Modern Vespa

Is there any way of knowing how far one is away from getting a Karma symbol, either positive or negative?

Nothing that I'm aware of...

Not yet. I'm working on a new user profile page that will tell you your own karma details.

I see that this whole positive/negative rating system has gone over really big, but I don't really understand what is so attractive about it. Do we really need a way to cast judgement on one another? What ever happened to tolerance of different viewpoints and personalities? I can think of one perfectly nice person and long-time member who recived a very negative karma rating when the system was first implemented. He never posted anything hateful or out of line, yet he still ended up with a negative rating. I don't know if the fact that he was publicly rated as "negative" by people that he thought were his friends had anything to do with it, but he pretty much quit posting. IMHO, the whole idea of a negative rating system probably generates it's own amount of negative karma (if you believe in karma). I sincerely hope I learn to be more tolerant of others, not find joy in my ability to vote them off the island.

I think that folks like it because it empowers them to change the forum
into more of what they'd like to see

I see this as a very positive thing for the positive karma votes,
but not so much for the negative ones

Seems to me that some members are already putting a lot more negative energy into MV than positive
And this gives just them an opportunity to do it anonymously

You're focusing entirely on the negative, even though the ratio of positive to negative votes is overwhelmingly in favor of positive.

That said... Tolerance of different viewpoints is one thing. Tolerance of bad behavior is something else entirely. I'm fairly adamant that we won't tolerate bad behavior here. This gives you all a vote in what constitutes "bad behavior". You're welcome to participate, but you can also choose not to.

To cast this as entirely a machine decision is not quite accurate, since it is the MV community driving the decisions. The machine may enforce the decisions at some point, but it's not the party making the decision.

More like:

It's back now but on another post it was gone, so maybe a temporary - Ghost in the Machine.

Update: Jess on this post that I just checked my Avatar was gone:

https://modernvespa.com/forum/topic50116

I can see your avatar there. Try hitting reload on that page?

The reload works, but after my initial reply there is no Avatar, it also just happened with this post: https://modernvespa.com/forum/topic50143

No biggie though, I just don't ever remember this happening before.

To say that I am focusing entirely on the negative is not fair. I think the vast majority of posts on MV are positive. Every once in a blue moon one comes around that I think is obnoxious ... usually it is one where someone is correcting someone's grammar or spelling. If I rated every post that I found positive, I would be clicking a thumbs-up on 99.9% of the posts, and what is the point of that? I really don't see any one person's posts as being better than someone elses. Some posts aren't necessarily helpful, or funny, or witty, but they make for a better forum anyway. I just am not enamored with a system that singles people out as being better or worse than one another. My opinion wasn't a challenge. It was simply my point of view, offered to snakebite in support of his point of view.

I like your rules, Stephen. Except I would have to add that I would be unlikely to give a thumbs up to any posts with foul language or offensive pics. Maybe no vote at all in those cases.

I was actually referring to the focus on negative ratings, but your point is taken. I think there's a difference between "not negative or offensive" and "positive", but that's a personal opinion. In any case, the thumbs-up is really supposed to be for posts that you find helpful, as opposed to merely not negative. The idea is to reward those people who take time out of their day to help someone else. I don't see what's so awful about that concept.

I would go so far as to say that the vast majority of people here who are taking the time to be helpful aren't getting the credit they deserve. Lots of helpful posts, with straight answers to difficult questions, go uncredited by the people who are directly benefitting from those answers.

Seriously, what's so bad about giving credit where credit is due? Have you ever asked a question here and gotten an answer that was helpful? Now what about the other responses in that same thread... were all of them equally helpful? Oh, absolutely. And I wouldn't want it any other way.

Comin' your way, Mr. Snake Lick.

With the karma adjustments to eliminate excessive voting, your karma slate is clean-- and ready for all that reptilian lovin'.

Nothing, really. But I'm against the "gold star" reward system in schools, too. Everyone brings something unique to the table. I don't think anyone deserves any more credit than anyone else simply because they have a different style of contributing. Again, that is just my opinion. (And yes, some posts are more helpful in a thread than others, but most threads would be tiny if they were condensed to only the "helpful" posts. Just because they aren't helpful, doesn't mean they don't deserve appreciation).

It is giving "bad" credit where none is due that really rubs me the wrong way. I refer back to my original post about the long-term member with the negative rating. I can't remember a single post of his that was out of line.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[quote="pdxvespa"][quote="snakebike"] Settle down girlfriend.
See, I knew I wasn't a bad person but that negative thing had me beleiving I was. Last night I was found naked,sweating, shaking in fear, curled up in a dark corner dripping a mixture of bath water and blood having failed to scrape or wash off that awful red insignia.....

I feel better today but I will not be thumbing anyone UP or Down. Thumb yourself if you want to be Thumbed.

People are going to want to thumb you and there is nothing you can do about it. Brace yourself.

[quote="snakebike"][quote="pdxvespa"] Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Thanks JESS for your response. I was going to write this last nite but i got busy,went to bed and at first glance this morning i see where some of what i was going to say might have happened already but i will write what i had planned. I just see a whole bunch of extra work for you and the mods. Responses will be skewed by peoples perceptions,bias,beliefs,lack of knowledge about the system etc. People will always be able to get around anything you fix trust me. It will consume you. Yesterday i noticed something as i was reading thru some threads. First was BENITO had lower targets than some people as did LOMUNCHI. Both go way beyond the norm in helping people so i'm not finding this target thing will be of much value. I suspect they will not change the way they are with or without the targets and know that they help people. Like years ago when gary a member got his scooter stolen while he was on vacation in CA. Then about 9 months later one of the guys from motorsport scooters comes on with "anybody missing a scooter" another member remembered who had lost it. Gary got his scooter back,a few people bought things for his scooter and Max and his crew had it up and running for him(donated their time) when he went to pick it up. No fanfare just a community working together. I doubt they need good karma they already have it but my thanks to them is using them and recommending them to others because they go the extra mile. That is what this community is all about. It still goes on. People help one another I see it in the threads. For me personally i thank people at the time and probably won't use it since i will forget to do it on a continuous basis and might tend to give more positive to people i know subconsciously rather than others. Then my head would explode just thinking about whether i'm being fair etc. I also fear more polarization into groups. Like people who have targets and those who don't. Because of all the variables i don;t think it will a true reflection on whether someone is helpful or not. I find i'm thanked when i help somebody and corrected when i'm wrong and that's fine with me.I will confess to giving SNAKEBITE a few thumbs up because i feel he has a target on his back and i would bet my LT that if a negative karma giver would actually meet him they might god forbid even like him. I also think some people will feel the need to have those targets and that opens up a whole other can of worms. I would throw caution to the wind and get rid of all those buttons and see how people actually do. Peer pressure really does work when somebodies stepping out of bounds. I see people saying something like "tell us how you really feel" which is an awesome way to get a person to take a look at how they wrote something. No matter what you do someone is always going to complain but put it back on them. JESS you used always post fun videos with music of your weekend rides and other fun stuff. I miss that. Now you have your chickens and garden but i think you know where i'm coming from. Go out have fun let the kids be accountable for their own actions Oh and i know our numbers have increased dramatically since i joined but i see a whole lot of 0-10 posters on there. It would be interesting to see what the percentage of actual users are. Might have stayed about the same. L actually LIKES math i'm sure she could have the numbers yesterday! I apologize for the length of this and hope i'm getting my point across. Just some thoughts.

i like a system that polices behavior

for example: we on the 'not so modern' side have a member named adampx.

i am sure he is a fine crazy scooter person like i and others.

but there are times when he post things that bring out the bully in me.

i am not a bully but can't help slapping some sence into him, and after feeling like a chump.

it is often over things that i have done.

i always end up coming back with an apology and try to lend help to him.

adam,if you are reading this i am only useing you as an example because of your tenacity with issues,i like you.

so with that said i beleive a karma/watchdog/bigbrother thing is good.

it keeps members like me on our toes.(emoticon of little yellow guy on toes)

It's possible. As in most things I undertake, failure will teach me as much -- if not more -- than success will. If it all goes to hell in a handbasket, I'll turn off the rating system and move on to whatever's next. I definitely see and understand the inequities that exist, and I agree that many people who are extremely helpful aren't getting the credit they deserve. That's why I'm urging everyone to thumb-up posts that they find helpful, since "helpful" is the trait that I want to encourage most. It is, as you've pointed out, one of the things that makes MV what it is.

Will the system be perfect? No. Definitely not. Will it reward those who generously donate their time to complete strangers? I hope so. It does, but it works better out there in the real world, away from the computer. It's much easier to be a virtual badass than it is to be a real-life badass, and all too many people play the part with no consequences to their actions. Heh. I miss it too. Too many projects, not enough time. Yeah, I've been curious about that too. On a given day, how many UNIQUE users post a message? And how many UNIQUE users log in? I'm not sure I can figure out how many UNIQUE anonymous users there are, but I'd definitely be curious about the other numbers.

Hmmm... that sounds like another project....

Thanks Jess, I knew I wasn't being that much of an ass
I know I am stubborn and stand my ground. But I am a really nice guy that is ready to help anyone. Just ask any of my customers.

Wayne B

If nothing else, the experimental MV karma rating system has folks talking productively about our connections on this forum.

Props (thumbs up?) to redhandmoto, astromags, Alice, Judy, and, yes, snakebike for your thoughtful posts--

And to many others who've been willing to say what they're thinking about this, and about trying to have a forum that works well most of the time.
It usually does, thanks to most of you!

If it's any consolation, know that the moderators also had discussed feeling some discomfort about being publicly rated . Except for MV-Bot, who said to bring it on.

As Jess has said, this is an experiment. We'll see how it goes-- and we'll count on you to continue to let us know what you think.

Cheers,

--Deborah

Thanks and i think it will keep you off the streets JESS PDX yikes when i last looked yesterday you had way more targets than Benny now you have less See now i'm feeling guilty for not putting you in the mix in my earlier post(insert head blowing up emoticon here). Here's 10 green thumbs up. All this being nice can get boring ya know I want Yardsale and his colored script back

i have found that what you all have created is a continually(?) evolving space that focuses on good rather than bad.

we are the space ship traveling through the void that will 'win' because we do focus on strength and sollution rather than fear and problems


my comunication skills have improved since i joined and that is in all areas of my life.

thanx MV

(now i need to work on my spelling )

Judy, don't tempt me into using that thumbs up button.

Very funny.

ooooh rgconner it's so shiny. would you call it a polished turd.

Also was thinking on my ride home yesterday that if you are using the mod symbol for good then you should use a rock symbol for bad.


always hated rocks ever since I was mauled by my mates pet rock when I was a kid. I still cry at night about it

You want an interesting experiment, instead of ridding the site of the bad asses why not get them to be leaders. I know nothing about DannyW other then the rant that I saw him and Jess get into just the other day and his 4 red tags. Make him a moderator, give him responsibilities I bet you would be surprised at what happens.....common risk it...

I like the idea and I am sure it will be fine tuned over the next few days.

Heh. Well, on the up side, it would definitely give Danny an inside look at how the sausages are made, so to speak. He would probably immediately realize that I'm not banning people right and left, and he might also realize how much work the moderators do to keep up with the volume of stuff here. He'd also be privvy to the conversations in the lounge, where we struggle to set policy and collectively figure out what to do about whatever situation happens to be facing us that day.

On the other hand, Danny has no redeeming values as a moderator that I can think of...

I think snakebike has a point.

Paul

Be careful what you wish for - look what happened to me!

I see your targets. But for what are they really for?

Your ego at knowing so much or having friends on MV, or your opinion is more right than mine or others without one, umm when do I get enough targets to over ride somebody elses opinion or experiences, making judgements before I've even stated cant be good.

You see moderaters you do a mighty fine job letting a negative comments on a thread run it's course and as always people end happy and more content because they find kindness in human kind when they reallise how difficult it can be all writing in English (any English will do,) and it was all just a miss-understanding.

You see I have all ready "heard it said" (read,) that it is for

1) Rating helpful people, well if I know how to do something and I can help I will wouldn't you? When was the last time you helped an old lady cross the road and then you asked her for a sticker cos her thank you wasn't enough!!!

2) Moderators don't like telling people off/ kicking them off the site?
Well, this is a bit more tricky because where do you put the limit? Personally I don't judge people I respond to them. If somebody's been rude or offensive tell them thats what you think. So if you, and you do have a need to sort out the wheat from the chaff, then anytime & only anytime a member has to "report" some posting/reply you have a system where by only the moderators can vote. So say when the first 5 moderators have voted the post either stays or goes and both parties are notified of the out come and except it. Warnings can be given to both parties for rudeness but also for always picking up on the littlest things and wasting moderators time. Both parties can switch off.

3) If you really want to rate each other and pat each other on the back all the time then make it fair. Their are 1000's of us on MV, all loving it, don't go a spoil it by saying 3 targets means more than none, because I tell you this for sure, MODERATORS YOU WILL START TO LOOK INWARDS TO OFTEN, and sure you'll have your little group of 'targetiers', but that's not what you want, you want to be the WORLDS BIGGEST VESPA FORUM, if you're not there already that is.

I PROPOSE THIS IDEA...
Who ever post a thread asking a question for help on how do you mend, sort out, rectify, experience of, etc etc then that PERSON ONLY votes on all the good helpful advice that they receive. It is them that asked for the help so it's them that should say thanks (although they always do already, only nobody gets a sticker.)
Any negative stuff just gets left by the wayside.

NEGATIVE is only good if it's followed up with POSITIVE.(see line below.)

Keep up the good work. MV is still the best forum for Vespa's in the world.

You make some excellent and valid points, and I definitely understand your point of view and where you're coming from. That said, managing a forum of any nontrivial size quickly becomes a matter of human labor and judgement, with all the inconsistencies inherent therein. We could continue to add moderators to cope with the volume, but that would just increase the inconsistency, since every moderator will have a slightly different skew on things.

This system is a tool, then, to help us make better and more consistent judgements. Yes, we are more likely to give a long-time user with plenty of karma a bit more leeway than a new user who wanders in off the street and starts telling everyone what's what. In other forums, this system is referred to as a reputation system, and it hews fairly closely to systems we use out in the real world to sort out sound advice from drivel.

It's also a system that we can use to improve search results, by showing higher-rated posts (that meet the search criteria) more than lower-rated posts. It's not entirely unlike the mechanism that Google uses to give you relevant search results.

We can also harness the ratings in real-time to spot places in the forum where there is conflict. We long ago ceased being able to read every single post here, but if there are a whole bunch of negative votes on a thread, it's nearly certain that an argument has broken out in that thread, and we can respond that much faster.

While there are some potential negatives to the system, I see a whole lot of potential positives, too. And in my judgement, the positives outweigh the negatives.

Some MV miscreants have been rather successfully rehabilitated, it's true! 8)

No matter what you do from now on YOU (MV) Moderators have set up & running the best Vespa forum out there. SO KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK, all that hard work is worth it for us. To have somewhere to go for technical answers is amazing. But it's also nice to get to know the people behind the Vespa...

A difficult job, so well done for finding the time to try these new ideas out.

I thought of you as I was writing. Have any of you seen the doco where they took a group of likable people and made half of them prison guards and half prisoners and let them loose in their roles. Or the electric shock button pushers..... You start understanding how genocide works.