Modern Vespa

Hello fellow MP3 owners,

I am calling on you, because I need your help or support to hopefully settle a matter that I and a lot of you out there have been dealing with and one that is not acceptable. It is the famous steering notch, or the defective steering bearing syndrome. Here is my story.

In the spring of 2008 I purchased the MP3 400 here in Montreal Quebec Canada from Vespa Montreal. After a short while, not exactly sure how long, I noticed when I would turn the steering, while parking the bike, a slight vibration noise, I found it odd but disregarded it, because, it did not sound too bad and it did not happen often. I would say at about ¾'s the way through the season, next indication. For fun, I decided to try and steer the bike without my hands at a reasonable speed as to not fall over, by leaning to the left and right. I found that I would really have to lean out far in order to get it to react. I disregarded that as I thought it might have to do with having 2 wheels up front creating more resistance than a regular 2 wheeler. As time went by another indication happened. It was nearing the end of season and as I would iniciate a turn I found it would give resistance, but because of the wear on the front tires, I assumed that was the reason for this. The tires where at about 50% at the time. All of the above indications where not pronounced enough to have that notch like effect. In the new season of 2009 I had new tires put on the front. It was time to change them out and I had no real indication of what was really going wrong until I put on the new tires. It started, ever so slightly, getting that notch effect when trying to turn to the left or right. Again, I assumed it was the new tires I purchased, because the tires I purchased have fairly large lugs on them and they tend to have a center groove when rolling. So I thought maybe this is normal, again thinking 2 up front wheels with 2 grooves. It must be this. As time went on it became quite obvious that there was something really wrong. At slow speeds I'm talking stuck in traffic crawling speed, I was and still am, fighting with the steering to initiate a turn from center. So I start investigating here on the forums for the MP3 and the net and you guessed it, I start hearing from all of you out there that this looks like the #1 problem with all models on the MP3 and that all those whom distribute this product are well aware of it.

I approached my dealer service manager at Alex Berthiaume & Fils. They are the owners of Vespa Montreal. They service what is sold in their satellite store, Vespa Montreal. I told him my story and what I have heard on the forums. He was not too interested in what I had to say and you have to now how to talk to him, because he is not too user friendly. Well I do not know what type of an e-mail he sent to the distributor Canadian Scooter Corporation, but I was flat out denied coverage because I was just outside of warranty. About only a month and a half outside of warranty! So, I do not stop there, I approached Canadian Scooter Corporation and managed after a few attempts to get a hold of Angela Young, corporate communications for them. After again telling the story, she tells me I have a legitimate reason to claim warranty and that she will get back to me. Well I do not know what type of e-mail she sent to Piaggio USA to the attention of Mr. Erik Madsen a regional manager for Piaggio Group Americas Inc. Again I was denied. Here is what he had to say.

"This is one area we are watching, but since the MP3 has been brought to N America, we have sold less than 10 items of the bearings. The warranty claims for this repair count 2. We have heard of this and watch it on the forums as well, but the parts movement and the warranty claims do not support any campaign or change, or parts change.

Of the 6 dealers that have ordered this part number, 4 have done so as the result of an accident and the bearings were replaced as a matter of course. 3 of these dealers only replaced one side. Of the remaining dealers that have replaced these, no PDI sheets were available to confirm the setting and checking or the preload rings in accordance with the pre delivery guide. I did not count the one that you guys shipped in last year and provided replacements for the customer.

If the bearings are notchy, and the unit is under warranty, replace them as the dealer requests them. We will need to have each and every bearing back for engineering analysis. For the bearings that are notchy out of warranty, the customer will have to pay for the repair."

This was my response to that e-mail.

"Hello Angela,

Pardon the pun, but this is getting my engine revved up! I have paid $10,000 cdn dollars for what I assumed would be quality workmanship.

If I dissect this response from Piaggio Group Americas, what they are saying is that regardless of why the bearings were replaced on the MP3's that have been dealt with in the USA and even yours here in Canada, it is because PIAGGIO MFG in Italy or the dealers of PIAGGIO here in N America and Canada on the PDI did something wrong creating this problem with the bearings.

I and all those out there that are experiencing this problem with the steering bearings know that it is not an acceptable occurrence because of improper installation. The MP3 is by far mostly sold in Europe and the problem has been accepted and addressed there. Just because we do not have many cases her in America and Canada, does not excuse, PIAGGIO and or any other entity representing PIAGGIO, the responsibility of the repair of my scooter. It is just outside of warranty and has been experiencing this problem since almost the beginning when it was purchased, but have not found the true problem until now.

There was resistance in the steering early in the life of my MP3 and I assumed it was the characteristics because of the 2 wheels up front. As time went on the front tires had worn mostly in the center and this made me think why I was getting more resistance in initiating turns with the MP3. So, in this new season of riding I decided to change the front tires. The tires that I purchased for scooters are from Schwable and are called WEATHER MAN. They have large lugs and thus tend to have a center groove. This made me think that this is why I am now getting an even more pronounced sticking to center response from the steering of the MP3. Now I, at this point, am fighting with the steering at low speeds to initiate a turn from straight line. It is also shaking at speeds 90kmh to 110kmh. This could be just poor balancing of the tires, I think?

We the consumer have taken a risk purchasing this new technology from the preliminary information, assessments and reviews of this new product brought to market, witch where positive, thus why we took that chance. Now as time has past and the true users have used this product, the truth is coming out. Now it is in your and Piaggio's hands to uphold these first assessment and reviews and take responsibility for its short comings.

I have been in the past a product tester for different technical products on the market today and it is my positive input that has helped keep them there. It would be my pleasure to assist the improvement of this product.

As I mentioned in our phone conversation Angela, I hope you will work with me on this issue and that you will pass this on to the right people to help expand this overall good product to market here in America and Canada. Please take into account that I am out there on this machine almost every day, all day and am constantly questioned.

I will be forwarding a copy of this e-mail to Piaggio Group Americas to customercare@piggiousa.com to the attention of Erik Madsen.

Thank you for your co-operation.

Philip Merleau"

I have yet to receive any response. So I decided to get more aggressive and left a voice message to Angela Young as well as an e-mail, that if I did not get a response within 48 hours I will proceed with legal action. I was still ignored.


This brings me to my--- and quite possibly your or your futures dilemma.

I would greatly appreciate your help and support fellow MP3 owners out there, by sending e-mails and or voice massages to these ambassadors of PIAGGIO MP3.

Angela Young Canadian Scooter Corp.
Corporate Communications
T 416.537.3001 x228
F 416.537.3003
ayoung@vespacanada.com

45 Esandar Drive, Unit 1, Toronto, Ontario M4G 4C5

Piaggio USA
Go to: http://www.piaggiousa.com/contact.php
Send your message to customer care.

FELLOW MP3 OWNERS, TOGETHER WE STAND DEVIDED WE FALL!


I thank you all

Philip Merleau

Links to some of my other posts on the subject (you may have to register):

http://tscoot.co.uk/boards/index.php?topic=5159.msg66928#msg66928

http://mp3scooterclub.co.uk/cgi-bin/topic_show.pl?pid=6393;hl=notch

http://tscoot.co.uk/boards/index.php?topic=5406.msg70972#msg70972

Note that the workshop manual has incorrect assembly instructions - we do not know what the factory assembly instructions are. Every dealer in the UK has had to replace the steering bearings on higher-mileage MP3s.

Hi jimc
It has been your input on this matter that has made me the most fired up to go after the Piaggio people. I hope you will voice your disapproval on the links I've provided.

I did try to connect to the links you have sent me, I signed up and am still trying to access. Looking forward.

Thank you jimc
montrealon3

Reading your original post I can't help thinking you should have had this attended to far sooner - and then I doubt there'd have been any quibble under warranty. Steering bearings go at some stage on every bike - it's a standard thing to be checked at service time and annual road-worthiness tests. Normally the rider can tell they are on the way out long before the effect gets so severe as to be dangerous.

As Jim said, this may be an expensive lesson learned.

When it comes to warranty, it hurts you to assume anything. If there is something that doesn't feel right on the bike, get it checked out as soon as you notice the problem. While I completely disagree with their reaction (the steering bearings are a much publicised problem in Europe), they are well within their rights to refuse a warranty repair as your warranty no longer covers the bearings.

Have you had the fact confirmed that it is defintely the bearings? I know of 3 other MP3's that catch the plastic lips on top of the cooling fan tunnel (between the two front wheels) that exhibit very similar characteristics to notchy head bearings. Basically, the bottom of the steering column catches on these flaps while turning from center, and you can hear a definite 'knocking' noise.

What I would recommend is that you check for the above problem. Leave the bike on the tilt lock (preferably on a slight incline, nose down, so as to put a bit more weight on the front) and look under the front while moving the bars from left to right. If you can hear the notching noise, track up to where the steering column terminates, just above the central tunnel. This can be fixed by simply cutting down the plastic flaps in this area so that the steering column has enough clearance.

I hope you get your issues sorted however, but I wouldn't hold your breath when it comes to warranty repair unfortunately.

Well, if it was a hollow threat, why should they take notice???

Just start the legal action...you surely have enough evidence to make a threat like that...

All the best

Trevor G

PS Sometimes it is just not worth being a crusader. Better to pay the bill, get your ride back on the road, and blow some cobwebs out with a good fang.

The plastic-flap problem doesn't occur in the dead-ahead position though, which is the only position the notch will normally be felt while riding.

It wasn't far off - maybe a couple of degrees play each way, the resistance was really apparent and felt identical to when the bearings went on my X8. But true, not really apparent when going straight on.

As Trevor said, it may well be worth just swallowing the cost. Shouldn't cost more than $50-$75 to put right, surely? It doesn't seem worth the effort for such an amount.

The best time I've heard the bearings can be replaced in is 3 hours, working flat out. That's what my local mechanic told me - who has done loads of these now. The first time it took him all day - over 8 hours. Not to mention the odd tool that might have to be made up. So there's that labour cost plus the cost of the bearings, plus the hydraulic fluid. Out of warranty you'd be lucky to be charged less than GBP300. And that's not replacing the centre steering-arm bearings, which never normally need to be changed (though they come in the kit).

It's also taken Piaggio a long time to agree that it takes more than an hour and a half to do the job - so some dealers were reportedly baulking at the task.

Wow - I didn't realise the job was so involved. Thanks for the info Jim, I'm not looking forward to this ever happening on mine as my warranty expires soon Almost makes you want it to happen before your warranty expires.

It's certainly not a job I'd relish doing myself. I've happily done X9 bearings - but these are much more long-winded to do.

It's the bearing or bearings. Jacked it up and with a slight tuch to the left or right to pull it out of THE NOTCH, the handlebars come bouncing back to center.

If you can solidly feel it with the front jacked up these have seriously gone! The last set I had replaced, you could only feel it with the full weight of the scoot bearing down and checking it with the bike rolling forwards. If it's only *slightly* there, they need to be done.

Just had mine done out of warranty. Piaggio paid for the bearings even though they really didn't have to, but it cost me $900.00 for labor.

Good lord - thats a tad on the expensive side...

I've come to the conclusion that the Mp3 is an expensive scooter to keep on the road....steering bearings notwithstanding.

Typical rates here are $90.00 per hour--so ten hours is probably not out of line for someone who has not done them before.
I could cough up the money, but what is the odds a first timer will get the job right? Will it need redoing in another 6000 miles? Thats the part that makes me think seriously of selling mine ( both of them).

The fact that the factory calls for a drive belt every 6K seems a little ridiculous for a super-scooter of it's ilk to me...coupled with the rear tire consumption, and other maintenance schedules you may as well ride a Ducati! LOL

If the shop always charges the exact time taken for every job, that's a tad unfair on the first example of any particular (well documented elsewhere) problem that they personally meet. I'd suggest six hours charged for the first time for the steering bearings would be very fair (it could well take double that, with frantic research etc). So in US money at USD90ph a total charge of around USD800 would not seem over the top to me.

I do hope before just telling them 'this is the problem - fix it' everyone tells the mechanics - engineers I would prefer for the good ones - about the knowledge already gained. 110 degree back-off and all that. I went through a few months being that UK guinea-pig, I'd hate to see it wasted.

The bearings seem a bit "under-sized" given the stress and weight of that machine, but "110 degree back-off"? Is that part of the remedy?

It is the remedy FFS. With X9s it took seemingly years to get Piaggio to realise those ones needed a 90degree back-off. Now it's in the manual.

I've done the write-ups. Piaggio has the info. If dealers just don't know then *either* they aren't gleaning every bit of info they can from the dealer network *or* in certain areas Piaggio haven't disseminated the received wisdom gained by experience elsewhere. Pooh-bah if that is the case.

All I can say is that *if* a mechanic replaces the steering bearings according to Piaggio's manual those bearings will be toast and dangerous within 300 miles. BTDTGTTS. End-of.

Do it with 110degree back-off (plus tests and readjustments if necessary) and here they have lasted over 13,000 miles, with no hint (and I'm *very* sensitive to it) of the 'notch' re-appearing.

Sorry to hear you are having problems however I don't think there will be many to actually jump on this with you from my history with this bike. Fair question for you would be was the bike ever dropped?

We have only ever replaced one and it was an accident bike, of the other 100+ MP3's we have sold and the tens of thousands of miles they have been ridden we have never seen one problem, one fault, one warranty claim.

Best,
SDG
VTO
VSO

As far as replacement and fixing of the problem goes, if it does come up, I expect to tell the mechanics that since I am paying for it I want it done ala JimC's direction. Then cross my fingers and hope for the best.

There seems some uncertainty and worry expressed in this thread.

The X9's had a problem that speculation suggested might be a temperature differential between inner and outer bearing tubes - we worked out that the the fine angle of the locking-ring threads and the tolerances of manufacture made a remarkable difference between 'cold' and after torqued 'per spec' hot pressures on the tapered bearing rollers. A matter of:

Hot outer tube (near radiator)
Cold inner tube (ambient air).

We reckoned a 3C difference could make brinelling inevitable. 90degree back-off cured it on assembly of the bearings. Documented by Piaggio.

Enter the Fuoco. (and other MP3s)

The manual (just as the original X9 one did, sigh) gave a preload of the lower locking ring *with no backoff*.
Plain daft.
The threads aren't that finely made, start locking down on that and the top of the ring thread against the inner is now pushed a little way downwards - the lack of tolerance. Add to that that in the Fuoco on a 'hot ride' the outer sleeve is now 4C above the temperature of the inner steering tube - case solved.

Bingo - any bearing in that situation with any pre-load whatsoever will grind themselves to dust if unattended.

Answer - add some grease to stop exotic particles entering (the minimal grease originally applied is in fact just fine if you ignore that factor) but FFS make sure the bearings are slackened off, tightened to hand-tight, then backed off by 110 degrees, locked off *and then checked*.
They might be too slack - though actually this is far less of a safety issue than being too tight.

The X9 90 degrees isn't enough on the Fuoco (and MP3s) - the temperature differences that I have measured are a degree or two (C remember) higher. It has to be over 100 degrees of backoff at least - 110 to start with seems just fine. Any good workshop has a device for measuring this very exactly.

No it has not been dropped or anything of the kind. Study the subject on the forums. Things may have gone well for your customers so far but that could change. There are too many out there with this problem to ignore this. Piaggio made a mistake and should fix it.

[quote="montrealon3"][quote="SDG"] I study the 100+ we have sold and stay aware of any warranty oddities in the USA and the MP3 has been flawless by those accounts.

I can't beleve everything I read on the internet. Not the technical stuff.

Best,
SDG