Modern Vespa

No pet discussions in this thread, dammit! This is about keeping it cool.

So,

This link has been brought to my attention, and I found at least three promising products there:

Coolmat
Cool it mat
Thermo guard
plus, heat barriers in general.

One of the problems is, how to apply them and still make the pet carrier fit into the opening (or: are they equally effective if applied inside the carrier?)

Has anybody tried any of those, possibly for different applications, with what results?

Oops! ...Sorry for messing with your last attempt to discuss this
I thought you were kidding around

Are you trying to create an insulated storage area under the seat?

If it were me, I would try to prove feasibility
by sculpting a block (or 2, or 3) of Styrofoam to shape and trying it out,
then move on to working with more sophisticated insulators like those

It doesn't seem like there would be any problem putting the insulator inside the pet carrier
(unless you managed to melt the plastic between the insulator and the engine)

What are you going to carry in there after you get it insulated? Is this the radio thing?

Meow.

(Yes, unfortunately, I was serious). That storage bin does get very warm on longer rides. I don't know how this causes concern for others, but obviously it does. For me, I like to carry my camera and lenses in there, and too much heat is not good for them.

An occasional ice cream run would also benefit.

Insulating with styrofoam will probably work (but would take away too much space). Proving the concept won't help, though, if other insulation materials are different from styrofoam.

-. --- .-. .- -.. .. --- --..-- .--- ..- ... - .- -.-. .- -- . .-. .- .-.-.

On the other hand, all that extra heat it is very handy for late night drive thru runs!

The other handy material would be the insulation made of mylar sandwiching a sheet of bubble rap. Trim it up to any size.

http://www.radiantbarrier.com/bubble-foil-insulation.htm just as a reference to what I am talking about.

More expensive is a "duct tape" with foam in the inside. Very low profile, but very effective, and sticky on one side. I bet you could wrap the outside of the carrier with very little trouble.

Edit: Great minds run in small circles, see below...

I think anything that provided reflectivity and airspace would work.

I have considered doing this myself.

My thought was something like a layer of neoprene rubber, on the outside of the bucket, that was then covered with a layer of aluminum foil, as an example.

More suitable materials are more than likely avaialable ( fiberglass blanket and mylar maybe or fiberglass-mylar-fiberglass-mylar)

I'd think having it on the outside of the bucket, preventing the plastic from heating up, would work better it's just finding a relatively thin high efficiency insulator and then covering that with something heat reflective is the key.

edit: seems me and rgconner have the same idea's sorry about the apparent plagiarism, we just posted together (1 minute apart)

For almost the entire depth of the bin, there isn't even 1/4" play in total (which would have to be divided by two, for each side), so an outside insulation of any thickness is basically not working.

For the inside, the insulator needs to be somewhat crush-proof. Bubble wrap would possibly be too sensitive in that respect. Neoprene would be much better. Where is my 1/4" wetsuit that shrunk?

I am not educated in heat/radiation physics, so I have the question of whether a reflective (silver) film under the neoprene, inside the bin, would have any effect?

Edit: neoprene would not be ideal, if something of weight sits on it and compresses it. Same effect as deep diving: you lose the insulation property, at least at that compressed area.

Some aluminum foil, shiny side out, on the outside, especially the bottom will help. But for all practical purposes you can't do much. By the time you have effective insulation on the inside you won't have any space left.

-.-. --- --- .-.. --..-- / .. / .-.. .. -.- . / - .... . / .. -.. . .- .-.-.-

Yipee!! Physics



To block radiative heat flow (IR radiation from the engine):
Chrome the container or paint it white (to reflect the IR back to the engine, instead of absorbing it)

To block convective heat flow (probably not such a good idea):
Seal the container away from the engine,
so that air that's been heated by the engine does not circulate around it

To block the direct conduction of heat:
Put a thermal insulator (like the KOOLMAT INSULATION HEAT BARRIER)
between the container and the metal that the pet carrier usually sits on
and also incorporate it into a pouch around your camera stuff

Good insulating devices will block all three, like a down jacket:
* Is windproof
* Reflects your heat back to you because it's opaque to IR
* And has an insulating layer of still air inside it

.-.

Thanks for that quick tutorial. So, instead of a KOOLMAT camera pouch, would it be equally effective if KOOLMAT were applied to the inside of the entire bin?

Then I would glue a neoprene layer to the outside bottom (only bottom), cover the entire outside with this thin silver plastic film (emergency blanket), and cover all of the inside with a layer of KOOLMAT or similar. Does that sound like it would have a significant effect?

put your goddam camera in your top box. for chrisake^^*^*(^^%5 I really like the colour of your scoot

Yup, sounds quite promising!

If you're using glue, you'll probably want to degas out the solvents before you let it near your camera equipment
If you have access to a dehydrator, that should work

But you have to remember, unless you're actively cooling the compartment (passing some air through it or something) insulation just 'slows' the heating. Steady state, it is still going to heat up that box unless it has a way of cooling itself off, and you've got a nasty little insulator above it, your seat (both kinds in this case).

Has anybody ever tried spraying the outside of their underseat storage with Great Stuff? It's a spray insulator designed to seal holes in walls and stuff. It would conform perfectly and can be shaved to final dimensions after it's dry.

I wouldn't use the 'Great Stuff' just because you would never be able to get a smooth enough surface... but - if you found a local place that does spray foam for say - home, boat, etc work maybe they would do the pet carrier for you for free or a couple of bucks with their higher powered nozzles and such.

It could work well, though you are taking the risk of ruining the pet carrier too... (Maybe finding a spare one off of a salvage bike could be useful in this case).

Good luck,

Desi B.

Thanks, Linda. That's encouraging. Yeah, I'm aware of that. I have yet to put a thermometer in there to see what's really happening now, but I would expect something like 20 or so degrees less with insulation, even after a long time, and that might be very well worth it.

We'll see what else comes up in this thread.

How about getting A/C & Heat Duct Work Tape. It's what A/C installers use to secure the duct work in the attic. It is very thin, so it may work on the outside of the bucket.

Janine

There are two kinds of heating at play here: radiant heating directly from the hot engine, and conductive heating from the pet carrier being surrounded by trapped hot air that has been directly heated by the engine.

The solution to the radiant heating part, as many have stated, is to apply a reflective surface to the portions of the pet carrier that directly face the engine.

The solution to the conductive heating part is insulation. If you don't put the insulation under the reflective surface, the insulation will just heat up from the radiant component.

If you don't attack both components of the problem, whatever you do will probably be rather ineffective.

As an example, there are special musical instrument case covers available designed specifically for protecting stringed instruments that must be left inside a hot car. They have an outer layer of reflective mylar, and a layer of insulating padding beneath. The mylar reflects any sunlight coming through the car windows (radiant heating), and the insulation protects against conductive heating from the hot air trapped in the car.

Just thinking out loud (always a dangerous thing to do on a forum) but is there any way of funnelling cold air into and out of the top part of the engine compartment? Would that stop the build up of hot air? Obviously it won't stop the radiated heat from the engine.

Thanks for that, and it is understood. Question now is, will it be effective (enough) to put the insulation inside the bin? It really looks like there is not enough space to put it over the entire outside of the bin (particularly, the walls are the issue).

So, applying it inside would mean, the actual plastic material of the bin would warm up from conductive heat, but goods inside the bin, separated by the insulation, would not as much.

Not an ideal solution, but maybe the best feasible one. And applying insulation under the bottom (outside) of the bin would still make sense too, right?

Woo-hoot!... Modern Vespa cutdowns!
This is going to be cool

Although, I suspect the early experiments will NOT be on Windbreaker's gorgeous scooter

I'm still voting for 'screwed' unless you do something like quoted here. Unless you remove the heat from this space it's going to heat up to the same temp eventually. A hole in the front and a hole in the back with some airflow will do a mile better than insulation.

Get two thermometers, stick them in identical enclosures, insulate the snot out of one of them, stick them both in an oven at 350 for an hour, pull them out and read them simultaneously and they'll read the same temp. (if they were to record temp vs time the insulated one will show that it took longer to get up to temperature)

Hi, Windbreaker

Weren't you going to put wetsuit material under the space blanket material,
all afixed to the bottom of the pet carrier?

I think that this would address Silver Streak's concern about
the reflective material increasing heat flow to the pet carrier wall
and from there to the interior

And another possible angle here
Might there be room (inside the pet carrier) for one of those cold-packs
that people apply to bring the swelling down?

Interesting twist here, Mike. Ventilation should do something, I agree. However, I think we already have that. The engine room is not hermetically sealed to the bottom, and riding the scooter at a decent speed will cause air to become turbulent and get the upper engine room ventilated. If I am correct, all we are actually dealing with is radiation.

@ Linda: yes, I had planned to add neoprene to the bottom, but only the bottom, not the sides, of the bin's outside. The bottom will only be a small part of it's total surface, so that alone won't insulate well enough. But the solution might lie within the above thought.

I'll be going for a ride now and bring a thermometer or two.

The Great Stuff spray foam can be used, but you have to be real careful. There are a couple of kinds of the GS. There is one which expands with a lot of pressure, and there is one which exerts little pressure as it expands. You want the one which makes little pressure.

Next make a shape for the inside cavity of the container as you want it to look. Carve it from wood or make it up with cardboard and tape. Make it stout so it will resist the pressure of the forming foam. Lets say a box 4"x6"x6" just as an example. Wrap the box with whatever you want the inside of the box to be lined with, say velvet or an old blanket. Make it large so that there is a wide skirt left over all around. Then spray the GS in the bucket around the inserted form. Press down firmly on the form to keep it from being pushed out. When the action stops, pull the form out of the velvet wrap and you have an insulated container lined in velvet to your exact requirements.


You might want to put some thin polyethylene film between the velvet and the box to facilitate pulling the box out. You could also put polyethylene film inside the bucket as a liner so that you could remove the insulation from the pet carrier if need be. You might also want to practice on an old plastic bucket before you commit to the pet carrier.

Good Luck!

Re ventilation: Yes the scooter is open at the bottom but hot air rises and it has no where to escape. I appreciate that there'll be turbulance but it obviously doesn't have that much effect otherwise we wouldn't be having the discussion.

The simplest solution would be to cut a hole to let the air in but I certainly wouldn't volunteer my scoot for testing. Another option would be to have a small air scoop under the bike that vents into the top of the compartment. If air could then be ventilated out the back (perhaps under the rear of the seat) then I'd of thought this would cool things down.

To be honest I'd be happy if even the glove box was cool. As it is if I use any storage area provided for my sandwiches then they turn to toast after 30 mins.

I really think the bulk of the conductive heating occurs when the scooter is at rest, when the heated air inside the engine compartment is relatively undisturbed and rises to the top and accumulates. Forced venting/scoop schemes would likely only be effective when the scoot is moving. Vents near the top of the body, or even a small 12V fan could be effective, although with obvious disadvantages.

Linda, I think you may have misunderstood what I intended to say. I was simply trying to say that any reflective material need to be between the insulation and the engine, not vice versa.

There is no reason that the insulation could not be on the inside of the bucket, except for the penalty in storage space.

What about adding a small fan (similar to a computer fan or something) that is low voltage, about 2" around. maybe there would be space towards the rear of the seat to mount such a thing (in the seat pan itself?) and it could be wired so the fan is on when the engine is on... The vent hole could be a small opening in the rear of the seat with a cool looking grill on it or something...

Just a thought, I don't have the skills or time to do it, but seems like it could work if one were motivated enough.

Desi B.

Good idea primordialdancer i was looking at 12v pc cooling fans today! They have the ones with coloured leds in them bet the light from them would look cool at night ,might even shine down below scoot? Also you could cut a bit of polystyrene/styrofoam insulation that they use in walls to shape,sure it will cut down on storage, but handy if you need to transport heat-sensitve stuff. Must put a temp probe in mine to see what temp is.

As i have a KN cone filter on my scoot what if you cut the front of pet carrier just where it is moulded to cover the air intake under the front of seat @ hinge,then adapt the air intake to feed air into it? Or put the pipe from the intake thru a hole it the side/front? just a thought lol

111 degrees when I ce back from the ride. The thermometer showed
from 81 at start, to 103 at a check in between, to the 111 at the end.

It would be interesting to know the air temp in the engine room.

Now we know why the NO PETS decal lol thats hot i have a spare pet carrier will hav a bash at it on saturday

Emergency Blanket from big 5 or other store for less then 5 bucks may work. I have one or two and for kicks I'll do mine tonight. using foil tape.

On the previous post, I enclosed my picture of ice and beer. As hot as the carrier gets, the beer was cold. Could you put an ice pack at the bottom, then cover it with a blanket.

It might work. It might not. But it's cheap and easy.

How bout just using one of those small insullated fabric lunch bags and putting all the stuff you want protected from the heat in there. That should fit under the seat.

Too simple.

+1

That would be like cheating

(I'll consider it, though)