
In California, that requires either a posting or that it is part of the Interstate system.

Pretty much anything with ramps for access and no cross streets.

Other than that, you are just like any other slow vehicle on a road: stay in the right lane. You still have a right to be there.
In most states that's actually not entirely true. While a bike can go on those other roads if they cannot go with the speed of traffic they will still be in violation. Most state codes I've seen are very much like Virginia's §46.2-877 which reads;

"No person shall drive a motor vehicle at such a slow speed as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic except when reduced speed is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law. "

Under §46.2-905 bicyclists are allowed to go under the speed of traffic IF they stay far to the right, which they don't. So when a bicyclist goes 25 on a posted 45 in the middle of the lane they would be in violation of both statues.
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Yes, that's a point
Some bicyclists do seem to have a death wish
Especially the crazies who try to turn cycling in traffic into a social occasion,
going two abreast in heavy traffic

But most of the time they're just trying to make it down the road
without getting stuck in a grate or thrown off the bike by a pothole

A lot of road hazards that are invisible to cagers or even scooter folks
are huge to bicyclists
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BoomieMCT wrote:
In most states that's actually not entirely true.
Glad I live in California.
BoomieMCT wrote:
Under §46.2-905 bicyclists are allowed to go under the speed of traffic IF they stay far to the right, which they don't.
Isn't this statement a bit of an exaggeration? that is, "all bicyclists don't stay to the far right"?
As mentioned before, there are times when hazards on the road may force a rider to "pull into the lane" momentarily, which he/she needs to execute carefully to avoid being killed, but not all riders are aholes who "always" ride in the middle of the lane (which is suicidal in all states).
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kedierluc wrote:
Isn't this statement a bit of an exaggeration? that is, "all bicyclists don't stay to the far right"?
As mentioned before, there are times when hazards on the road may force a rider to "pull into the lane" momentarily, which he/she needs to execute carefully to avoid being killed, but not all riders are aholes who "always" ride in the middle of the lane (which is suicidal in all states).
I don't think people are having problem with riders who hug the curb except to avoid the occasional pitfall. There are a TON of riders here who feel that they need to "own the lane" by riding right in the middle. On a 25 mph road, that's not so bad. On anything faster, or anything with an uphill grade, they should get a ticket.

My bicycle hate started at the last place I lived. Right nearby there is a steep uphill road with a 35 mph limit and a bike path on the side. Bicyclists never used the path and instead would go uphill in the middle of the road. They claimed the path was too hard to go uphill on because of joggers. In four years I never saw a bicyclist go uphill on the path.
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kedierluc wrote:
Glad I live in California.
California has CVC 22400-22413 which is nearly verbatim the same thing. 21202 is almost verbatim like Virginia's §46.2-905 bicycle laws.

Looking that up I saw 21203 which says you can be towed behind a car on a skateboard. Marty McFly was breaking the law!
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"While I don't think bicyclists should completely ignore the rules of the road, there is one very important difference that regulations don't really take into account:

Bicycles are people powered, not engine powered.

So when a car or scooter comes to a stop sign and starts again, it's a mere twist of the hand or push of a gas pedal. For a bicyclist, it's real work to get started again.

And when you consider most stop signs are there to control speeding cars, they don't make sense for bicyclists.

Again, I'm not saying they should be above the law (or common sense!), but it's a hell of a lot more work to constantly stop and start a bicycle at every other block.

Just something to think about."


So, pedestrians don't need to follow the rules either. Only powered vehicles.

Saw two bikes BOTH run stop signs in Hermosa last week at right angles. They just barely missed each other with one doing 25 and the other downhill at 30.
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Bicyclists who don't obey the law are lazy and selfish. Its that simple.

If you want to go for the kind of ride where stopping is a very rare part of the experience, then set aside time and the proper place to ride that way. Its selfish to ride like its a crit while commuting etc.

The reason for road laws, and it surprises me that no one's said this thus far, is that we don't infringe upon each other in an adverse way. There's no excuse not to be courteous and FAIR to others on the road.

And I'm another one of those whose been bicycling long before scooters.

Harv
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BoomieMCT wrote:
My bicycle hate started at the last place I lived.
Don't hate us because we look "marvelous" in spandex Razz emoticon
BoomieMCT wrote:
Right nearby there is a steep uphill road with a 35 mph limit and a bike path on the side. Bicyclists never used the path and instead would go uphill in the middle of the road. They claimed the path was too hard to go uphill on because of joggers. In four years I never saw a bicyclist go uphill on the path.
My teenage sons are competitive cyclists, and when we train, the average speed of the group is 22-25mph. At this speed, it is dangerous to ride on the separate bike paths, due to the joggers, roller skaters, and pedestrians, which become major road hazards. Here in Orange County, almost every road has a bike lane on the road, and thus, we train on them.

In the case you mention, it sounds like it is a decent uphill, for which serious cyclists will take the road, for the reasons stated, and casual bikers will avoid the hill, altogether, thus you only see cyclist on the road.
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kedierluc wrote:
...it is dangerous to ride on the separate bike paths, due to the joggers, roller skaters, and pedestrians, which become major road hazards.
And when I consider that it's dangerous for me to ride on the road because of all the pedestrians and cyclists behaving erratically, is it OK if I scooter on the pavement?
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BoomieMCT wrote:
My bicycle hate started at the last place I lived. Right nearby there is a steep uphill road with a 35 mph limit and a bike path on the side. Bicyclists never used the path and instead would go uphill in the middle of the road. They claimed the path was too hard to go uphill on because of joggers. In four years I never saw a bicyclist go uphill on the path.
Actually, often such bike paths are not really available to bicyclists

Back in NJ, there were very few sidewalks,
so during nice weather, the moms really enjoyed strolling on the bike paths

I gave up on the bike path to work after repeatedly coming around a bend
(usually at top speed, because I was late)
and encountering 2-3 moms with strollers
and a couple of bored, but very mobile toddlers (each)
all stopped on the path

In such situations, the right thing is to stop and walk the bike,
but on a steep uphill, that means walking up the rest of the hill
OK if I'm out for exercise, but not so OK when commuting
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In most states it's legal for cyclists to ride 2 up in the road, regardless of the posted speed limit and amount of traffic (some states do require you to go single file when traffic approaches). In Idaho it's legal for cyclist to ride through stop signs when there is no other traffic around- other states are also considering this law.

As two-wheeled users of roads shared by cars, cyclists and scooterists have a similar need to promote safety and awareness in their communities. Getting on the forum and berating cyclists for what they wear and how aggressively they do or don't ride is a waste of time (and somewhat ironic considering the amount of crap scooterists get from the motorcycle and car communities).

I'm a fan of anything on 2 wheels- I've owned motorcycles, scooters and I'm a spandex-wearing bicycle racer. It seems a bit silly to me that we're marginalizing cyclists here. Show the asshats who behave dangerously what they're doing wrong and move on.
⚠️ Last edited by bolter9 on UTC; edited 1 time
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bolter9 wrote:
I'm a fan of anything on 2 wheels- I've owned motorcycles, scooters and I'm a spandex-wearing bicycle racer. It seems a bit silly to me that we're marginalizing cyclists here. Show the asshats who behave dangerously what they're doing wrong and move on.
I am with you!

2 wheels good, 4 wheels bad!

(apologies to George Orwell)
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bolter9 wrote:
As two-wheeled users of roads shared by cars, cyclists and scooterists have a similar need to promote safety and awareness in their communities. Getting on the forum and berating cyclists for what they wear and how aggressively they do or don't ride is a waste of time (and somewhat ironic considering the amount of crap scooterists get from the motorcycle and car communities).
I agree and apologize again for my earlier tirade

I think that there's an important lesson here for scooter riders
Clearly the perspective is quite different from the saddle of a bicycle
versus that of a powered vehicle

Things like biking up a steep hill on the road next to a bicycle path
or going through a stop sign full speed to conserve energy
can make sense or seem crazy, depending on your vehicle

It's a good thing to keep in mind
as we're riding our scooters in a sea of 4-wheel traffic
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kedierluc wrote:
My teenage sons are competitive cyclists, and when we train, the average speed of the group is 22-25mph. At this speed, it is dangerous to ride on the separate bike paths, due to the joggers, roller skaters, and pedestrians, which become major road hazards. Here in Orange County, almost every road has a bike lane on the road, and thus, we train on them.
I've had training on how to race cars - doesn't mean I should drive on public roads how I would on the track. If the bicyclists can't ride safely where they are, they should find somewhere where they can.
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Benelli Boy wrote:
And when I consider that it's dangerous for me to ride on the road because of all the pedestrians and cyclists behaving erratically, is it OK if I scooter on the pavement?
?? something must've been lost on the translation
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BoomieMCT wrote:
I've had training on how to race cars - doesn't mean I should drive on public roads how I would on the track. If the bicyclists can't ride safely where they are, they should find somewhere where they can.
You missed my point. We have the legal choice to ride on the road and/or the bike paths. We choose to ride on the road, for the previously mentioned reasons. Nowhere I've previously stated that I ride "unsafely" or in the middle of the road, nor I condone taking lights.

You can use this info to understand why some cyclist would use the road vs the bike paths, or you can continue hating the cyclists, due to your previous experiences with a minority of misbehaving idiots. BTW, there are plenty of idiots on both camps (ie scooterists and cyclists), but you can't generalize that all scooterists are idiots and shouldn't be riding on the road.
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bolter9 wrote:
As two-wheeled users of roads shared by cars, cyclists and scooterists have a similar need to promote safety and awareness in their communities. Getting on the forum and berating cyclists for what they wear and how aggressively they do or don't ride is a waste of time (and somewhat ironic considering the amount of crap scooterists get from the motorcycle and car communities).
Well said, and I couldn't agree more.
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kedierluc wrote:
Benelli Boy wrote:
And when I consider that it's dangerous for me to ride on the road because of all the pedestrians and cyclists behaving erratically, is it OK if I scooter on the pavement?
?? something must've been lost on the translation
Sorry. The problem we have over here, as much as cyclists shooting red lights on the road, is that a significant number of them just use the pavements instead. "Because it's safer".

I was just extending that "logic".
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Benelli Boy wrote:
Sorry. The problem we have over here, as much as cyclists shooting red lights on the road, is that a significant number of them just use the pavements instead. "Because it's safer".

I was just extending that "logic".
Ok, now I get it. Every time I've been in Cambridge (UK), I've noticed that behaviour.
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