Modern Vespa

About.com has an article on the latest safety device that the National Highway Safety guys want to add to 2 wheel riders.



http://motorcycles.about.com/b/2009/07/02/nhtsa-considers-making-abs-mandatory-for-motorcycles.htm?nl=1

Makes sense to me. ABS equipped bikes are clearly involved in fewer fatal mishaps, and if only half that reduction is directly attributed to the ABS, then it should be required. We're not talking about something that restricts our ability to ride or will price PTWs out of reach.

Al

I wish the ABS equipped Vespas were available here, I'd already have one. I wonder if it can be added aftermarket?

Many of the Chinese scooters advertise ABS on the front wheel.

I am adamantly against this being mandatory. It should be the rider's choice.

ABS on a motorcycle or scooter has some drawbacks. I used to own a BMW R1150RT with ABS. If you attempted to brake on pavement that was irregular (like a washboard), the brakes would malfunction and you would essentially have NO brakes as long as the pavement stayed irregular. This was well known around the world by owners of BMW's with ABS brakes who had this happen to them. This happened to me several times on a patches of country roads, east of San Diego, in the vicinity of Lake Cuyamaca. The BMW Sport Touring Site is loaded with posts about this problem. It's very un-nerving to have this happen to you and after the third or fourth time it happened to me and BMW claimed that there was nothing wrong with their braking system, I sold the bike. I told the man that I sold it to exactly why I was selling it and he said that he was going to primarily ride on Interstate highways so this problem didn't concern him. I have not kept up with this issue since selling the bike in 2005 so I don't know if the problem still exists or if BMW came up with a fix or re-design for their bikes with ABS.
The other problem with their specific ABS system at the time (ABS-2 system) was that you had to bleed the brakes at the ABS pump. This was extremely difficult to bleed and most people who had bled their own brakes for years had to take the bikes to the dealer for this service (which they charged a bunch for as the procedure required a special pump that cost a bunch of $$$$).
Things I learned from owning an ABS equipped motorcycle:
*(ABS does not shorten your braking distance: In fact, it lengthens it.
*It's difficult to bleed and maintain the system
*It's ridiculously expensive to repair if the ABS pump goes out (this happened to more than a dozen people who were out of warranty on the BMWS Sport Touring site and it cost them over $2k to replace the pump)
*It CAN help an inexperienced rider from having the rear end slide out from under them in an emergency braking situation or if the rider is over-aggressive with the brakes in the rain.
*IMO: It should NEVER be required equipment for ALL riders. I have no problem with it being offered as an option for those who believe that they need it.
BTW: I have logged well over 600k miles on motorcycles and have owned around 40 of them so I'm not a novice rider. I've also NEVER had an accident on a motorcycle or while driving an automobile. Awareness, common sense and experience will always trump gadgets and so-called, safety equipment that adds weight and $$$ to the cost of the machine.

Great, more mandatory safety shit

There would be a lot less accidents if every vehicle came with a large steel spike in the middle of the handlebars/steering wheel

Don't put pets under the seat, folks, and ride safe. Remember not to jam your brakes right on when it's raining

I agree. I'm against mandatory helmet laws, too, even though I live in a state that doesn't have that law. I also wear my helmet all the time, so don't go off on a helmet tangent in this thread.

Indeed sir - spoken with intelligence

It is all a plot to save GM and Harley by making scoots as heavy and as expensive as they are, thus eliminating the competition.

/tinfoilhat

It's just the way machinery is developing Perceived safety is very high on the list nowadays. Add that to the fact that society is turning into a fat lazy doughnut that can't park a car without electronic help, and you can see why everything is so damn heavy. Manufacturers develop technology to make engines sip a little less fuel, but saving weight hasn't taken off yet.

For example I drive a smallish car. But it's heavy, around 1500kg. It gets around 40 mpg and nearly 140 mph. If it weighed a ton it would be faster, cleaner, better round the bends and I'd be too happy with it to miss the 6 airbags and the ESPFU200XXLY safety system, which just flashes lights at me and makes the car drive weird whenever the allmighty electronics decide I'm almost having fun. Bah.

Give me old stuff any day.

I used to have one of those BMW GS trail bikes equipped with ABS and I thought it was great. You could almost ignore the road surface when braking - the only indication that it was working was the strange twittering noise and a slight juddering through the bars. Of course this meant I just rode faster in bad conditions so any safety aspect was cancelled out by my own stupidity.

On the bad side fitting ABS to motorbikes is quite expensive, adds to the weight and the list of things to go wrong. ABS as an option adds roughly £800 to the price tag of an £8000 BMW which is a 10% increase. Adding the same £800 ABS to a £3000 scooter adds 25% to the price. You'd also need more electronics and a bigger battery. Having ABS on just the front wheel would be a cheaper solution as long as the rider is capable of dealing with a rear wheel skid. Certainly no-one is capable of dealing with a front wheel skid.

Oddly I haven't had so many issues with tyre grip as I used to with my big bikes. It's certainly not because I'm going any slower. It just feels that scooter tyres seem to have more grip that larger bikes but I have no proof behind this. Maybe it's because of less weight, less dive on the forks and the tyres run warmer.

Mike

PS: My BMW died a violent death when an uninsured driver shot through 2 lanes of fast flowing traffic and hit me head on. I didn't see him coming and I never got to even use my fancy brakes. C'est la vie. On the good side it got me into scootering as the BMW shop only had a scooter as a replacement bike when I recovered

PS2: MY BMW was bought in 1996 which makes it older than the touring BMW mentioned above but I never had the issues mentioned above - perhaps it was model specific. I would also argue against ABS being mandatory but simply cause I can't stand the idea of a nanny state. If you want to be totally safe then drive a hummer.

Judging by all the I just got Tboned threds or I crashed my Scooter riders can use ABS. lets face it most scooter riders are new to riding and can use the help. BMW has ABS on almost all bikes in the line up. As far as Harley Davidson ABS is a option for $$$$

Learning how to use your brakes properly costs nothing, and is still better than ABS

I have tried to lock my wheels on my GTS going around 40Mph and it stops very smooth with out lockup so I'm not sure if it will help on light weight bikes. But on a larger bike ABS can be a life saver.

Also the CVT keeps you from locking the rear wheel on a scooter during a rapid stop.

I'm not disagreeing with you mate! ABS does work! But, clever as it is, it's not as good as a human being

P:S I can lock the back wheel on my s50 at about 30 On purpose, of course...

As an option I think I'd like it on the front.

On two occasions I've had to lock them up and the front end went haywire.

Probaly not as clever as a highly experienced, highly alert rider with exceedling quick reflexes. For the rest of us?

I have ABS on my Burgman Ex. It has kicked in one time when a Semi lost it in front of me at 70 mph. I was and still am VERY glad to have it.

I try to practice hard stops on both my rides the vespa stops the best. I have not been able to lock up any wheel. Now the HD I've locked up many times and wish ABS was on my bike. ABS is not a cure for crashing just an aid. like a helmet may save your life.

Yes they do. However this is not really ABS. There is no speed sensor, no controlled braking.

What they have is basicaly a dump valve. If you squeeze the lever "too hard" it will dump off some of the hydraulic brake fluid pressure.

My opinion is that theses are VERY dangerous! Just when you need as mych brake as you can get it starts loosing pressure and screwing with your control.

Yes, because I also owned a R1200C and it had a different ABS system that allowed you to bleed the brakes using the standard procedure. But, if the pump went out (and a bunch did and who posted on the Chromeheads site) it was a lot of $$$ to replace.

I was referring to the "power assisted ABS System" that was on the 2002-2005 BMW R1150RT model (and some others that they mfg.) I don't know if they made any changes in the later models.

Personally, I would never buy a motorcycle or a scooter with ABS. If the company only offered the model that I wanted, only with ABS, I would choose another model or brand that did not have this feature. YMMV

Good point.

What do you mean car manufactures aren't trying to lighten cars??? You are kidding right? Have you seen some of the stuff GM is doing to make a safe light car or SUV. You need to do some research in the materials car manufactures are using to lighten their vehicles up.

GM spent hundreds of thousands of dollars designing new frames for their pick up's that are close to half the weight but just as or stronger than the old design.

Wayne B

The rest of us should aspire to be that rider. I'm not saying that your point isn't valid (it very much is) but my problem is with mandatory safety equipment...before long it will be mandatory to stay in the house, wrapped in bubble plastic and cotton wool, just in case something happens...

I'm arguing a losing point here. I'm the guy who doesn't put his seatbelt on in the morning because it creases his shirt

I didn't mean it's not happening. My point was if the lightweight thing was developed at the same pace as unnecessary luxury gadgets then we could all be driving 65 mpg racers, instead of buckets of lard that turn their own wipers and lights on. I mean, the human has to do something too...

Read what I wrote. Where's the super-light car I can buy now? And I don't mean something like a Lotus Elise, something 'normal' i.e the Tata Nano is also out

If I'd had the same experience as you with the brakes failing completely then I'd be inclined to agree. My experience went the other way though and I thought that ABS was great on bigger bikes. I wouldn't bother with it on scooters though. I was also amazed at how you can travel 600k miles and not have an accident - do you have a very long private road?

LOL! Nope, just extremely aware of what's always going on in front, to the sides and behind me. I have always ridden with the expectation that anyone else on the road in my vicinity is going to hit me so I ride defensively. Taught my three sons to drive a car with this same expectation and none have yet had a wreck. They are 37, 36 and 27 years old so there's some validity to this method.

People buy what they wish to buy, and manufacturers make what people wish to buy. No one is forcing anyone to buy a car with a major electronic center in it, but folks just have to have all the bling.

The US automakers are on the rocks because the consumer decided to buy something else, and less of it. Until then, they built what people wanted, and people biught it by the millions. The myth that we are forced to buy heavy cars is pure horse-puckey. If you indeed live in Germany, you see the many lightweight compact cars that fill the roads.

Just because you would like a 65 mpg racer does not mean there is a sufficient market for one. Perhaps the rest of the world does not see "normal" as you do. If there was a market for the car you seem to dream of, and it could be made at a cost that catered to that market, it would be on the market.

Al

Or if people drive their cars/trucks/SUV's from the front bumper tail gating would def go down.

This is a photo of the area behind the left knee shield on an ABS equipped scoot.



from:

It's all different behind the left knee shield of my GTS

Perhaps possible, but totally impractical.
cheers

I agree that it should not be mandatory.

Thank you for informing me of what my aspirations should be. This is especially relevant coming from someone that has been riding an S50 for four months and can lock up the rear wheel "on purpose"

Very nice post. I am not sure about the motorcycle systems, but on cars ABS can also be unreliable in very wet weather, when you need it the most. Driving a car through a deep puddle can actually fritz out the system such that until things dry out your brakes cease to be anti-lock. This is a MAJOR problem in my mind, since you brake differently for antilock and standard brake systems. If you slam on the brakes counting on ABS in a car and they just lock up, you go into a bad place. I could see ABS on front wheels being appropriate on a motorcycle, maybe...

I'll have to say I like the ABS brakes on my truck. More than once they've kept me from sliding through an icy intersection.

My take?

ABS is great when it works. It is a danger when it breaks down. It does break down, and the danger and IMO the expense is not worth having it - even if voluntary. I don't think TPTB have thought through the 'responsibility' chain of H&S.

Oh, I was waiting for that...I suppose because I don't have this impressive mileage tally and don't ride one of the "fast" scooters my opinion means jack

Yes I do stuff like that. It helps me learn what the machine does in certain situations. Sort of "I'll do this on purpose, so I know a bit what it's like when it happens accidentally". I'm not an experienced rider. I am getting experienced in my own way.

I agree on the Chevy truck I had before the Ford I've got now the ABS brake module went bad a week after I bought the truck. It was used so it cost me over $600 to get it fixed. I found out later it was a known problem with that model truck.

Your statement was that ABS is not as clever as a human being. You continue by saying that you lock up the rear brake. I do not believe that I have ever heard that locking the rear is considered a proper braking method.

Speed is only one factor to consider when braking, weight of the scooter is also quite relevant. If you have been riding only a 50cc then you do not have any experience with heavier machines such as 250cc, 300cc, 400cc, or 650cc. The handling characteristics and yes the weight are quite different than a 50cc.

Your opinion is your opinion, thats fine

Your experience will grow as you do more riding and try different bikes. Really...there is no substitute for time on the road.

I wish you nothing but safe fun riding.

It can't be a bad idea to practise your braking. It's also not a bad idea to feel what a skid is like in a safe environment - say practising on grass at a relatively slow speed braking hard with your rear. You'd learn what a rear wheel skid feels like, how to control things and how to get rid of the skid. Practising hard braking from higher speeds obviously has it's risks but it can't be a bad idea to practise in a controlled environment rather than waiting till someone pulls out in front of you. Most people don't realise they can stop quite safely in the distance they have available and instead ram their brakes on too sharply, lock the front, and then crash. If they practised braking a little more then this would be less likely to happen. Obviously the more miles you do then the more experience you'll get and the safer you'll be but I think it's not a bad idea to practice the occasional emergency stop.

Practicing braking is an excellent idea!

Just remember that it is usually not the skid that get you..its the high sider after regaining traction.