Modern Vespa

Ok, so first of all, that was a MAJOR undertaking. Vespamaintenance.com and Haynes predict the whole thing will take ~1 hour with two people. Apparently this is not assuming it has never come off. Because in my case... try 4 hours. So many bolts were fused with rust and the ages it was incredible.

One problem I ran into, which I need help with. The rear hub nut will not come loose. That puppy is on there good. Does anyone have advice on loosening this up? We drenched the nut in WD-40 and my helper was a pretty muscley dude. It was just not happening. Please help, as I THINK this nut will need to come off if I am to replace the clutch-side seal?

Also, the rear hub wheel was turning nicely when we began the process (process is a kindly understatement), but somewhere along the way, the hub no longer turns. Is this normal or did we crack a gear or pop something loose inside the tranny trying to get the engine off? We didn't do anything too asinine, but we did have to use a lot of force hammering the main engine bolt out... that sucker did NOT want to move. I am worried the shock of that might have messed something up elsewhere in the engine?


Here's a link to my project thread so you guys can see the glory that is my 30 year old, probably never cleaned engine. Can't wait to change that!
My 1980 P200E project

rule #1...do not use a hammer for anything on a Vespa.

sounds like you may have whacked your rear axle. not too big a deal but will be kinda expensive.

you should be using PB Blaster or Naval Jelly for the rust. no more hammer ok?

Perhaps I should clarify, there was no hammering of the hub. I was hammering the main bolt which mounts the engine to the frame... TRUST me, that bolt would not have come out ANY other way. We were at that bolt alone for over an hour... it had rusted within the engine mounts it looks like. Plus I was just following the directions from vespamaintenance with the hammer for that job

*EDIT* I'm a dummy, I went and gave the hub another turn... it's in gear, that is all Because i shifted it past 4th to pop the gear selector off, it was no longer in neutral and I'm too stupid to remember this. Hub turns, it just takes effort because I'm turning the engine over with it

oh i see. no, the mount bolt should not affect the rear hub nut. my suggestion would be to buy a metal pole, like for fencing in your yard, and slap it over your rachet and use the levered force to pry it off. the total torque should be just 75 pounds per square inch. wd40 does only so much. just soak the nut in PB overnight then try again. if the mount nut was that far gone then i bet the rear hub is almost as bad. take your time and dont force anything too much. parts for your bike are not too hard to find so dont sweat it too much.

Thanks Jamesjohn! See my edit above regarding the hub itself... it seems fine, it's just in gear The nut, I think, was overtightened by someone over the years. Hopefully not too much that it trashed the axle as you say

Leverage is your friend, I have a bunch of steel pipes of varying lengths that fit over my socket driver. One of you hold the socket on the nut so it doesn't slip off while the other puts pressure onto the long bar. Always does the trick for me.

Wil

I second the penetrating oil, but I've had better luck with really rusted stuck things working with them slowly. Like ad the oil and come back a bit later and move it a bit more oil repeat.

put the lump in your kids red wagon and take it to the corner garage and have em air wrench it off

DAMMIT! I KNEW there was a reason to have kids I was forgetting.

grocery cart

your neighbors wagon!

on the floor board of your other scooter

i soak hell rust seized bits and bolts in eucalyptus oil concentrated it works a hundred times better than wd40 just dont get it in your eyes

put it on a skateboard

trunk of your car

Seriously? How about tea tree oil, I've got some of that...

All excellent ideas. I image I could just go to the midas right near by.

impact is cool for taking off

some say not cool for putting on

all vespa shops use them

exactly...

airgun= cool for zipping stuff off and breaking things apart

torque wrench for putting it all back together.

best,
-greasy

Nobody's brought up the old classic of heating engine oil and then soaking, but i think this works best if you can drop the part in a pan of the stuff. I'd also suggest sanding off anything you can get a piece of sandpaper to. If it's been that long, any layers of rust you can remove before the big push are going to help. Get a wrench, a pipe, and somebody big like me to jump up and down on the far end.

[quote= my suggestion would be to buy a metal pole, like for fencing in your yard, and slap it over your rachet and use the levered force to pry it off. the total torque should be just 75 pounds per square inch. wd40 does only so much. just soak the nut in PB overnight then try again. if the mount nut was that far gone then i bet the rear hub is almost as bad. take your time and dont force anything too much. parts for your bike are not too hard to find so dont sweat it too much.[/quote]

slapping a hunk o pipe in a ratchet is a good way to break a tool, get yourself a breaker bar and a good 1/2" drive six-pint socket and you should be able to twist it right off.

use your teeth! That's why god gave 'em to you!

I believe my mother might hunt your down, Eric, after all the money she put into braces for me when I was a child

Well before I get too carried away with the nut, these are the things I need to do:
Replace the flyside seal, replace the clutch-side seal, and replace the cruciform.

I don't need to get that hub nut off to do any of those, correct? If so, perhaps I should wait until I've got the scoot back on the road and just ride it to the local mechanic, have him whiz the nut loose for me, and I can retighten it there in a less absurd manner.

Correct. You only need to undo the rear hub nut if you're going to pull the rear axle completely out of the scoot, which you don't need to do to change the cruciform, let alone the two crank seals.

EEEEXCELENT. First good news I've had in a bit, since it looks like I might be needing a replacement cylinder or to bore up a size which aint cheap either (Incidentally, anyone got a cheap cylinder for me?)

i say use the teeth and check your brakes

would'nt hurt

to check the brakes that is

Ok so after popping flywheel and clutch cover off today I have two new questions:

1: Due to the bad clutchside seal, there was oil under the clutch cover. Does this mean the clutch is kaput?


2: The woodruff key - I read it shouldn't be gouged or scored. There IS a groove on it, but I wouldn't call it a "gouge" or "score..." it almost looks like it is supposed to be there. Sorry for the bad picture, but the dark line on the key is the point where the key recesses or gets narrower. Is that a sign of wear or are woodruff keys supposed to look like that?

Nope, it's not supposed to look like that. Woodruff keys should be a uniform thickness. Your pic makes me think that either i) someone didn't have the right size key and ground it down to fit (the clutch side and flywheel woodruff keys are different sizes, at least on my ride) or, ii) it's very badly worn and could mean that you are getting way more play and sloppiness then you should have. It's hard to tell from the blurry pic...

If it's on the flywheel side then it means there could be play in the crank relative the the flywheel which could affect timing (since the position of the rotating flywheel relative to the fixed stator is what determines when your plug fires). If there's slop it could be hard to get an accurate positioning; retarded timing would cause poor performance, too advanced timing would cause great performance but at the very real risk of overheating and burning a hole in the top of your piston.

Thanks Phaetn! Definitely will order a new flyside woodruff. Will this affect the behavior of my setup, or does this just mean the setup was probably performing poorly (e.g. will remounting the stator as it came off be incorrect for a correct key?)

It's hard to say... I suppose it depends on how much play there was between the flywheel and the crank (if at all). Did it look like the recessed area where the woodruff key fits was worn at all, or did it have clearly defined edges and make for a snug fit? Even so, it's the top that's worn so presumably you could move the flywheel very slightly by hand back and forth without it turning the crank.

When mine was a bit worn and there was woodruff key play in the base I used some JB Weld to keep things in place, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend it as it could make your key become a semi-permanent fixture and hard to get out if it ever snapped (as it's designed to do if need be). I used it because the alternative was to get a new crank so I wasn't losing anything. As it happens, the JB Weld was strong enough to prevent play, but I've had the key drop out since when taking off the flywheel so it's not like it was really welded in there...

I have a points ignition system (e.g. not electronic) so to check timing I use a light bulb circuit and check its dimming to coincide with BTDC. You're best to check up Scooterhelp's guide to see what's what on your system (I'm assuming it's electronic ignition).

The recession for the key doesn't look bad, luckily, so my guess is I just need a new key (or 2, once I get a look at the clutch-side key)

And the fluid in the clutch area?

Woodruff Key Speech:

Woodruff keys are designed to locate the parts on the shaft, NOT to hold them in place.
Preventing the flywheel or clutch from rotating on the shaft is accomplished by the nut tightly touqued down, pressing the tapered surface of the flywheel against the tapered surface of the crank (which need to be smooth, clean, and oil-free, and which is why you cannot sand or grind them, as it will change the taper).
If the nut is too loose, the shaft will spin, cutting the key in half like butter.
If the nut is a tiny bit loose, the flywheel may turn slightly, putting a ledge in the key, as in your case.
The edges of the key channel in the shaft should be sharp enough to cut your finger if you run it across them.

Get at least 2 of each key you need.
They're cheap and small, and you should carry them with you all the time, just in case.

As for the clutch question - perhaps I'm not clear on what exactly you are asking.
It sounds as though you are asking whether the clutch should be running in oil.
If I've understood that right, then the answer is yes - it is an oil bath clutch.
It runs in oil picked up from the transmission sump.
A bad clutch side seal will allow fuel / oil mixture to combine with the transmission oil, which you should be able to smell, but the clutch should always be wet with oil.

- Eric

Get 2??!?

Man... when it comes to woodruff keys and festoon bulbs, i order like 10 of each kind, each time. That way you've got them if your friends need them.


It's just too much money in shipping to have to make piecemeal orders on dinky little shit parts like that.

It's like going to the ATM that charges a $2.50 fee and just taking out $5.00 in cash.

Wow, thank you both Erics! This is why I love this place.

I'm not sure I could cut myself by simply grazing my finger along the channel, but it does have pointy edges... do I need a new crank or is that sufficient since the key doesn't actually HOLD the flywheel in place?

Clutch - that is a relief

+ 1,000

I guess I was just trying to sound "reasonable."

Plus, I was visualizing having 2 of each WITH me on the bike, not thinking of placing the actual order.

But, yes, what you just said. Well, I HAVE cut myself on oily woodruff key channels (yes, plural. Doh.), but wouldn't use their ability to injure me as an absolute measure of their condition. Basically, the channels should be crisp and not dinged up. In the best of all possible worlds, the channel should be a loose friction fit with the key, and hold it gently, but firmly, but repeated assembly / disassembly cycles and the possibility of imprecise manufacturing tolerances for new keys (they're cheap disposable items made in China...) could leave things a BIT looser. Remember, though, the key doesn't HOLD anything, it just LOCATES it, so if it's a tiny bit looser, it won't affect anything of any importance.

Oh, and, you're welcome.

- Eric

I wasn't saying that like "only 2? You're an asshole!"...sorry if it sounded like that. I just meant like ... with these little consumable parts, just order a bunch. Spark plugs, woodruff keys, bah ...even something like a cable set would be smart to have a backup of. It saves you from being stranded and waiting on an order next time, plus you save on shipping.

I got your drift - didn't think you were saying that - just agreeing with you, that's all.
Besides I AM an asshole!

In my family, we've always had the bad habit of buying a few dozen if we get a good deal, even though we only need one, so I was just trying to avoid imposing my own neurosis on some other innocent person.

In fact, I've recently discovered I have a huge assortment of cable hardware and other miscellaneous little screws and such because 20 years ago, when he didn't even HAVE a Vespa, my father bought a bunch of stuff from a guy selling off a defunct dealership "just in case" he might need it later...

- Eric

Asshole or not i think the above Eric (MDchanic) deserves some Karma points. : )

Considering the majority of his 199 post have been very positive and helpful to many.

What say you 8)

Cheers

Aw, shucks, Jim.

agreed.

Hey, Eric, I've got an "imponderable" GS 160 question that is pretty much for you, as the "160 guy," that I've already gotten some input on.

I'll post it soon as a new thread for all to enjoy...

- Eric

is it the one you posted on the BBS? I was reading about that.

Yup.

Don't wanna double-post and piss anyone off (still not 100% clear on the etiquette).