Modern Vespa

Hello All.

Just cleaning my air filter for the first time, having a little issue:

All advice i've read is to remove the outer cover, then remove the two screws that hold the filter on and then lift off.

I have removed the outer cover to find only one screw holding the filter on (left screw). On removing that it seems the air filter is attached to the carb by means of some sort of spring loading. Is this normal? I don't want to pull hard on it before I find out if this is something to be expected.

Once out I plan to clean throroughly and drill the additional hole as per here:
http://vesporeanfaq.wikispaces.com/Drill+the+Airfilter

Scoot is standard T5 with Simonini pipe and B8ES plug, full engine rebuild about 1 year / 5000 miles ago, Mixture of commuting (6 miles) and longer rides (20-100 miles, approx twice a week). I find it takes 5 or 6 kicks to start each morning and the plug is black, ie. over rich. I am hoping that drilling out the filter will allow some more air in to solve this, perhaps with a little performance boost.

I have not investigated the jetting as of yet, but the scooter runs very well after it has been going for half a mile so I cannot imagine the jetting is far wrong. To be honest it is bloody quick in second and third - 20 to 50 in third is a riot! Top speed I have had is 70mph indicated, but my speedo cable has broken again so I can't prove it, maybe I can show you the SP30s instead

Thanks in advance,

James.

OK, well, you didn't remove the screw that screws the air filter to the carb ... you removed the idle mix screw. The air filter sits down on top of this, and has a hole to let it extend through...

but on either side of that should have been a screw to hold down the airfilter.

-Eric

I have consulted the Haynes and the online guides, so I have left the idle mix screw that pops through the airbox cover well alone (and kept the cover gromet safe). I am talking about the two screws that sit either side of this - the left was in place, the right was not present - and once the left is removed the air filter seems to be spring loaded to the base of the air box. I can pull it up 5mm or so but it won't come any further without what seems like undue pressure, and it returns into position like it is spring loaded. Not sure whats going on.

Kind regards,

James.

You have to remove the idle screw on a T5 carb to get the filter off. Mine is the same way. In other words all 3 screws on the filter come off.

Also change that plug to a B9ES. That's the correct plug for a T5 kitted or not.

Thanks Provastian,

That makes sense - i'll take the mixture screw off then. When replacing is 1 and 1/2 turns out the estimate correct amount?

Interesting that you say use a B9ES. When I bought the scoot it had a BR8ES in it, and I replaced it with a B8ES because I wanted a spare. Surely a B9ES will be even colder running on the short journeys that I do daily, and will foul more? Took it on a 35 mile round trip across central London today (N16 to SM4 and back!), and it was screaming, I have no qualms with the warm running performance, it is excellent and it starts first kick when warm. I just want the bike to start quickly after a good nights sleep - maybe this is unrealistic?

Kind regards,

james

why in the hell would you have to remove the idle screw to remove the air filter?? That's a TERRIBLE design.

Shit, i thought the GS / SS carb box was a poor design, ( having to remove the complete airbox in order to gain access to the carb and change the jets ) but that takes the cake.

After my scoot has a good nights sleep...in the morning, I always have to pull the choke out and it takes 2-3 kicks. After it's warmed up, it starts on 1st kick every time..this is a 2005 PX150 motor. If your scoot takes 2-3 kicks when cold to start then you really are ok.

12Hp from a 125 can't be that terrible a design )))

1 and 1/2 turns out should get you close. Is yours a Mk1 or a classic? If it's a Mk1 and the rev counter works aim for 1200 - 1300 RPM.

I've always had a 9 in mine and don't have troubles on short runs. An 8 might be fine but everything I've ever seen says B9ES for the T5.

That's the only thing I really like about the T5 is that motor...the rest is useless.

So my 5 or 6 kicks from properly cold is normal? That makes me feel better, I have not had recourse to the choke as it is (shitty) summer here.

When I look at my plug and it is black and covered in carbon is this something I should be worried about (i'd guessed so)? I have cleaned it before one evening and the next morning it started first kick - this led to my assumption that it is running over rich and sorting this would get me starting first kick in the morn. I have not done a plug chop because i'm lazy and the bike runs well ordinarily.

Bike is a 1996N T5 Classic in black, will get some photos soon.

Kind regards,
james

PS. I'm originally from Edinburgh, drank in the Port of Leith and I ken Franco Begbie.

I couldn't wrap my head around that when I first encountered it. Now I'm used to it, not that big a deal really.

It has to do with the air filter. The 24/24G carb has a different, longer idle screw. I think later air filters changed and you don't have to remove it.

Pull that choke out..I'm sure you can get it started in 2-3 kicks. Push it back in as soon as you hear the motor start to idle slightly higher.

as stated above, the idle speed screw needs to be removed as well as the two screws on the top of the air filter as all three connect the filter to the carb.

also, make sure you've got the right air filter and carb box top. the incorrect pieces won't flow properly and you'll more than likely get an over rich situation. so, start there before you start drilling holes.

for the type of riding that you're doing i think that a B8 is fine. if you find yourself doing alot of motorway work then i'd recommend a step up to a B9.

generally, these run pretty clean so you may want to check your jetting and carb settings again before you go drilling holes.

remember, it's better to find the cause rather than just treat the symptom.

best,
-greasy

I agree with greasy except personally i would run the B9 always.

As far as the jetting per your link. I would start with 4 up on the main jet (If doing the love heart mod) and work on 2 down pending on your plug reading.

The love heart mod has been around a long time and i favor it on stock and kitted scoots.

Take a picture of your scoot mate and share it 8)

Cheers

Air filter and carb box (+rubbers) all correct, apart from missing air filter screw).

The thing runs great once warm - reaches about 6000rpm when cold then hesitates, after 5 minutes it will rev till kingdom come and makes some racket doing it. I took this to be normal. It is certainly not sick - I just want to make morning starts as quick as possible and to maximise power. I may replace the Simonini with a left-hand JL at some point.

In the drilled air filter above you have removed the whole heart. This is a lot more extreme than I have previously seen. I was just going to (carefully) drill the left hand part of the heart. Would you recommend drilling the whole heart as shown in your photo. I figure the air filter is an easily replaceable part, so if everything goes bad it can be changed back to stock for minimal cost/effort.

Will clean the carb tomorrow and update.

All the best,

J.

JUST TO ADD CAUTION

THE SPRING ON THE T5 CARB IDLE SCREW WILL FALL OUT OF FILTER INTO THE THROTTLE BARREL IF NOT CAREFULL






i did this -------------------- once

Great advice,

Was half anticipating springs and washers flying everywhere. Wholly anticipating it now.

J

Mate, if you wish. I learned this wee trick (along with millions) back in the 80's from Norrie Kerr.

Do you need to do the whole heart? I don't think so. I don't think you need to just now either.

Get your scooter up and running nice first and then you can consider many tweeking options like this one.

You have a great model. T5 mk1 were and still are outstanding machines.

Cheers

+1 on this mod...worked great on my stock PX150 motor with Pinasco exhaust..all it took was an upjet as well and it woke my motor up from the dead.

i loosen the fixed screws first then gingerly loosen idle screw and remove filter.

"Do you need to do the whole heart? I don't think so. I don't think you need to just now either.

Get your scooter up and running nice first and then you can consider many tweeking options like this one."

The thing is the scoot is running nice, it has a broad power band from 10-33mph (16-55kph) in second and 20-50mph (30-80kph) in third. Maxes out at 65-70mph. Cannot complain about the way it runs other than it takes 5/6 kicks to start in the morning (no choke) and won't rev to 8/9000 rpm for the first mile or so - is that an indication it is not set up properly? I was thinking that a dirty air filter may mean it is running a little rich, and that cleaning and drilling (in tandem with Simonini) might free up a little more power.

It is unclear to me whether the condition of the cold plug can be read with any accuracy. Can you only tell how the engine is performing through a plug chop? I can only guess a chop at WOT with a warm engine will look fine, but i'll have to perform it to be sure. Can it become carbonated when sitting, or am I running over rich all the time? As I said, idle is smooth, and power delivery is potent (20-30mph in 2nd takes maybe 3 seconds, really rapid)

Thanks for all the advice; this is my first scooter and whilst I'm really enjoying it, I do not have a body of experience on which to draw in terms of maintenance. Am averaging about 600 miles a month since the start of June which is good for the soul! The engine seems very reliable (98RON fuel, Castrol TTS) and the performance earns you some funny looks when you overtake cars at 65mph on the motorway.

Will take pics tomorrow,

James.

James, a cold plug is unreliable as i am sure you know. Take your scooter for a 15 min run, find a nice open road, when all out and clear ahead cut the motor, stop and pull the plug.

Leave your air filter for now. Make sure you are running the correct jets, fuel air mixture screw. And if your passing cars on the motorway then B9 plug for you mate

How many miles do you have on your scoot? Have you decoked the top-end yet.

Cheers

Scoot has done 17900 miles by the odometer, although I am inclined to add at least 25% to that given the amount of times the speedo cable breaks!

I assume the main jet is standard (110?) as the engine had a new barrel/piston/head 1 year ago (5000 miles ago) and was set up at the time. I have not decoked it but I am guessing that this is probably due - is this an easy task?

Going past cars at 65 is not an everyday occurrence. It only sees motorways about once a week so i'd rather not compromise everyday urban performance. I have a B9ES in the toolbox so i'll give that a try,

[Forgot to mention - I pre-mix directly into the tank at 2% Castrol Fully synthetic TTS 2T oil]

All the best,

J

Have removed the filter - it is filthy, currently steeping in petrol.

In a turn up for the books it has already been drilled in the heart, left hand portion. I want to check the jetting now - do I just unscrew the main jet and remove? It wont split up into 3 pieces? Should I Clean the fuel filer while i'm here? Got a B9ES plug that i'll put in it tomorrow.

Kind regards,
James.

you shoul'nt have a fuel filter.

they tend to be restrictive and that carb can be thirsty.

check the tank for crud and fuel tap for crud.

then check float tank for sediment

clean tank-good tap-clean carb -happy motor

I agree with jimmy no fuel filter or did you mean air filter. Fuel filters are only good for fuel injected bikes IMO.

Your main jet stack can be a bear to separate. Though if you can't, pour some hot water into a cup and place it in for a few mins. This will help the brass contract and allow you to pull the (3) pieces apart easily.

Then blow off the water

Cheers

I have removed the air filter, cleaned throughly, drilled out the hole in the heart again - it was a rough looking 4mm hole so I have enlarged it to 6.5mm, away from the reinforcing and smoothed off the edges. I drilled upside town to stop any swarf going in and was meticulous about removing any fine particles before refitting.

I have removed the main jet and had a look at it - 120 top, BE4 mixer, 122 Main Jet. This seems to be way too big for the current set up. I replaced it as i have no other, put the filter and box back on and replaced the spark plug with a brand new B9ES. It took a fair few kicks and some playing about with the choke and idle screw for it to spring into life; from their I adjusted the idle screw with the choke off until it was as before (quite low and constant; T5 classic so no tacho).

I took it out for a ride and it was lovely, revved throughout the power band from the word go, seems smoother. Whilst out I felt the idle was actually a little high, so when I got home I adjusted the idle screw down and now its great! Very satisfying first proper Vespa spanner bending session.

I will look to get a couple of different main jets (116, 118?) and see how these go, I guess cleaning the stack will probably have positive effect as well. I will do a WOT plug chop one of these days and post the results; i'll try and get some pics up too.

All the best,

J.

PS. The fuel filter I was referring to was the little screen (inside the float), but I couldn't get a screwdriver that would take the float cover off without removing the carb so I haven't touched it.

1996 Vespa T5 Classic

J

oh you f--ker

that pic is like porn

excuse me for fifi second

Yup..the T5 Classic is $$$

Thanks for the pic

Nice scooter mate.

I would not down size on your 122 main. Seeing that you are running stock with a after market pipe

Make sure your fuel-air mixture screw is set right and go do that plug chop.

You might want to get some zippy or hoop tires too. Just a suggestion.

Cheers

Nice looking ride, I dig the black hubs