Modern Vespa

I've posted bits and pieces of this subject around the MP3 forum, and I thought I'd consolidate everything into one thread.

While the MP3/250 and /400 have a number of windscreen choices, the 500 is thus far rather limited. I tried the GIVI medium (Figure 1) but was uniformly unsatisfied; first, because its height was inadequate, and secondly, because of the wind coming around it. I installed a Laminar Lip across the top, which eliminated wind across the top, but not the sides. The GIVI is, IMHO, designed more for looks than wind protection; its narrow profile means wind pours around both sides and collapses directly in front of me, resulting in terrible buffeting. I have read rave reviews of GIVI sheilds on this forum, some of which claim that the GIVI blocks too MUCH wind. Perhaps that's true of the 250/400 models, or maybe the reviewers weren't out on the highway - anything over 60mph and I could not help but be violently buffeted (I will say that with the LIP, riding up to 55mph was quite comfortable). In any event, let's just say that I could not get it to work for me.

Also, I could only find the GIVI in medium smoke, and the LIP was really dark, Foster Grant dark. But I'd put up with it if they kept the wind off. I even considered extra LIPs (the company makes vertical "ears") but they'd never fit the GIVI screen due to excessive curve.

I had a Rifle shield from my Honda Shadow available (Fig. 2), and decided to give it a try. Here's how I did it.

The first problem is that the only lower connection point on the MP3 is dead center. The cruiser windshield has, as you can see, a great big headlight cutout hole right where it needs to connect to the MP3's fairing. As some of you know, I tried to find anybody who sells just a blank windscreen (i.e. a big "egg" that hasn't had the cutout for a motorcycle headlight made yet). The only company I could find that sells them - and I tried a lot, including most if not all of the customer plexiglas web sites - was a Chinese wholesaler of plexiglas blanks. But I had to order a minimum of 10,000 of them. So, how to use the existing Rifle?

Looking at Fig. 2, you'll see that the headlight cutout has screws attaching the vertical bands on either side. So, I removed all the hardware, and remounted the horizontal strips (one in front, one behind the plexiglas) along the bottom, bisecting the headlight cutout. This meant I had to drill an extra pair of holes in the bottom outboard corners to pass the outside screws through.

The rest of the holes I plugged with 3/8" plastic plugs. As it turned out, they rattle quite a bit at speed so I glued them in place with loctite (I would have prefered rubber plugs but couldn't find any).

I then drilled two new holes to transfer the GIVI bolt flanges and grommets to, then bent the GIVI arms ("stalks") to match. That turned out to be quite complicated; I did not anticipate how difficult it would be to bend them both the exact same amount and without damaging them. Moreover, because I had already drilled the holes in the windshield for them to match up with, I had to bend the arms just the right amount to match the holes, which meant bending them while mounted on the trike. This is extremely difficult, both to get them bent equally and more importantly not to damage anything (like ripping out the speed nuts at their base). I used a deep-socket wrench on the top and a pipe wrench on the bottom of the arm, which then imparted deep scratches even though I wrapped everything with plumbing tape (in the pictures below, they've been sanded down and repainted) The right way to do this, in hindsight, is to remove them, mount them in a vise, bend them with a pipe just slightly larger than the arm OD, and make a paper cutout of the angle of one to use as a guide to match the second one to...and THEN drill the holes in the windshield to match!

The reason all this bending was needed is because a cruiser windshield has a relatively mild rake, while the GIVI is angled very sharply (which I guess in Italy means, very stylish). Ideally the windshield should sit at about 10-15 degrees from vertical. This means that the windshield will no longer be parallel to the GIVI bracket hidden under the front fairing, and so the mounting screw will not line up (see Fig. 4). The solution to this was to take that square "U" bracket that GIVI provides to mount under the fairing (which connects to a frame screw on either side) and bend it so that it was now facing more horizontal (note that the external GIVI bracket, that takes the one through hole and branches out to two small arms that attach to the GIVI shield on either side of the logo, is not used at all in this installation). That fixed the "parallel" issue, but it introduced a new problem of geometry, in that the screw hole of the hidden GIVI bracket is now physically lower than the through hole in the fairing. I had to drill another hole slightly below the original, as shown in Fig. 5. Now the screw - which is a considerably longer 6mm stainless button head than the original GIVI, since there's lots more things for it to pass through - lines up perfectly. I put rubber washers between the front and back horizontal straps to keep them spaced, and behind to absorb vibration.

By now, I had removed and remounted the various screens so many times that the internal threads of the GIVI "T" brackets - which are only plastic - had started to strip. This is frankly a weak and poorly engineered aspect of the GIVI screen and hardware. I drilled a hole clear through the "stalks" and threaded them 10-24, going slowly, using lots of oil, and backing the tap out often to clean out metal filings. I was hesitant to use 10-24, a thin screw, but was even more afraid of drilling a substantial screw hole like 6mm or 1/4-20 and missing dead center and ending with half-a-hole. The 10-24 gave me a little leeway on drilling accuracy and, it turned out, is far more than strong enough for the applicaiton.

The result is that the mounting screws (2.25" x 10-24 stainless) now screw through the windshield via the GIVI grommets and then directly into the arms themselves. I then backed them with stainless steel nylocks to make sure they never loosen; see Fig. 6.

I was ready for a test drive!

This blocks a LOT of wind. The total effect is like driving in a car with the windows all down. No lifting of my helmet. I tried driving with and without the headlight cutout hole blocked and it made very little difference. After each test run, I kept bending the GIVI mounting arms more and more vertical to block more wind, and doing so made the top of the screen creep higher until it ws threatening to block my view. That's another thing I did not consider, how much higher the shield will be once you set it at a cruiser-like angle (practically vertical compared to the original GIVI screen). If I had started with a truely "blank" replacement screen instead of swiping one off another bike (which of course already had holes drilled in it), the thing to do would have been to get the angle set up first, and then drill holes so that the height would be where I wanted it. Fortunately, I discovered Awareness's simple seat-raising mod <https://modernvespa.com/forum/topic47857?highlight=> that put my seat up, and my eye level over the cruiser screen, exactly where I wanted them.

So as far as my original design criteria were concerned, total success. Also, even with essentially a transparent highway billboard in front of me, gas mileage increase 2mpg to 55mpg (my guess as to why: buffeting, like heat, wastes energy and that energy must come from somewhere. I have noticed, however, that Harley owners are not pleased when I explain that loud pipes mean lost power).

But a new problem had crept in. Passing 60mph and increasing in intensity, the trike was now "hesitating" as if the engine was coughing or sporatically surging and then decelerating. This wasn't something gradual but happening many times a second. Very disconcerting and frankly tiring to experience. Here's what was happening: air hits the screen, which is relatively vertical. Depending on the relative wind, which is somewhat a result of which way the actual wind is blowing and considerably more a result of which direction the trike is heading, more air blows off one side of the shield than the other. The shallow rake means the shield is not cutting through the air like the sharp bow of a sailboat, so a slight change in the relative wind direction causes the air to suddenly shift to blowing mostly off the other side. I figured this out when I was struck by its similarity to a sailboat "coming about" and the wind suddenly stops being on one side of the sail and switches to the other. Except happening several times every second!

I don't know why I've never experienced this before. I've had plenty of motorcycles, most of which have had windshields, most of which have had less power than the 500. I do note that this is my first motorcycle with a fairing (deflecting wind onto the screen?), and the first time I've attached a windshield directly to the body rather than to the handlebars or forks (which makes the windshield face into the direction of the turn?). Or maybe it's something else I haven't thought of.

Another unexpected issue is that the bottom of the shield banged into the fairing. There was about a quarter-inch of clearance between the extreme bottom corners of the windshield and the black plastic tupperware immediately below (see Fig. 3 above). To my suprise, every time I hit a sizeable bump that gap closed instantly to zero with a loud thud. I fixed this by sawing off the sections of plexiglas that extend below the horizontal strips and sanding smooth (see Fig. 7). That of course eliminated any possibility of contact; if I move the screen back to the Shadow I don't think anyone would even notice the missing section; and frankly I think it looks better.

Meanwhile, my Garmin Zumo died and I replaced it with a Tom Tom using BubbaJon's simple mounting idea (<https://modernvespa.com/forum/topic35060?highlight=nuvi>). That required me to remove the flyscreen, and the easiest way to do this is to remove the screws at the base of the GIVI mounts, loosen the center screw in the middle of the horizontal strap, and pivot the entire windshield assembly over. After successfully mounting the Tom Tom (<https://modernvespa.com/forum/topic48156?postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40>) I swung the shield back up and screwed it back into position. Somehow, I don't know how, I screwed it down slightly crooked, so that one side of the windshield was about an inch in front of the other (i.e., looking down from above, the windshield would be slightly tilted to one side). Short on time and reminding myself to fix it later, I jumped on and took off for work. Amazingly, the "hesitation" effect seemed to be gone. It could just be a coincidence - I had previously noticed that the effect was reduced if I had a tailwind - but the idea that an angle to the screen might bias air to dump consistently off one side would seem a plausible explanation, and I will continue to advise of my progress and experiments.

Damn man, that's quite a mod. Very interesting for me because I too suffer a lot of buffeting around the Piaggio windscreen that was fitted to Loretta when she came to stay with me... I am on the lookout for a solution and greatly appreciate your adding details on your efforts, watching as you post results of the mod now.

drop dead...awesome documentation....and....That mod is terrific...
well done...thanks for sharing...jacquie

Great write up rjeffb...I have been kicking around the idea of a screen, but am just not sure I could find the right one...Have heard good things about the GIVI, but like you, I spend alot of time over 60 mph. You talked about the high buffeting above 60 mph...my question is...Do you think the buffeting with the GIVI over 60 mph is worse than not having a screen at all?

I honestly just scratched my head when I read this post. First off, great mod and great write up....I think this is a great example of doing what it takes to get what you like and what works for you. That said, I feel the need to defend the Givi somewhat. I've had mine for over a year, and behind that thing is like a windwall. I could read a novel behind it. I wonder if height is the issue. I'm only 5'9" or so and the Givi is perfect height for me. By perfect I mean when in 'normal' seated position, my eye line is right above the lip so that I can use it even during night or slightly dip my head forward and the wind shoot smoothly over the top of my helmet. Oh, and I run my 500 at 70+MPH ALL THE TIME. I'm mostly and interstate rider. For the summer, I've uninstalled the Givi, because it blocks so much wind that it gets warm. I've never heard of someone getting 'too much wind' behind it. There's been several "Who loves/hates their Givi/Fabbri?" type posts...

DepCor wrote
>Do you think the buffeting with the GIVI over 60 mph is worse than not having a screen at all?

That's a great question. I've often wondered about motorcycle riders who don't have any shield at all. Certainly Peter Fonda in "Easy Rider" is never shown driving more than 45mph. But on my maiden trip home with the MP3, I was struck (quite literally) by the incredible amount of air hitting me. I believe that the fairing is to blame by taking the air that would be essentially passing through a bike and directing it up. It felt like a hand pushing hard against my chest, and I never went over 60mph. I hadn't driven five miles before I concluded that the stock MP3/500 is not properly equipped to do highway speed (and I hadn't yet even found out what happens when I hit the MP3's horn button in freeway traffic ;-). On the other hand, I observed no "buffeting," to speak of. Let's make sure we agree on teminology: "buffeting" isn't "windy," and not necesarilly even "gusty" (sporatically blowing) but means the wind is rapidly and dramatically changing direction, knocking one this way and that. So in my experience, a naked 500 experiences almost no buffeting...but it sure is windy. For me (I'll get to Luthorhuss' counterpoint in a moment), the GIVI completely eliminates the constant pressure but introduces the buffeting. That being said, I did drive 70 with a GIVI, and while I found the buffeting to be extremely unpleasant it was do-able...but I cannot imagine driving the 500 without a shield at all at that speed. If anybody owns both an MP3/500 and for some reason an anerometer, please try taking a wind speed measurement over the flyscreen at 70mph with no extra shield - my guess is that you'll find the relative wind hitting you is traveling much faster (and the energy sapped from your arms combating that wind isn't proportional to wind speed, it's proportional to the square of wind speed).

Luthorhuss, I was scratching my head long before you, and not just because the end of our long rains brought out a bumper crop of New England mosquitoes. I didn't mention you by name but yes, I've seen your posts on those "other" threads that had me thinking, "is this the same windshield?" I am also 5'9" but that's no answer anyway, because even if I ducked way down the buffeting continues. When I added the LIP, the buffeting actually got worse and the behavior of the trike was affected, evidenced by a tendency to vibrate side-to-side at high speed (but the LIP eliminated the feeling that my half-helmet was being sucked off, so pick your poison). I would suggest that you experience a lower barometric pressure than I do but I recall that some posters on the other threads said they also had the same "blocks too much wind" observation who were driving in FLORIDA where I don't recall there being a great deal of extremely high mountains. So I am at a loss how the two of us, the same height and using the same hardware, have come to such dramatically different conclusions. I suppose only a side-by-side direct comparison of machines would suffice.

No way, the GIVI isn't perfect but it does a good job. Please remember that your physical atributes play an EQUAL roll in your windshield success.
If you're 7' you won't notice a difference. At 5'2" you won't feel the wind.

I am 6'2" and all I really know is the MP3 500 without any windshield at all...I guess a better way to ask the question would have been to say, which is better, taking the wind directly in the chest, or sitting in the "buffeting" or turbulence created by the GIVI (as described by rjeffb). Without the shield, I never feel like I am going to be "blown off" but it can be pretty stout at speed.

Sounds like most are happy with the GIVI....Great input by all...

I'm 6' and I want to add the Laminar Lip.
The Givi for me changed where the wind hits. Middle of chest before Givi and middle of helmet after Givi. I have broad shoulders and can feel it it on my shoulders too.

[quote="DepCor0311"]I am 6'2" and all I really know is the MP3 500 without any windshield at all...I guess a better way to ask the question would have been to say, which is better, taking the wind directly in the chest, or sitting in the "buffeting" or turbulence created by the GIVI (as described by rjeffb). Without the shield, I never feel like I am going to be "blown off" but it can be pretty stout at speed.

Sounds like most are happy with the GIVI....Great input by all...[/quote]

To repeat what I said, and backed up by Mike: I am unhappy with the Givi, but I would not ride the 500 without any additional shield. Both your arms and your disposition must be strong to be doing that. If you are interested in trying out a Givi, PM me and I'll sell you mine cheap, including the LIP (which can be easily detached). You will need to buy the hardware since mine is now connected to the Rifle (it's called the D340KIT) but that's only a fraction of the cost of the whole thing. Also verify that it comes with the grommets and the thru-hole standoffs; somebody said that you could buy those seperately but I'd make damned sure first. Or MJM, maybe we can work out something else, because mine already has the LIP (professionally mounted with the OEM nylon screws, not the cheesy velcro) and you are interested in that.

DO NOTE that thie Givi is 100% completely non-adjustable, other than the aforementioned LIP, and that might be a consideration for you, especially if you decide to raise your seat. The OEM windscreen is to some extent adjustable in height...and a WHOLE lot more money.

Hey rjeffb,
I know this sounds odd, but I completely agree with you, yet know why you're having some issues with the Givi. It's a gear thing. Bear with me:

Buffeting- I agree the Givi does cause some buffeting, or side to side motion, what we refer to as "crosswinds". This is true especially on bridges. However, I found that my Givi didn't start this until I was up over 45-50MPH and on the interstates. Like you said, it is 'doable', and honestly after a long interstate ride, I wasn't really 'worn out' by the buffeting. It was more just like a riding style that I had to get used to.

Riding with no windscreen- Like I said earlier, I don't have anything on at the moment for screens during the summer. And I ride fast, all day sometimes. How? Well, I know you'll find this hard to believe, but I would bet my bottom dollar you have the same issue I had when I first got my 500. I rode it home and though "Holy hell, how does anyone stay on this rocket!? My arms are killin me!". So I got the Givi. It wasn't until 6 months later when it warmed up and I unzipped my 3 layer jacket outer layer and got down to mesh that I discovered IT WAS THE JACKET! I know..you're like...seriously? Even with my vents open, rainproof/windproof/outer layer style jackets are like parachutes without a screen. Take one high speed ride with a mesh jacket(with armor if you can pls), and you'll be a complete believer. I now can ride all dang day and nite with no strain at all. And the cool wind is very nice and passes through, over and cools my body, and continues around me like I wasn't even there...

That said, my current 'best scenario' riding style is A. Mesh jacket and no screen during hot weather, B. Mesh jacket and Givi during extra super long rides where I might experience some light rain/bugs/ or just wanna use my GPS behind a protector, and C. Givi and outer layer/solid jacket during colder months.

Give that mesh ride at speed and no screen a try and let us know what ya think

>It's a gear thing.

Now that's an interesting hypothesis. OT, but would anyone who drives a 500 at high speed care to comment on their experiences with and without formal riding gear (and I don't mean clip-on bow ties...)?

BTW, the girlfriend has an issue with the cruiser windshield and had an even bigger issue with the Givi, she claims to be receiving far more wind than she ever got on the Shadow. I think that supports my fairing theory.

Please note that I'm saying to wear a mesh armored jacket...still formal, just not the tight knit textile or canvas style and that I'm also referring to just the effect of no screen and how it feels with both on. The Givi does cause some buffeting, but nothing too bad. For the buffeting, it coulda been the screen arms were slightly off...this has been reported by a couple of folks who had to adjust them once they were on the bike to provide a much closer fit to the bike. BTW, as for riding with the Givi and not having issues, here's me with my textile jacket on(outer layer before i realized mesh was much better for wind) and my Givi on...riding the Dragon at a good pace and eating curves without buffeting issues...

Well, the unexplained "twist"in the shield and/or Givi hardware worked itself out and it's parallel to the trike centerline again. I think I can force it by removing one of the "T" spacers. But unfortunately, it's been either raining or else traffic on the way to work has precluded me from attaining a speed that would verify my theory that angling the shield reduces the stammering. Just letting you know that I haven't forgotten to update my findings, just that there aren't any updates just yet.

If you're interested in a really cool screen mod that looks like it would potentially address all my concerns (but costs a fortune!), check out Lex500's sort of parallel project at

<https://modernvespa.com/forum/topic44314>

Interesting thread.
I agree to some extent with Lutherhuss. I have two jackets, one partly mesh with no pockets to unzip for air flow. And one that has all kinds of zippered openings to channel air.
The 1st one has much less sense of being jerked around on the bike at speed.
I tend to think a full face helmet might minimize the effects as well.

First, let me respond to the clothing issue. My first reaction is, I think quite reasonably, that this sounds far-fetched. Come on, a different jacket influencing the violent thrashing I get from the wind?

My second thought is that well, maybe; I could see that having an outer layer of material that allows air partially through could difuse the wind and lessen its impact. In high school physics, they teach that the same bullet and cartridge always results in the same recoil; but every shooter knows that the perceived kick of a gun is also influenced by the gun's mass and the length of its barrel.

And then I come back to priority one: I shouldn't have to change my clothing or riding style to ft my motorcycle, my motorcycle should just work in the first place.

And so: the Cruiser Windshield project continues!

The rain finally stopped, coolest and wettest summer in 50 years - what global warming? Continuing the accidental experiment begun when I unintentionally screwed my screen mounts on crooked and discovered that the stammering of the trike above 60mph seemed to have been reduced, I transferred the left spacer to the right strut, so that the windshield almost contacts the stalk on the left and sits way out on the right. I'd provide pix, but I'm sure you can imagine two spacers on one side and no spacers on the other, and although there's now over an inch difference between the left and right edges of the screen, you can't really see it in a photograph.

This seems to have fixed the stammering problem, no doubt by biasing the air to dump consistently around the left side of the shield. The down side is that the shield is noticably noisier, about as noisy as before I plugged the holes. Speaking of holes, I discovered that McMaster-Carr *does* sell rubber hole plugs - they're called "push-in bumpers" - now that I've gone ahead and super-glued the crappy plastic ones in place!

I have an Mp3 and have always had the large Piaggio screen and swear by it, (Here that means I think it is wonderful.) I rarely wear waterproofs in the summer, in rainy England, and need less clothing than on my Lambretta in the winter. My hands stay warm, the air is channelled away from them, and there is very little buffeting and no wind.

I maintain it is more aerodynamic than I am.

I ride mostly round town, through the 'ver changing canyons of London Traffic', but on freeways at 70mph it is not so bad, better than the aforementioned 'Lammy'

Fay

Sorry, that should say, 'Ever changing canyons of London Traffic'

Money is tight right now honestly, however I have figured out a way to make the Givi/500 screen adjustable with one of Awarenesses ideas(gotta give the boy credit). I'll explain with pictures in a new thread later.

>I have an Mp3 and have always had the large Piaggio screen and swear by it

Fay, I guess I missed your point. As I explained in my opening post...

[>While the MP3/250 and /400 have a number of windscreen choices...]

...one of my disappointments with the /500 is that it does not have the serious wind-blocking options available to its smaller brethern, even (currently) through third-party vendors.

Unless that was indeed your point as well and we are in violent agreement?

AmmoGuy, I always give Awareness credit. A much brighter puppy than I, that's for sure, as his mods are consistently simple and effective, whereas mine tend to be convoluted and iterative. Oh, speaking of which (off-topic), the sheet metal shop says they may have some scrap stainless steel diamond plate (!!!) for the footpeg brackets, stay tuned...interatively, of course.

EDIT: Nope, false alarm, no diamond plate (boy that would have been sweet) but they're ready for pick up - look for an update on my footpeg discussion soon!

First update in a long time. I ordered a replacement screen from Gustoffson plastics. It is thinner than the Rifle, we'll see if that impacts its longevity. It also is curved slightly FORWARD near the top - I know that's suppose to act like a laminar lip, we'll see. It was nominally a half-inch narrower than the Rifle, but actually it is the same 23" wide, and this width is constant up most of its height, so in point of fact it has more surface area than the Rifle, which was already a billboard on wheels.

What I did was to cut the bottom square and drill holes for the horizontal bar from the Rifle (see pix above). I then mounted it from the bottom and leaned it back against the Givi mounts, marking their through locations and drilling for the grommets. This is how I should have done it last year; now the holes are aligned with the Givi mounts, instead of me trying to foce the steel mounts to line up with some arbitrarily drilled holes. Meaning, goes on and off a lot easier and no stress or strain on the mounting points.

The next thing I did was to buy a B&D "mouse" power sander, sand the bottom edge flat (uh, after removing the horizontal bar :0), then sand a 45 degree angle into both lower corners and round off the new corners and also, by wrapping the sander back and forth with a fine grit, change the flat edge to a nice round edge. ATTTENTION OLD TIMERS: if like me, you remember a power sander being this thing that violently vibrates an inch back and forth and turns your hand numb, try one of these things. Very small movement, very high speed. Eats through plastic like magic.

Finally - and this took more than an ounce of courage - I put the coarse pad back on, stood in front of the mounted screen, and eyeballing "horizontal" as best I could, ground down the elliptical tip-top of the screen, which poked right up into my feild of vision directly in front of my eyes. I ground down maybe 3/8", but it resulted in a stretch about six or seven inches wide where the top of the screen is now straight across - my eyes are loving it. of course I also sanded out the new sharp corners and rounded out the new edge.

Unfortunately, I "popped" some plastic drilling two of the bottom holes, but they are hidden within the horizontal bracket. Gufstoffson did, in their defense, recommend I buy their special drill it and I did not. The other thing is there was a manufactuirng defect, a bump about 1mm high, on one side of the screen which is particularly frustrating because after grinding down the top, the bump was still about an inch outside the new edge. I did a very slight sand with very fine grit on the "bump" and it now cannot be seen with the naked eye, but it can be felt with the thumb.

Kinda the same, for every one that isn't that handy



http://www.ve-uk.com/auto-scooter-parts-and-accessories/screens/0/biondi/gilera-fuoco-500/

http://www.superauto.it/biondi/dettaglio.asp?ID=2051


And a Dutch club member bought this one and the Airflow for the 400 and is trying to make of those 2 screens one

Anyone know of a source for these in the U.S. or Canada?

Yes, I'd like to know where a person can get one of those windscreens in the US, too!

I third for the Biondi purchase in North America