Modern Vespa

I'm having problem identifying this part, we call it "micro", it is local brand made part called Vesgio there is writing on it Micro Device something...
is it CDI box? or Ignition Box?
what is it and what does it do?
and how does it works?



where is it in this diagram?
http://www.vespamaintenance.com/elec/cdiwork/index.html#top

and what does coil do?

confuse, is CDI, is just 1 part or consist of multiple parts?

Thanks!

i told its a stupid questions

I almost spilled my coffee when I saw the drawings on the photo Sorry, can't help there as I'm mechanically-challenged but I'm sure someone will come along and sort things out for ya!

hahaha maybe its a stupid questions but its entertaining
Glad you're entertained

those are your flux capacitors

they generate thrust

you need them to leave the planet robby, everybody knows that

talk to the rpg and dnd guys

they understand these parts

also the steampunk guys, but they only know how to gluegun them to clothes

Nice Jimmy!

jimmy, the flux capacitor is useless in all but the most highly kitted scooters. remember 88mph. and on top of that, a 6v or even a 12v conversion is unlikely to produce 1.21 jiggawatts.

Hm good point

ok... so, you're running a setup like a lot of Stella / bajaj engines where the CDI is in 2 piece.

Over here, we're more used to the Italian Ducati style CDI :



The Ducati CDI is both the HT coil AND the circuity section in one convenient little piece. If you've got one of these, it's all you need.

You're running the 2-piece LML / Bajaj CDI setup...



So, there's an EXTERNAL HT coil ( 2 are pictured in this above diagram )... and then there's a separate CDI box that contains the circuitry that triggers the spark. ( shown as the little black box in the picture)

I don't know what the little red one is - it's not applicable in this case.


So, IF YOU HAVE ELECTRONIC IGNITION, you have one of the two styles of CDI noted above.


For the rest of you ,having an HT coil hanging off the back of your bike doesn't necesarily mean you have electronic ignition. Hell, my SS180 has a big bakelight HT coil hanging off the back.... i'm straight up points ignition.


You need to look at what's triggering your HT coil to see whether you're points or electronic ignition. If you see points on the stator, then you're points ignition.



If you see a black box ( hall sensor ) then you're electronic. Etc.

Eric's wrong. It's your rotor flange. It gyroscopically adjusts your turning radius. Also, while you've got the cover off, don't forget to fill your blinker fluid.

hihi

Robby have electronic ignition... you have PX200 with electric start (with excel frame) and yes Robby if you remove the flywheel you can see stator like above
and the black box we called it pick up... and the box above the flywheel called Elecronic Ignition Device or micro which creates a high voltage charge to the spark plug
robby you have AC spuls/coils produce alternating current some of which is routed to the CDI unit while the rest goes to the regulator or rectifier on battery bikes. AC power to the CDI is transformed into DC power and then is stored in a capacitor inside the CDI unit. A capacitor works as a reservoir for DC power during a single engine revolution and can be released and turned into a high voltage charge by the CDI, when triggered by the pick-up... am I right?
CMIIW

hows the wife and little one robby

did you go to that huge rally that ebeth and nino went to?????

very cool crowd 8)

huge

hahaha really funny jimmy THX Eric you are helpful as usual .
I havent remove the flywheel but i almost sure that its electronic
well at least the previous owner said so . THX nino! yes Im almost sure its electronic
ok nino you are saying that micro/electronic Ignition Device and CDI unit is a 2 different thing, is it?

while Eric say Micro is a CDI box? we're good jimmy thx
no i didnt go to the rally lots things to do

OK! when I say CDI I mean Capacitor Discharge Ignition, Each manufacturer has their own design and way of thinking. however, they all seem to have those four parts. Trigger coil, source coil, black box, and ign coil. Usually, they give you specs on the trigger unit, source coil, and ignition coil. Sometimes, they give specs on the CDI box too...

ohh yes yes i see now, so CDI are not a parts, its a system that consist Trigger coil, source coil, black box, and ign coil, OR as eric mention its consist of EXTERNAL HT coil, separate CDI box, and hall sensor

right?

hmmm
even Point ignition need HT coil... and hall sensor same as Trigger coil or pick-up coil

i meant if the CDI system uses a hall sensor as a trigger instead of point ignition, its what differentiate CDI system (electronic) to the Point Ignition ( did i get this right?)

eric, when you say point ignition, do you mean its Contact or platina?
nino, is trigger coil or pick up coil is platina?

sorry maybe most of you guys, find this to be unsignificant , but Im really trying to learn how this vespa thing works and to do that I need to understand what MV geniuses like eric and nino talking about
cuz so many diferent terms we use for a single part, this is the confusing parts

THX

Rob...
I make it simple
point ignition need contact breaker (we called platina)


electronic ignition need pickup (black one below)

Yeah, ...one of the core differences being that on a points ( platina to you, i guess ) bike, there's a spring loaded mechanical setup that triggers the spark. At all times, the flywheel is rubbing on the armature of the points, the points are arcing spark between them ( which eventually corrode down )... and the whole system requires adjustment and setting, in addition to the maintenance of occasionally changing out the points.

On an electronic igntion setup, it's all magnets. That black box is called a "hall sensor" ..picking up the "hall effect" of the flywheel magnet, by sensing the exact second where the magnet on the flywheel changes polarity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect_sensor


As such, there's never any metal-on-metal rubbing ...or arcing between the points...or anything that requires adjustment or cleaning or anything other than the initial timing setting. Magnets that never touch eachother or rub, determine when the spark is fired.


It's a better system, because it just works. The typical thing that goes bad on an electronic ignition setup is that the CDI will occasionally go bad. However, there's plenty of original P200's running around with the stock CDI on it. It's the newer ones that seem to be of crappy manufacture.

Just a comment on the electronic stator. I noticed the timing marks off a bit with a new mark inked on. I found this on mine but without the inked mark and was wondering if this was normal because I've read that the mark on the case is where it's supposed to line up.

i *think* that if you're using the original top end, and the stock timing, and the stock Electronic ignition kit... then the lines in the castings are supposed to line up for the proper timing.

HOWEVER

doing something like putting on a different top end could alter your timing and render those marks irrelevant. Notice that he's only off by a degree or two from the stock timing. On lambrettas, 1mm = 1 degree.

When I had a soft seize followed by a whole blown in the piston I found the mark to be off and thought that this was probably the reason. There wasn't any air leak and the carb was adjusted right on. Now that I've replaced the piston and cylinder and re-adjusted the stator, it runs great other than the smoke.

but I more like point ignition... cheaper and easy to install especially when we're on the road no need solder just screw it. no need to headache to diagnose if there is a fault in the CDI or pick-up
agreed with newer ones crap!

ok! thx a lot eric, nino and all ! i think i got it now you guys rocks!
altought I prefer jimmy's explanation

No 1 set course to klingon galaxy, warp 2 engage!

So... in my first few years of doing vintage scooters, the first thing i would always do would be put in either a P-series engine, or do an electronic ignition conversion.... because i thought points to be inherently bad, and fault-prone.

The combination of two events have led me to change my mind.

1) When i got my first lambretta, i began ordering parts from Casa Lambretta. At the time, Alex... the owner... was still answering the phone and taking part orders. I would get into these long conversations with him where he turned my ideas about wrenching on scooters upside down. I had always considered the things that were original on these bikes as junky, and needing modernized. Wanting to put disc / hydraulic brakes on everything...electronic /12v... bitubo suspension... top end kits ..etc.

Casa doesn't sell any of that stuff. They sell no performance parts. Alex really had the mentality that these things were perfect as they were... and that ultimately people go swapping out things to treat a problem, rather than solving the problem correctly. For example - you've got misadjusted points, or your bike is improperly timed...or you have a faulty HT coil, or lighting coils, ... so you put in electronic ignition because it's easier than fixing the problem you have with your existing points / 6v system.

A drum brake is perfectly fine, if it's adjusted and maintained properly. 6v lights can be REALLY BRIGHT if you have good magnetism, proper wiring and grounds, etc.

The bike was better thought out than you THINK it was... and it could be that you just need to adjust your perspective. It takes a BETTER mechanic to keep something that was original going strong, rather than slapping a new part on whenever the old one goes bad.

2) The acquisition of my GS and SS ...and restoration ... because there ARE no performance parts for them... there's no electronic ignition kit, etc. You are FORCED to make the original stuff work ( and really, you should rock the stock stuff anyways, to keep the value strong ).

good point Eric!
maybe I'm like Alex whose thinking simple and that these things were perfect as they were

I just came across this old post and found it very interesting. M VBX1T has the two piece electronic ignition and it is all pretty dodgy. I would like to replace the whole setup so my question is:- Can I fit the Ducati CDI unit with built in coil? Is the hall sensor the same for both setups and is the coil the same as the one you fit with the points still fitted. I'm just trying to get my head around what is the best way to get a reliable spark.

And another pic

If you are still trying to work out if you are running points or electronic ignition the simple tell is the window on your flywheel. No window, no points.

Kyvelis, it's an Indonesian P150s. It's electronic, but they use their own kind of CDI, separate H.T. coil and stator...

Yep, I figured that out, but the quick way is, has the fly got a window to set the points? No digging to identify what ignition setup you have. Just an observation.

not 100% true however.

many early electronic flywheels have windows to set the ignition timing. and some points ones don't appear to have them until you take the flywheels apart.

nice, so if its got a window it maybe, maybe isn't electronic. but no window means its electronic ignition for definite?

Thanks guys but I have had the flywheel off and it is definitely electronic. I am hoping to update and was wondering if the Ducati CDI with built in coil will fit and is the hall sensor and flywheel the same for both. Also if I use the same setup is this coil the same as what is used on the engines that uses a points setup. I hope this makes sense. Cheers Coops

well, yes and no. some of the early points flywheels have a rotor that holds the magnents, and a fan that bolts on. the fan doesn't have a window and unless you're familiar wit hit you might think it's a one-piece flywheel.

nonetheless, there are other, better ways to tell if a bike has points or not than a blanket rule covering the appearance of the flywheel.

I don't have points!

First, I think we should definitely confirm whether or not you have points.



You can fit a Ducati system but you'll have to pretty much start from scratch... new flywheel & stator, plus CDI. If you're buying new, then it adds up to not a whole lot less than a Vespatronic or similar - a lighter weight flywheel, modern stator with variable ignition timing. Very good quality stuff.
Or you might have a look at the facebook groups to see if someone has something for sale. Have a look for Vespa Australia Buy Swap Sell.

yeh, probably could buy a ducati setup off someone that has gone vespatronic etc