Modern Vespa

Years ago, it was Italians 1st, Japanese 2nd, Taiwan 3rd and Chinese last.

Now it is really hard to tell...

You buy a Piaggio Fly that was assembled in China. My 2005 Piaggio Typhoon has a variator made by TGB (Taiwan). Kymco, a Taiwanese company, puts out the Chinese manufactured Agility models. The Agility is very popular and has received reliable reviews. You definitely can rely on anything that Honda manufactures. There are so many Chinese scoots out there without issues.

Taiwan scoots are on the rise. Genuine distributes the Buddy scooter (made in Taiwan), and it has become known as an incredibly reliable vehicle. After researching 125cc scooters, I actually found that everything was compared to the Buddy.

Okay, now my head is spinning...

I realize that you (supposedly made in Italy) scooter owners are going to say Piaggio/ Vespa, but please be objective.

What do you think the quality tier level is at this time of so much scooter manufacturing?

I've got a Kymco People 125S and it is a great scoot and super reliable. I formerly owned a Suzuki Burgman 400 that never needed anything more than an oil change in 4 years.

My 'new' MP3 400 has made 3 trips to the shop in 4 months. The Piaggio has superior engineering but is not the most reliable of bikes.

I think the tiers these days are more brand specific as opposed to country of origin.

As is proved by companies like Genuine, the country of origin isn't as relevant as the dedication to the quality of the brand by the manufacturer.

I don't think there is just 1 top manufacturer. I think Piaggio, Kymco, Honda, SYM, Genuine are all top tier.

TGBs are getting better from what I've heard...
Generics like Lance Vintage and complete no-name brands on the bottom tier.

Just my two cents...

+1.

Tiers by brand, absolutely. I like your pecking order of quality; might give Honda a tiny edge for reliability and, uh, "robustness."

I would assume that Yamaha (also made in Taiwan) might make that list as well.

Yes, definitely. I didn't mean to leave it out.

In my personal experience i would have to agree with that list. having owned
1 piaggio, 3 Yamaha's, 1 Honda, and 2 Kymco's they are fantastic machines.

In my experience the Yamaha's and the Kymco's we're absolutely bullet proof.
I've had a Vino from '02 that's needed minimal maintenance (i was absolutely reckless with that thing) and only changed the tires once (no oil changes as it is a 2 stroke). Literally it was the only thing that i ever brought it in to the shop for. And my friend is still riding it everyday.

Kymco's are just as reliable as the best of them (that's why I just got a P250 ).
My old P50 was awesome the only reason I still don't have is because it got stolen.

The honda is next being that i had small things that weren't 100%.

And piaggio is kind of like a really good baby. They are great but you have to take care of them
The fact that taking off the evap sys is standard operating procedure and that it still doesn't start as smoothly as my other scoots just says it all. But that doesn't take away from the quality of the scooter. I just think piaggio made some errors ....( ie not e/o lives in CAFE state, and it was a poor CAFE design)

Again these are my personal experiences. YMMV

Genuine is definitely not a top tier product. I used to work for them in the warranty department here in Chicago. I believe Honda and Yamaha own the top tier followed by Vepsa and Aprilia.

Have the Italians ever made ANYTHING that didn't require more babying ? That's their modus operandi!!

You buy a Honda Accord if you don't want to have to take something into the shop. You buy a Ferarri or Mazerati if you want to look cool and have an awesome performing machine ...even if it's going to have to make trips to the shop.


I wouldn't put ANY indian manufacturer anywhere near the top tier... so the LML / Bajaj bikes can't be considered as part of it.

Well Said +1

+2 with the addition of Yamaha

Are we judging solely on reliability? Does fit and finish play into this list?

I think your the first I have read say this about Genuine.I know a great many would disagree with this.All scooter brands have warranty work needed but it seems like you are saying Genuine has more than they should have huh? If I read correctly over at MB in the past,the 07's had some problems but were taken care of and the 08 and 09's are bullet proof.Finally I see Genuine time after time up there with the other well known proven brands already mentioned for reliability.

Taiwanese bikes and Japanese branded bikes built in Taiwan I would have no trouble trusting. Chinese-mainland built bikes, not so much.

Tier-ing things is tough though...what are the criteria?

Judged solely as an APPLIANCE (or reliability): Honda/Yamaha (interchangeable) then Aprilia/Vespa/Kymco (interchangeable) then all the rest.

Judged on their LONGJEVITY: Vespa...then Honda...then all the rest. (Only old scooters I see rolling about in any quantity, who still have a manufacturer making their marquee today...are Vespas and old Hondas.) Hondas just hold up but look ratty, and Vespas people love so much, they wont let them die, and many look better than new.

Judged on BUILD QUALITY: Yamaha/Honda/Aprilia/Vespa...interchangeable. I've had fuel pumps go on Yamahas, seen parts break off in Hondas or Aprilias, and seen flaws in the paint of Vespas.
Personally I like the total build package of Yamahas and Vespas.

Judged as a DESIGN-ICON: Vespa...who else still uses the same lines today as they did 40+ years ago?

Judged on DESIGN-STYLE: Vepsa/Honda/Yamaha/Aprilia/Kymco...interchangeable, and all a matter of personal taste.

Anyhoot...the top bike in any tier is going to be the one that pushes whatever personal buttons you have.

Exactly. That's why I was thinking the only criterion that is truly quantifiable is reliability. Style is completely based on opinion.

That is redundant. Piaggio is getting to careless with the manufacturing of scoots. I work about 2 days a week in our local vespa repair shop and do see several piaggo scoots coming in with problems they shouldn't have.

In terms of reliability, the PGO-built Genuine scooters are right up there with the Vespas. The number and frequency of issues are probably about the same, or fewer, than those with the Piaggio-built scooters. Some models are actually probably more reliable. They're also much less expensive and cheaper and easier to maintain.

No, Genuines don't need more warranty work than Piaggio/Vespas. From speaking to many dealers and owners, the other top Taiwanese makes-SYM and Kymco-are probably on an equal footing, with the possible exception of some of the models built on mainland China.

The Buddy, in particular, is intended to be a lower-cost alternative to similarly-sized options from other companies. What you get is a scooter that performs as well as the best, is as reliable, but which doesn't have the fit and finish of a Vespa or the premium brand name cost that comes with the Italian and Japanese makes.

As for what's "top tier," that's hard to say. Are you talking in terms of sales? Quality? Value? Top tier in the US may not be top tier overseas.

I think what's happening now is that we're seeing a greater diversity in quality scooters at a variety of price points. Unfortunately, the current economy and drive to keep manufacturing costs down may slow the momentum of the past few years.

This is good for scooterists of all stripes. This is good for Vespa. It helps build a broader, more sustainable US scooter market and draw people who may have not been interested previously to scooters.

It's easy to discount the Chinese because most of the product originating from there is lower quality. The Taiwanese were once in the same position, but it was partnering with foreign companies that raised the quality and standards there. This will happen with China over time. Already, the company building some of the Piaggios there will be selling lower-priced clones under their own banner.

Other Asian countries could become big players, too-namely Vietnam. Piaggio has opened factories there. KLD, which has probably the most viable and exciting electric scooter headed for the US market, will be building it in Vietnam.

I think that it depends on how you define the tiers.

Say what you want , I answered the phone and many had their Genuine Buddy's in for the dumbest stuff within the first 100 miles. Engines blowing, upper motor problems, the worst electrical system, stator (85 watts) You couldn't even run a 55watt headlight with the bike because the draw would be too much and kill the battery, stator. Don't get me started on the 30+ voltage regulators that were back ordered on new bikes.

I personally like the Buddy as far as feel and looks but for the Price of a Piaggio Fly, Honda Elite, Zuma 125 or sportcity 125..... Come on. I owned a 2009 Yamaha Zuma 125 before I bought the 300 Super and personally for the quality of bike, price, features, ..... Fuel injection.... 2 up seating capability.....4 valve head....... it just can't be beat. If I didn't need a larger displacement, long distance tourer i'd still have it.

The Buddy is simply a rebadged bike sold to the highest bidders around the world who pay to have their name put on it. If the Buddy was 2k new like a Kymco 150 it would be the deal of the century, but for 3K+ OTD ......Whatever keep it.

If you want to say Genuine is on a second tier with Sym and Kymco I'll buy that, but it can't come close to a Honda, Yamaha or Vespa in any category with the possible exception of price in some cases. (VESPA)

It's rather difficult to take the word of someone who may have an axe to grind with Genuine. For example, a former employee...

No axes to grind......... everything stated was the truth. But hearing the other side of the story from the Admin of Modern Buddy is just as sketchy..... is it not?

This thread has become much more interesting than I originally thought it would

much more, yes 8)

It is interesting to hear some negative comments about Genuine, though I'm not flabbergasted, most companies including Piaggio cut corners and have design flaws their fans don't like to talk about

I'll be the first to say the paint quality on my new 300 Super has a lot to be desired.

+1000.

We tore one of these up, studied the inferior frame and components and threw the franchise back. I am not just a Genuine hater, I sincerely attempted and took the franchise on however all it took was a couple of rides and next to our Vespa's, not a chance. Vespa Oceanside (another huge Vespa dealer) did the same exact thing and we didn't even communicate about it, the truth is just so obvious on this.

The other problem is (see the modern buddy thread now) is that Phillip and company HATE Vespa so the polarity is unreal. They actually think they can compete with the quality of a Vespa and the bigger cc's are coming, hilarious. Come ride a Vespa 300 Super at my shops, no words required.

Sure Genuine is selling some bikes, I didn't say they can't win a few Vespa or other franchise deals, but they are selling price and color, not quality.

I would say the Piaggio and Honda/Yamaha are on par, Kymco is right there and the rest are cheaper wannabe's in this group of scoots. Stella? Stella? Has one person bragged this bike up yet as an owner?

I saw a guy riding a Genuine on the 101 freeway last week (I commute daily) and have seen Piaggio's, Vespa's, Kymco's, Bergmans, Etc darn near every day however the Genuine guy looked absolutely suicidal, the scoot was literally all over the place and the guy was mortified. I felt for him.

Ducking for cover.

SDG

Just some fun facts.

http://dealers.piaggiousa.com/ExtranetDocuments/PiaggioVespa%2FPV_SalesTool_09_February.pdf

SDG

You Buddy haters are off the wall...
I got an '07 125cc Buddy, and it's reliable, quick, well put together, and a lot of fun.
65MPH at almost 90MPGs? -There's not many other scoots that can claim that... (Including Vespa?)

And as far as seeing a Buddy not doing so good on a high speed freeway, you think an ET or an LX would've
faired better? Hey, some scoots are made for the superslabs, and some are not...

Anyway, youse guys oughta go spend some time over on the MB (Modern Buddy) forum.
You'll see very few problems come up on the owner's scoots there.
Much less than what's on the Chinese scooter forums, of course, but maybe even less than on MV?

I like both my GT200 and my Buddy 125...
But I have this theory of why Vespa riders so often go out of their way to knock Buddys.
I do believe it's because they FEAR this little wasp killer (that cost's about $1k less then their fabled ETs and LXs...)

Hey, when Scoot Magazine did reviews of 50cc scoots (several months ago), and then recently of 150cc ones,
this Italian-Iron-Loving mag went way out of it's way to set up a few miserable Chinese clones
to compete with the Vespa 50's and 150's to make the Italian machines look good.
However in both sets of comparisons there was not a Buddy to be found!
Anywhere!!!
LOL! -I wonder why....

It's interesting to hear the negative experiences with Genuine. The folks I've known around here love their Buddy's and Stella's and I've only heard very good things about them.

When I posted my list of who I thought was in the top tier I put brands that have solid, across the board, reputations (Kymco, Honda) as well as brands that I have heard nothing but rave reviews about from local riders (SYM, Buddy/Stella). The posts about Genuine definitely give me pause about the brand, but I still might consider buying one based on the raves from the folks I ride with who ride them...

For me the top tier is a list of manufactures that I would buy, or recommend to a friend. The fit, finish, vibe, soul, etc would be up to the purchaser (which is why I think it's great to have many, varied, top tier manufacturers - a look and feel for everyone's tastes).

Well, apparently former Genuine employees and Vespa dealers hate 'em!

All I'm sayin' is, if I want to find out about Kymcos, I'm not going to ask a bunch of Yamaha dealers and owners. It's not a matter of honesty or credibility. I'm sure both these guys have both in spades. But there are a lot of opinions out there and what everyone else who's commented on this here has heard conflicts. That's the nature of opinion, I suppose.

I can't claim to be unbiased; I run ModernBuddy. But it's not like I make any money off selling them or have anything to gain by making hyperbolic claims about the quality. I think they're good scoots, but don't expect anyone to take my word for it. Hell, I wouldn't want someone to. There are plenty of people who will say that who don't run Genuine forums! Which thread is that?
This one? http://www.modernbuddy.com/forum/topic12179.html

Eric,

I didn't respond on the modern buddy forum, but this is the Vespa forum so don't start with me here, hehe.

Thought you were stopping by?

Best,
SDG

[/quote]The other problem is (see the modern buddy thread now) is that Phillip and company HATE Vespa so the polarity is unreal. They actually think they can compete with the quality of a Vespa and the bigger cc's are coming, hilarious. [/quote]


It's amazing now that Phillip and the crew at Genuine have 5000 unsold scooters in storage they are changing their game plan and actually hitting up and prospecting Vespa dealers around the country to sell Genuine product. Last year when scooter sales were off the charts he would never have even thought of it.... not Phil. They are lowering their standards and trying to get anyone on board to sell their product now including the Chinese only junk dealers.

100% truth

...and you buy a Lamborghini if you are cool!

According to the VIN, my TMAX was made in Japan, not Taiwan. I don't know that there's a huge difference though.

Yamaha Zuma 125, C3, Zuma 50 and Vino are Taiwan.