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I feel bad starting a new thread, seems there are a lot of P200E problems of late. But I didn't want to hijack a thread, by the same token.

First, the electrical:
I've been trying to get my damn turn signals to work. I've got a new 5-pole regulator on my battery U.S. P200E, so that shouldn't be it. Today I checked the fuse off to the side running into the positive terminal of the battery, and discovered it was blown. I THINK this means battery is not getting charged, and there is no power out to the turn signals. Is that correct? Or is this a separate problem from my signal gremlin?

Either way, I need to replace it. Can I find this at an autoparts store or is this a job for ScootersO?


Second, the mechanical:
I've noticed a very rare slippage of the kickstart when firing it up, but today when I kicked it over the start popped down a peg or two. I probably won't be able to start it cold again at the level it is at now... won't get much travel. This probably means my kickstart gear's got some chipped or rounded teeth on it, and needs replacing. Should I go all the way in for the cruciform when doing this repair, or is that a lot of extra work considering it still shifts for me? I've got 7,800 miles on it, and based on the cables and kickstart gear I don't think it's been pulled apart much over the ages.

Thanks for the advice!
Blown fuse
Blown fuse
⚠️ Last edited by xantufrog on UTC; edited 2 times
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I was blowing a lot of headlights and fuses after I put my P back together in January. I think my problem was caused by a short in the headset, but my headlight was also wired up funny because the wiring harness is for a later P200E and the headlight was for a PX200.

Anyway, check all your terminals, tape up any wires that look worn, keep a huge pile of fuses on hand, and keep asking smarter people than myself.
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Thanks gravyhand. I have no idea if the fuse thing is a repeat problem or if it was just time for the old gal to go (it looks old and corroded).
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Replace the fuse, you can buy spares cheaply at any autoparts store. 8amp, the white plastic ones like the one you pulled out. Keep the rest of the pack in the bike.

If the fuse keeps busting, it's probably due to a short circuit somewhere. Check all the wiring you can get at, including the junction boxes to make sure nothing's connecting or grounding where it shouldn't be. Check the connections to switches, etc as well. Clean contacts w/ WD-40 if they look gunky, tape up any breaks in the insulation after examining the exposed wire for corrosion.

The bike will run without the fuse, but horn and turn signals won't work, and the tail light will flicker with engine revs rather than steady glow.

If you don't know the history of the engine's innards and you're already planning on splitting the cases to check the kick gear, I would replace the cruciform while you're at it, as well as seals, bearings, etc. Some may disagree, but I feel that until you've made the engine as new as possible after buying a used bike, you don't know what's lurking in there.
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Re: turn signals.

Try replacing the flasher relay. You can pick one up at Kragen's for $3.
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Re: More P200E maintenance fun! -electrical and engine help?
xantufrog wrote:
First, the electrical:
I've been trying to get my damn turn signals to work. I've got a new 5-pole regulator on my battery U.S. P200E, so that shouldn't be it. Today I checked the fuse off to the side running into the positive terminal of the battery, and discovered it was blown. I THINK this means battery is not getting charged, and there is no power out to the turn signals. Is that correct? Or is this a separate problem from my signal gremlin?

Either way, I need to replace it. Can I find this at an autoparts store or is this a job for ScootersO?
- You should be able to just replace the fuse. The white ones like you have seem to be the ones that last the longest for me.
- I don't THINK the battery actually gets charged from the scoot, but I may be wrong. I thought you just needed to charge the battery occasionally to keep it topped off.
- Autoparts stores will have them
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Re: More P200E maintenance fun! -electrical and engine help?
oldstlraver wrote:
- I don't THINK the battery actually gets charged from the scoot, but I may be wrong. I thought you just needed to charge the battery occasionally to keep it topped off.
This is incorrect.

The battery DOES get charged off the scoot. The rectifier converts the AC voltage from the stator into DC so that it can recharge it. It's meant to be a self-sufficient system, but sometimes the rectifier gets dodgy and for whatever reason the drain on the battery happens faster than the bike can recharge it.

That's why you have to put it on a trickle charger. If this is happening regularly, you probably have a bad rectifier, because it SHOULD be recharging the battery for you. ( assuming you have no blown fuses and your wiring is all good )
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PSFT wrote:
Re: turn signals.

Try replacing the flasher relay. You can pick one up at Kragen's for $3.
hey psft,

did'nt i just meet you at scoot invasion
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Re: More P200E maintenance fun! -electrical and engine help?
[quote="Rover Eric"
The battery DOES get charged off the scoot. The rectifier converts the AC voltage from the stator into DC so that it can recharge it. It's meant to be a self-sufficient system, but sometimes the rectifier gets dodgy and for whatever reason the drain on the battery happens faster than the bike can recharge it.
[/quote]

And the turn signals run off the battery, right? So if the fuse from the positive terminal of the battery is blown then with or without a battery I wouldn't get any signals,

Any thoughts on the mechanical stuff as well? Time for an engine overhaul before I can actually ride my home-remade P?
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If the turn signals are HOOKED UP properly, and your rectifier works, and your flasher relay works ... then you should still get some very faint flashing of the turn signals as long as the engine is running.

I'm basing this off of my electrical work on a '74 super this weekend, with turn signals. It may be different on a P-series, because they have a different rectifier and a 12v system ... but i'm pretty sure it should be the same. Even without the battery... you should get some MINOR amount of blinking if the other parts are all there and functional.


( correct me if i'm wrong, p-series electrical experts )
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Rover Eric wrote:
If the turn signals are HOOKED UP properly, and your rectifier works, and your flasher relay works ... then you should still get some very faint flashing of the turn signals even if the engine is off.

I'm basing this off of my electrical work on a '74 super this weekend, with turn signals. It may be different on a P-series, because they have a different rectifier and a 12v system ... but i'm pretty sure it should be the same. Even without the battery... you should get some MINOR amount of blinking if the other parts are all there and functional.


( correct me if i'm wrong, p-series electrical experts )
DAMN. I probably need a new flasher unit then, 'cause I get nothing with a shiny new regulator. My hope had been that since the fuse connects the positive of the battery out to the rest of the system it meant a no-go for anything which runs off the battery.
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Check my edited post. I wasn't thinking and wrote "if the engine is off" and i meant "if the engine is running"

Hopefully you knew that's what i meant.

At that point, the flashers are driven by some really weak DC current directly out of the rectifier... but they need the battery to boost that to make them really visible.

On a 74 US electrical system, it's really pathetic. The turn signals take a few seconds to warm up ... presumably building enough current to operate the flasher relay.

It can only be described by the word "anemic".
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Rover Eric wrote:
Check my edited post. I wasn't thinking and wrote "if the engine is off" and i meant "if the engine is running"

Hopefully you knew that's what i meant.

At that point, the flashers are driven by some really weak DC current directly out of the rectifier... but they need the battery to boost that to make them really visible.

On a 74 US electrical system, it's really pathetic. The turn signals take a few seconds to warm up ... presumably building enough current to operate the flasher relay.

It can only be described by the word "anemic".
Yeah I figured that was what you meant

This is what vespamaintenance says about the system that made me think it ran directly off the battery:
"When the handlebar switch is operated, a path to ground opens up for the capacitor, C1, indside the flasher relay. The DC voltage enters C1 and the capacitor begins to take in a charge. As soon as it charges to a certain voltage, it energizes the relay coil and the switch moves to the second position. in this second position, the battery is connected directly to the turn signal and the light turns on. However, C1's charging circuit has been disrupted, so it will begin to discharge. When it falls to a specific voltage, it will no longer hold the relay coil and the switch will click back to the starting position."

Looking at this wiring diagram, however, I don't see any direct connection between the positive of the battery and the flasher relay.
http://www.scooterhelp.com/electrics/wiring/VSX1T.USA.after.pdf

I am not great at wiring diagrams, but it looks to me like the positive from the battery hits the stator, which in turn goes to the regulator. So I imagine what you say is true, that the stator could give a weak signal to the lines of the regulator which go to the flasher unit on its own. In other words, my blown fuse could be cutting the battery off from that line to the flasher unit, but the stator still runs there in some capacity either way (and consequently, the blown fuse is probably not my whole problem ).

Since I won't be able to get the scoot started again until i fix the kickstart, is there some way to independently test the flasher unit?
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xantufrog wrote:
Since I won't be able to get the scoot started again until i fix the kickstart, is there some way to independently test the flasher unit?[/url]
Good question. If you happened to have a 12 battery charger... like a battery tender or something, you could hook it up to the flasher relay ...then measure the VDC from the pole that runs to the turn signals...putting the red lead on your multimeter to that tab, and the black lead to ground. You should see it go back and forth between 12vdc and 0, and the current go between 0 and some small amount as well. ( couple amps, maybe? )
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Rover Eric wrote:
If you happened to have a 12 battery charger... like a battery tender or something, you could hook it up to the flasher relay ...then measure the VDC from the pole that runs to the turn signals...putting the red lead on your multimeter to that tab, and the black lead to ground. You should see it go back and forth between 12vdc and 0, and the current go between 0 and some small amount as well. ( couple amps, maybe? )
Excellent, thanks Eric! Looking at the diagram below, it looks like poles P and L are both hot out of the flasher, which seems weird given the color scheme, but I see no other source of power to the actual flasher bulbs themselves save through the black dotted line from pole L. Obviously I would hook the hot lead from the battery tender to the central contact on the flasher unit, but the negative lead? I think since it needs to be downstream of the unit itself I need to hook the negative of the battery tender to the black wire of my voltmeter?
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Turn signals and horn run off the battery. Tail light does as well, but will run on current going through the rectifier only if the battery is dead or fuse is blown.

Last summer I had an intermittent short that would blow fuses every time I rode for more than a couple miles, didn't find it until this spring when one of the headlight wires disconnected completely from the handlebar switch.

Anyway, when the fuse was blown, headlight and tail ran on juice from the stator, meaning they flickered at low revs. Still rideable, no prob.

With a good fuse and solid wiring (no shorts/breaks) and a charged battery, the tail light, turn signals and horn should work even if the engine isn't running, as long as the ignition switch is on. With a dead battery (or even really weak charge) turn signals and horn won't work even with the engine running.

To illustrate this: A couple weeks ago I left my ignition switch on while doing some work on the bike and ran the battery down. To be fair, it probably had a low charge through sitting in a friend's garage through this year's icetastic winter. Anyway, tail light was super weak until I turned the engine on, then flickering a little, turn signals/horn didn't work. Rode a couple miles, stator charged the battery a bit, tail light was brighter, turn signals would work a little bit - but dim the tail light when they activated. Rode some more miles, turn signals were working normally, but if they were left on too long at a long light, would start to drain the battery. Dead battery won't cause the fuse to bust, though.

Once you've replaced the fuse and checked your wiring, check the fluid level in your battery and top it off with distilled water if it's low. Put it on the battery tender to make sure it has a full charge, especially if you top it off.

If, after you do that, the horn works but the turn signals don't, replace the switcher unit by the battery. If the horn AND turn signals don't work, there's something fishy in your wiring setup.
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in agreement with the above post, i'm more likely to believe your problem is your rectifier than your flasher relay.

you know when your flasher relay is dead, because often the turn signal lights come on and stay on, versus flashing.
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Rover Eric wrote:
in agreement with the above post, i'm more likely to believe your problem is your rectifier than your flasher relay.

you know when your flasher relay is dead, because often the turn signal lights come on and stay on, versus flashing.
But it's a brand new regulator from scooters o... you walked me through testing the old one in the fall and I found it to be bad. I've only started the scoot twice since installing it, and the signals didn't work even on the first try. I suppose it could be a dud still?
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hmmm... ( sorry, i have trouble remembering everyone's troubleshooting history )

you sure you hooked it up right? All the colors / wires the same and all? Sure that it's casing is grounding to the frame properly? ( check resistance between rectifier housing and frame with multimeter )
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Rover Eric wrote:
hmmm... ( sorry, i have trouble remembering everyone's troubleshooting history )
But it's me! I thought I was special Crying or Very sad emoticon

I'll test those things in an hour or so, as well as check out the flasher unit and post back
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Hey Jimmy!

What's up man. Yeah, met you at the rally. Fun ride and good company.

Found this on youtube. Someone was videoing from the Venice vintage motorcycle show. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU7rqq-dX84

3:51

Cheers,
Tam
jimmyb865 wrote:
PSFT wrote:
Re: turn signals.

Try replacing the flasher relay. You can pick one up at Kragen's for $3.
hey psft,

did'nt i just meet you at scoot invasion
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Ok, so I get nothing hooking my battery tender Jr up to the flasher unit as follows: Red charger lead to Pole X, red meter lead to L or P, black charger lead to black meter lead.

But, I should note that the meter read nothing when hooked directly to the tender, as well, making me wonder if the battery tender has a circuit which puts out no voltage unless a battery is in place.

The regulator had a good ground. I tested conductance between all the poles of the regulator and only got conductance between the two A poles. Should there be conductance between the B+ pole and one of these other poles?
Here's the flasher unit. It says it needs a 14A fuse?
Here's the flasher unit. It says it needs a 14A fuse?
Here's the regulator as it was plugged in, and the resistances are drawn on. I was surprised to see there wasn't any conductance between one of the power in poles (A or G) and the B+ which is the "out" to the flasher unit. Is this wrong?
Here's the regulator as it was plugged in, and the resistances are drawn on. I was surprised to see there wasn't any conductance between one of the power in poles (A or G) and the B+ which is the "out" to the flasher unit. Is this wrong?
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With regard to "why no conductance between the various poles?"... all i can say is that inside there is an array of capacitors and diodes. Capacitors may or may not be polar, and diodes are CERTAINLY polar. ...meaning that they act somewhat as a 1-way gate, and will let electricity through one way but not another. So, tesing continuity across poles isn't going to yield anything usable. I DO remember there being some way to test an OLD rectifier by measuring the ohms resistance between certain poles, though. Not sure if it holes true on new ones, or what those results could be.

It was in all the old vespa factory workshop manuals... how to measure to see if you needed a new one or not.

As i said earlier, i don't think it's your flasher relay ..and short of putting them into a known working circuit and seeing if the bulbs flash, i don't know a procedure to test them. It was just a thought that if you hooked it up to a battery you might be able to generate an opening and closing of the circuit on one of the other poles.
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Rover Eric wrote:
As i said earlier, i don't think it's your flasher relay ..and short of putting them into a known working circuit and seeing if the bulbs flash, i don't know a procedure to test them. It was just a thought that if you hooked it up to a battery you might be able to generate an opening and closing of the circuit on one of the other poles.
It was a good thought! Hell my battery tender might be toast. This blows because I have so many possible sources of error in these tests. I need a working scoot, as you say, and to try out my flasher, regulator, etc in it to see if it affects the function of the signals. Anyone want to ride over?
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before you go thinking all flasher relays are created equal... there's 2 pole and 3 pole ones, i believe. Older bikes used 2 pole ones.
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Rover Eric wrote:
before you go thinking all flasher relays are created equal... there's 2 pole and 3 pole ones, i believe. Older bikes used 2 pole ones.
Okay! So, I've got what I am pretty sure is a good regulator, and it seems to be well grounded. Flasher unit may or may not be good, but I can't seem to test it with my charger unit. I know I have a blown fuse out from the battery, but that shouldn't cause a complete lack of flasher function.

What would be your suggestion on where to go next? I don't see any overtly bad connections anywhere, or exposed wires where there shouldn't be.

Thanks for all the help!
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change the fuse first.. then we'll go from there.
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Rover Eric wrote:
change the fuse first.. then we'll go from there.
Can do! ~though I might not be able to start it with the kickstart sitting so low. We'll have to see. If not, this project will go on hold for after my great engine rebuild adventure!
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xantufrog wrote:
Rover Eric wrote:
change the fuse first.. then we'll go from there.
Can do! ~though I might not be able to start it with the kickstart sitting so low. We'll have to see. If not, this project will go on hold for after my great engine rebuild adventure!
Can you take it off the stand and lean it away from the engine side? That might give you a little more clearance for the kickstart, at least to run the engine while you work on your lights.
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xantufrog wrote:
Rover Eric wrote:
change the fuse first.. then we'll go from there.
Can do! ~though I might not be able to start it with the kickstart sitting so low. We'll have to see. If not, this project will go on hold for after my great engine rebuild adventure!
Bump start it!
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Posts: 153
Location: Chicago
 
Hooked
@eldorado avatar
1980 Vespa P200E, 1981 Serveta Jet 200, 1982 BMW R100, 2003 BMW F650GS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 153
Location: Chicago
UTC quote
Change the fuse. Charge the battery, or verify that it's charged (Battery tender will tell you if it's got 80% charge or less). Hook up everything. Turn on ignition switch.

Check horn. If horn goes, you know battery/electrical/fuse connection okay. Check turn signals if horn works okay. If they don't work, switch in a new flasher unit. Mine was 3-pole, I think. When mine went bad, turn signals wouldn't work period, I did not experience them staying on. You shouldn't need 14A, the bike is designed to run with the 8A fuse. It's more likely that the signal unit won't tolerate greater than 14A of current, but will work on less.

I would still check all your wiring connections to make sure there's no short causing you to blow fuses. If that's happening, your turn signals won't work regardless of your regulator, signal switch, etc. I also doubt it's your regulator if it's new, plugged in correctly, and grounded (should be grounded through that upper screw, that's what's grounding the battery).

You can ride w/o turn signals and use hand signals, esp if you're further out of the city where people don't tailgate too much. Old bikes didn't have them, or owners took them off. I like to have a good horn to warn unaware drivers I'm there, though.
OP
@xantufrog avatar
UTC

Moderibbit
1980 P200E - "Old Rusty", 1976 ET3 Primavera
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8891
Location: Atlanta, GA
 
Moderibbit
@xantufrog avatar
1980 P200E - "Old Rusty", 1976 ET3 Primavera
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8891
Location: Atlanta, GA
UTC quote
So many wise words, this is why I love this place.

I've decided I'm going to focus on getting the engine dropped, split, and rebuilt, then return to this, because I ain't going nowhere without a reliable kickstart. Oil smelled a little gassy, too, so I think I'll need new seals.

But we will return to this soon!

(oh JOY, you say Razz emoticon )
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