Modern Vespa

While installing the new Stebel in my BV250 I was looking for the best path to route my wiring. In the process I decided to remove the "shelf" (don't know the proper term) that I normally use to hold my tools. This piece looked like a later "add on". What is this tucked away in my pet carrier? There was also an extra coolant cap hiding in there. Is this the infamous evap system everyone always suggest disconnecting?

Yep...............that's the Evap system

Oh noooo...............

I'm not too familiar with the BV250 but I did have challenges with the evap hose and overflow hose. I ride a GT200 (2005).

Initally it was a big problem. BTW, I was warned to disconnect before it became and issue...I didn't take it seriously until I filled up and I believe the heat cause the fuel to expand and it got to be a hassle (hard starting) What prompted me hard starting and when I checked the little bubble caps attached to the air filter housing and saw some oil in the aft bubble and what appreared to be fuel in the fore bubble. Remove bubbles to drain and then thought I'd check my air filter...there fuel in the filter. Clean it...treated it and then went to disconnect both...evap tube and overflow hose. Seems O.K. now.

Hope this helps....

OK... so I'm a little confused. I've searched the site about removing the evap system. Now I have a few questions....

What are the pro's and cons of the evap system?
What do I need to do to remove the evap system?

From what I was able to find by searching I gather that I need to remove the two black hoses and plug the holes the black tubes connect to, and I'm supposed to leave the hole connected to the clear hose unplugged.

Is this correct?

I haven't had any problems with start up, except for the occasional burp where I need to start a second time.

I'd love to free up that "extra" space in the pet carrier, especially since I already have a tough enough time fitting my purse in there.

Sorry for double posting....

I read a little more about how the evap system works. After re-reading some I think I'll follow Skrapiron's suggestions in this thread-

evap canister on et4 part 2, now with pictures

1. There are no pros for keeping the Evap system. Sooner or later, it's likely to cause stalling, hard starting or the inability to start the scooter. There are no down sides to removing it.
2. Does your scooter have a carb or is it fuel injected?

A.) Find the line that is coming from the fuel overflow (from the top of the gas tank) and find a place where you can cut it and run it towards the ground so the tank can vent. If you don't have enough hose left to get the overflow near the ground, just add some hose with a hose extender connection. Secure it to something so it stays where you want it to be with wire ties.
B.) Find which hose is going from the evap system to your carb or throttle body. If you have a carb, you will cut this hose and leave several inches of hose towards the carb side. Some people put a small filter on the hose and some just leave it open. If you have fuel injection, do the same thing except plug the hose that is going to the throttle body with a plug or bolt. I have done four of these and I use a metal bolt that will fit tightly in the hose and put a clamp around it just to make sure it can't come out. Then, I wire-tie the 4-5 inches of hose that I just plugged to a nearby hose or cable in the area. After the hose from the gas tank has been dealt with and the hose going to the carb has been cut, there is nothing else that is connected to the engine or fuel tank so you can remove all that stuff and you will have more room under your seat.

Here's a thread with some pictures describing this on a GT200: ET/GT/LX: Hard Starting, Rough Idle, or Stalling

One of my scooters is a Piaggio BV500 and the Evap system was under the seat (like yours). After I removed all the Evap equipment, I plugged the holes that were left with large, black plastic plugs that I bought at the local auto parts store. I cut off the center section of the plugs because the holes were too big and put rtv silicone on the bottom of the plugs and covered the holes. I let them dry and bingo.............I had more storage.

Questions? Just post back here or PM me.

Here's a string of pics on what we did last week with my GT200.

Previously I had only posted a couple of pics to address the label warning and the overflow port in the filler neck.

The pics proper sequence may have to be viewed by scrolling down and then back up...don't know why...but you should be able to decipher.

There is also a pic on just the evap hose disconnect (to the carb)...has a short fuel hose with a piece of foam cable tied. Since my GT200 has a carburator...this configuration is recommended. From what I've gather in the above a fuel injector would not.

https://modernvespa.com/forum/topic50298?highlight=
(scroll down to the label pic and work your way up...sorry!)

The very last pic is the evap hose disconnect with foam filter.

Hope this helps!

Excellent! Thanks for the reply. I believe the bike is fuel injected. This may be a project for tomorrow. At least now I know which hose needs to go and what needs to stay.

I finally got my stebel installed & took lots of pics.... had most of my panels removed. The BV250 looks kinda cute naked The reason I was asking earlier was because I wasn't sure if I needed to have any panels removed to remove the evap system. Looks like it'll be easy to do by just removing the engine cover thing in the pet carrier. Then I'll have twice to storage space in my pet carrier! YAY!

I did this recently on my BV200. Not sure how much different a BV250 would be. Look at near the bottom of this post...

Another evap system question- BV Series

You'll need to take off the side panels to remove the brackets that used to hold the evap parts. I wouldn't want them grinding against a helmet!

Mike

I completely disconnected mine the other day. I still left the rollover valve and the charcol canister on the bike should I ever want to reconnect it. It would only take 5 minutes to put it back to stock. Kudos to all that helped. The one thing that I see as confusing to anyone that may be contimplating removing or disconnecting this system is the different names people apply to the different components so be careful. I've put over three hundred miles since the disconnect and have started the scooter cold, warm, whatever, and it starts perfectly under each circumstance. It runs markedly better all around. The low fuel warning light system now functions correctly again- once the light comes on the computer readout automatically switches to the reserve reading (BV200). It hasn't been doing this and it was probably due to the pressure in the gas tank. Long story short- this is the best thing you can do to your scooter. I didn't think the problem was going to affect my scooter- I had over 12K before any symptoms appeared. I really didn't see how the system affected the scoots performance until after I disconnected it. Wow! It runs smoother and pulls harder. I'm a happy buck-a-roo!!

Bob

Bob...agreed hence the reason I included pics...hopefully I did not confuse folks but I tried to ascertain the description out of of the GT200 Service Manaul as well as specifying that this was done on my GT200 / carburator.

Ditto. Taking care of it now rather than later...

Greetings all !

I have just shy of 56,000 miles on my BV200. All put on by me I was the original owner. As of the month or so, my bike has started dying at the lights. Basically either as I approach the light ( letting go of the throttle and breaking) or while sitting at the light.

It feels almost like someone just hit the kill switch. Is this the kind of symptom you are experiencing also ? I sure would appreciate some help figuring this out since my local shop seems unable to do much correctly..

Thanks in advance !

Mark
2003 BV 200..

Hi Mark!
Did you see this in the wiki section? Scooter Won't Start, Hard Starting, Rough Idle, or Stalling
Your stalling may be due to low idle speed, the evap system or possibly bad gas (water in the fuel).

Remove the gas cap after it stalls, or after a long run; If it's the evap system you'll find the gas tank 'hissing' because it's not properly venting (under pressure or vacuum).
For bad gas you can either siphon the gas tank or add some 'seafoam' gas treatment.


Here's the workshop manual's take on it (from the Vespa GT200L manual)

Off subject: is that an aerosol can? It gets mighty hot in the pet carrier. I had a can explode in my glovebox. Not a pretty sight and it scared the crap out of me.

It's a can of WD-40, I normally keep it in my glove box. It was just in the pet carrier while I was working on stuff.

Why disconnect the rollover valve from the tank overflow line?

I had the same problem with my BV500--after extended highway speed cruise it would stall and die at a light when I advanced the throttle. Using the procedure XLR8 outlined above, I removed the evaporate system and it runs like a dream now. I've had my GTS250 about a year longer and never had this problem (knocking on wood).

I was lectured that I cannot say the evap system should not be removed or disabled, but I disagree with your assessment.

The evap system is installed to prevent toxic gasoline fumes to get into the air that we breathe. If I remember correctly, these fumes are carcinogenic (that means, they can cause cancer). It is up to everyone to disregard that or not, but it appears there is at least one good reason to keep it intact.

Regarding your other comment of it to cause stalling, hard starting or inability to start sooner or later, I am still waiting for that to happen, 30,000 miles and my share of overfills into it.

I do have to say, though, that my system may be leaking somewhere lately and be the cause of gasoline fumes coming from the scooter after a ride. I cannot confirm, though, that it is indeed coming from the evap system. I will check into it soon to fix what needs to be fixed. Intoxic air is better.

While fixing another problem I had some of the tupperware off of my MP3 and decided to remove the evap and roll over. I posted some pics here Since I already have it apart...evap canister gone (not much in the way of explanation but I plan to use them in a wiki when I get around to it)

I did it primarily to relieve negative pressure in my gas tank and to remove the possibility of the system causing problems in the future since it is an add on system and not part of the original bike design. Oh and because I was there anyway.

Windbreaker: The problems with the Evap system are well documented. If you haven't had any, good for you. I have...........and so have many other people who have posted on the forum and when they removed it, it solved their problem. Do as you choose but don't attempt to tell those of us who have experienced problems with the worthless Evap system that it's all in our heads and that we're somehow imagining these problems. Preaching to people who have been stranded by the failure of the Evap system to function properly about the evils of the tiny amount of gas fumes that may be released into the atmosphere is laughable.

Whether you love (anyone?) or hate Vespa's evap system, there are reasons for it:

http://technologyinterface.nmsu.edu/5_1/5_1e/5_1e.html  

Let's not think that it's totally a one-sided argument.

Harvey, I have no quarrel with anyone that there was a good reason for Vespa to install the Evap system. My argument is that it is well documented that it can cause problems and since they have done nothing to correct the documented problems, I don't want it on my scooters. BMW has a long history of having similar problems with their Evap canister systems and many a BMW rider has removed the system from their bikes.
Arno (Windbreaker) seems to be on a tear lately about preaching to people who don't share his tree-hugging ways and he needs to understand that just because something hasn't affected his scooter doesn't mean that it hasn't affected plenty of others. BTW: The system probably wouldn't have even been on any of the Piaggio scooters if it weren't for the CA Air Resources Board and Piaggio didn't want to build one model for CA and another for the rest of the country. The Evap system (as you know) is not on the European models and they do not have the problems that have been reported here, over and over again, with the Evap system. That's all I meant to convey.

Jack, no disagreement from me on the the perils and virtues the the evap system!

A read of past MV posts shows a number of examples of rough starting or running problems solved by disconnecting the evap system. It also shows many examples where a problem of this type has not been cured by disconnecting the evap system and another cause is later found and remedied. It seems to me that the evap system is the all purpose boogie man for many fuel and electrical problems. Sure, it is easy enough to disconnect a hose and see if a particular problem disappears - just don't be surprised if it doesn't.

Good point Dooglas, but if you are having these problems one of the first systems you may want to rule out is the evap system which requires disconnecting it and plugging the intake hose so I am of the mind that you may as well remove it and cut out a step the next time you are troubleshooting. I wouldn't say just remove it if you are not having problems but if you are or are in the neighborhood doing something else why not? It's probably gonna happen one day.

wiki i just did for mp3 evap removal. probably needs some work though. MP3 250: Removal of the evap canister and roll over valve

I know this is an old thread.

It's worth asking though why if eventually the evap system causes problems, why not replace it with a new one when the time comes.

To repeat (ad nauseam) - the rest of the world does very well without it - and the rest of the world loses less fumes due to spilled fuel than CA does.

It is a Very Daft System for these machines.

If it gives trouble, remove it.

Yeah, I don't find that response satisfying.

I lived in California (only recently moved away) and if I were to return (possible!) that evap system will need to be there, so unless one plans to bribe the emissions testing facilities, seems like that system needs to be there. That's my understanding.

Teabow, you miss the point. It isn't that the evap system in the Piaggio machines go bad; it's that they are a terrible, horrible design in the first place. You can't replace a bad one with a good one. There is no such thing as a good one. It not only causes many problems for many owners, but it doesn't actually stop gasoline from entering the atmosphere and is ultimately self-defeating, like a lot of the California CARB-inspired, well-meaning but poorly implemented contrivances out there.

>unless one plans to bribe the emissions testing

Actually, the evap can does not affect your emissions, at least not directly. It's there to keep overflowing gasoline from your gas tank from vaporizing into the ozone layer by sucking the fumes from that spill back into the engine. Which is a neat idea if it works - and on many vehicles, it does...just not on a Piaggio. So an inspector would have to be specifically looking for it to even catch that it wasn't there, it has no impact on the chemicals coming OUT of the engine at all.

You yank it out (plenty of threads on that including one by me), keep the canister in your garage, and if you ever need it again for sale or inspection it's a five minute job to put it right back in. All you lose is the air compressor or lunch box or whatever it is you had been using that reclaimed space for.

I don't find this line of inquiry particularly satisfying either. We've been over this topic so many times that it has exceeded the wooden vespa level of monotony.

If the evap system was required in more places in the world, Piaggio might actually design it in such a way that it is reliable and works the way it's supposed to. But they tacked it on as an afterthought in order to comply with (stupid) government mandates, in one state, in a country that makes up a fairly small percentage of their sales. Why would they give it more than a passing nod, given how few bikes they sell?

Do whatever you want, and leave the rest of us out of it.

Jess, sorry to bore you with the line of inquiry but being a newbie does mean the institutional memory isn't something I'm privvy to. So are newbies not supposed to ask questions about stuff that you've come to a conclusion?

I have no personal opinion on whether to keep or take away the evap system, only that I don't want the scooter to not pass the CA emissions test if/when I relocate.

I hear that some say the Piaggio evap system doesn't work well. Yet, we have people here who ride with the evap system for thousands of miles until the evap system doesn't work, or perhaps it keeps working as some other posts suggest. That's why I originally thought why not replace the no longer working evap system with a new one that works. That's all. I'm not challenging your or anyone's views about the necessity or efficacy of the system.

Touchy, touchy, alas.

what you could do is use the search function and read all ALL the posts and come up with your own conclusion to replace or discard.

You asked. Jim told you. Then there was this: Copping an attitude with the moderators is something that I just will not tolerate. So here's how it's going to be:

1) You're going to apologize to Jim.
2) You're going to do a search for "evap" and read the substantial body of information on this site about it.
3) If you have follow-up questions, you're going to ask them in a polite and respectful manner in a non-antagonistic way. I think you might have failed to grasp an important points that Jim already covered in this thread which you willfully ignored. To which I will add an additional point:

1) The evap system does not affect in any way what comes out of the tailpipe
2) Motorcycles (which includes scooters) are not currently subject to emissions testing in California.

Got it?

Others have covered what the 'evap' system theoretically does. You've noted that some people go thousand of miles with it in. I'm one of them. I put 12k miles on my BV500 before I had a problem.

When I finally had the problem, it was almost fatal. That, it a serious problem, and it truly is a half ass design that *will* eventually cause a vapor lock condition in the fuel system that *will* cause strange fuel related problems. In my case, that problem damn near got me killed.

Middle of July, I rode from Atlanta to Destin, FL. About 400 miles. Temps hovering around 102F for most of the trip. About 200 miles of that is slab at 75 mph. The trip down went fine, if a little hot. Spent a couple of days lounging on the beach, then headed home. Temps hitting 110 through southern Alabama, I filled up the tank before I left. When I stopped for my second stop of the day, just before the last 120 miles of the trip (all slab), I had my first symptom, though I didn't identify it immediately. Coming off the throttle and rolling to a stop at a light, the engine died as it tried to idle.

Restart, head into the gas station, refill, empty the bladder, drink a water, eat a banana, and head back out. It takes a few extra button presses, and it starts, so I'm off. As the fuel expands in the heat, the 'evap' system reaches capacity and starts creating back pressure. About 45 minutes later, I'm cruising I-85 at about 75/80 moving with traffic when the bike stalls, at speed, in traffic. It won't restart until the key is turned off and back on, which really isn't something you should be doing coasting along in traffic. So with no power, I am trying to work my way from the middle lane to the shoulder to figure out WTF is going on.

Pull off, open the fuel cover, unscrew the fuel cap, and it literally pops 4-5 feet into the air when it is released enough for the pressure to push it. Let it cool, nurse the thing the rest of the way home, and rip out the Evap system the next day.

I would argue that the evap system isn't broken, it's a safety hazard and should be removed for rider safety, and replacing a 'bad one' with a replacement of the same design borders on malicious and murderous.

the biggest reason is costs and what will it get you but more troubles later down the road or even while your on the roads. by removing it you remove potential and possibly hazardous issues like stalling while traveling 60-70 mph.

Well, you could leave it and wait until you have a problem with it- That's what I did and it's still farting away at the end of my rides.
Or
Disconnect it and reconnect it once you move back.
Or
Replace it at about $175

You pick it's a free country!

I'm still waiting for an apology to Jim.

When did california start emissions testing mortorcycle?

They don't, though there's been some rumor of emissions testing on motorcycles with engines greater than 278cc (or something -- can't remember). Not sure if that ever came to be or not.

I read this yesterday and it's been nagging at me since then. I don't have any of that in my pet carrier on my 07 BV 250. Not even holes that would be where that was fastened if it had been removed. I got mine brand new in 07.

Or is it something that I'm not getting when I look at the picture? Which probably wouldn't surprise me either.

Oh wait there has been something removed. So it's actually under the pet carrier. See I told you it could be something I'm not getting. Now I can get some sleep again.

I'm glad that's behind me. (no pun intended)