Modern Vespa

BWHAHAHAAHAAH good one

actually though, that is probably a good idea. you could have all the crashes in one spot and track how they happened, how gear worked out, etc. i'm not kidding.

Just because you "haven't crashed" doesn't make you a "better rider". There are plenty of road users who are responsible for causing crashes despite not bending whatever they are getting around on (or in).

My 2c

Wil

BARF (Bay Area Riders Forum) has just such a thing, except it's called Crash Analysis: http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=94

Adventure Rider has one too, it's called "Faceplant."

the idea has been discussed but no plans to implement it in the immediate future... though if we do, i think a less graphic title than 'faceplant' might be a good idea, given the number of new riders we have on MV.

It is precisely because there are so many new riders that it should be graphic as can be - so it reiterates the damned things are dangerous and you can die and they aren't a toy, even if you have all the approved Boutique safety gear and reflective stickers.

how about ...... Oops

i think it's possible to make new riders aware of all of the above without being blood-curdlingly graphic and putting them off riding forever.

saw a crash today .............. was very bad .... car pulled out of a side street into the path of a biker and he had nowhere to go....... hit the bonet and flew 30' down the road...... poor fucker he was on his back on the path and the car was written off ... i was down the road when it happened and a guy who worked in the unit next to the accident called the services i couldnt go near he wa s chatting when he was put in the ambulance so hopefully hell be back on the road soon

luckily he was all armoured up with full face lid

[quote="genie"] If someone refuses to ride again because something is graphic do they really need to be riding in the first place?

Riding a 2-wheeled vehicle is inherently dangerous, more so than driving a car and new riders need that drilled in their heads so they pay attention rather than being concerned over whether they have the right chaps or whether their cell phone ring will beep like their Vespa loud enough for them to answer it on a group ride so they can snap a photo while in line and giggle "Hi!"


I don't recall anyone being put off driving when they used to show the graphic "Blood in the Streets" driver's education videos.

I think one will find that most safety studies show that blood and gore do not result in safer operators. Rather, it panders to more puerile interests and is counter productive in the long run.

Not that my 25 years in the aviation and vehicle safety business is of any value.

Al

i'm not sure i see the link. are you saying that only people who can stomach pictures of death and dismemberment without getting upset by them should be riding? if that's the case, shouldn't the same rules apply to driving a car?

My point is that many (most?) of the new Vespa riders (and by new, I don't mean just to Vespas, but to two-wheeled vehicles) treat their Vespas as toys, as cute play objects to fart around on around town, and maybe attend a few rallies here and there. Granted that's not ALL new riders (and I'm removing those who grew up on other 2-wheeled motor vehicles, whether dirtbikes or motorcycles).

You see it with the flip flops (and also on "new" Sport Bike riders - the 18 year olds who get credit and go buy a GIxxer, but we aren't on a SB forum) and shorts or, if they do get gear it's crap and open faced helmets and nonsense.

Now Aviator seems to think that graphic pictures don't do any good. I disagree, but he's the safety dude. I know that graphic images usually reiterate that you can get your face removed if you aren't careful.

But then I remember MV is a kinder, gentler forum so my opinion is moot.

i'm not arguing that graphic pictures don't do any good - i saw those driver ed films when i was 16 and it cured me forever of my habit of riding on the roof of my mate's car at 90mph. i just don't believe they are necessary.

i think we are actually arguing the same point here, but as an MV moderator, i'm arguing it from a kinder, gentler place, and i'd prefer to instill new riders with a healthy respect for the dangers of riding, rather than putting them in a state of outright fear.

but this is all totally moot as the idea of a crash/oopsie/gorefest subforum isn't on the table at present. for the record, i don't think it's a bad idea.

1. I would take issue with your overly generalized description of new riders. It would seem that it bothers you that they exist, and by your oft stated comments to that effect, you insure that the attitude is mutual. They are probably too courteous to express it. More credit to them, in my book.

2. I am not "the" safety dude, but definitely "a" safety specialist. Emphasizing the "danger" of vehicle operation has the effect of making many who seek danger specifically operate the vehicle in a dangerous manner, causes many to become complacent in the face of this perceived inevitable "danger", and does little to cultivate an attitude of respect for safe operating procedures. The studies of fatal PTW mishaps find that the PTW rider tends to be the major contributor to the mishap that caused his or her demise. I refer to fatal mishap studies as they are the most rigorously investigated, and approach 100% reporting and investigation rates. In short, riders are dangerous, and not just new riders or young riders.

3. Mishaps are not inevitable. Mishaps are caused. Lower the frequency of the causative behavior and you have fewer mishaps. Since the bulk of the causative factors in PTW mishaps, regardless of experience level, are within the rider's control, again, it is the rider who is dangerous, not just the type of vehicle. Glorifying the supposed inherent "danger" of PTW riding distracts from the underlying objective of safety - more appropriate rider behavior.

I read a fellow's posting on a motorcycle board sharing his "lessons learned" from a couple of recent mishaps. In short, his mishaps were from taking turns in excess of the posted speed limit before he had "gained the skill to do so". Experienced riders cheered him on, assuring him that with practice, he will become "one of the boys" and be able to speed without getting thrown off his bike. My first question would be, "What is gained by intentionally speeding through a turn, other than entertainment?" If we showed him a picture of a newby, all gored to bit from taking a turn at excessive speed "before he was ready for it", do we increase safe behavior, or simply delay his attempt of the basically unnecessary maneuver for a while? Study after study links excess speed to fatal PTW mishaps. This is just stupidity.

My comments have nothing to do with MV being a "kinder, gentler forum". They have to do with safety, and experience in promoting same. That said, however, I do come to MV because I prefer civility over vulgarity, and a few thousand others seem to do the same.

Be well

Al

+100

Well if you aren't going to actually pay attention to the words I say, instead going with your summation of what you think, there's no need to have the discussion is there?

I mean I specifically stated I was not talking about ALL new riders didn't I? And I also categorized those new riders who went to the other extreme and bought sport bikes instead of Vespas.

I never said the vehicle was dangerous. I stated that it's the "new" rider who is dangerous, regardless of their mode of two-wheeled transportation.

Depends on what "excess" speed is, doesn't it? If the speed limit on a deserted road with no one around for miles is 55, is 56 excessive? 60? 70? What is excessive? Anything over a posted speed limit which, in actuality, has very little to do with anything and is just a feel-good committee sponsored measure?

Am sure you know that the rule of thumb for most corners (in the US) is that you can safely take them at double the posted speed - seems to have been the case in every corner I've ever taken, so does that mean that more than double the posted speed is unsafe? Or, again, 3 mph over the posted limit is unsafe? And I'm not talking about dragging knees either.

There are a few thousand others on the BBS, too, so that point really doesn't go anywhere.

Seeing that this thread festers still....

It would be interesting to know the crashes per miles on each type of scooter, of each length of experience, and or each area, and road condition.

Yes, you can infer from the the criteria I have chosen that I believe that inexperienced riders will crash more often, more often in congested areas with bad road conditions. Generally, I would guess that the scooter that gets ridden the most--crashes the most. Unless I am wrong, I think that most of the accidents happen outside the garage.

[Being cynical, I wonder if those people who receive their scooters crash more often, because they have less invested, and place a low Dollar/Euro value on their body, which is probably the same formula I would guess the vintage people are using, yet, are not the modern's getting the miles? They're faster too.]

Race ya

Brenda-

Until very recently, no efforts were made in the US to determine PTW mishaps exposure rates (mishaps/100,00 miles), most likely because PTWs were primarily recreational vehicles, and estimating annual driving totals was considered too difficult. Further, "recreational use" vehicles tend to be operated under different circumstances and in different environments than daily ride vehicles.

You might find this report on fatalities in WA interesting, as 93% of the fatal mishaps occurred on dry roads, and 67% in daylight. In short, environmental causative factors are minimal, and rider behavior was dominant in mishap causation. Only 18% of the mishaps investigated were found to involve no rider error contributing to the mishap causation!

As I posted previously, I tend to point to fatal mishap statistics because they are the most rigorously investigated and documented, and have a virtually 100% reporting rate. I would venture to guess that many PTW mishaps that do not involve serious injury, a second vehicle or damage to property, particularly of others, go unreported. I doubt the young fellow I spoke of above formally reported any of the four times he was "thrown off my bike" on public roads. However, in a social discussion group, such as MV, there may very well be a propensity, as others have suggested, to offer up mishap experiences, much as might be done in a local cafe over a souma or two. Once such posts become the "norm", they will become regular fare, and thus the issue that was put on the table by chad in the first place.

Guessing that "the scooter that gets ridden most crashes most" suggests that mishaps are inevitable and cannot generally be prevented. Since many studies find that factors well within the rider's control account for 50% or more of PTW mishaps, it would be reasonable to think that the greatest risk is "normal" rider behavior, such as alcohol impairment, speeding, inattention and lane errors. None of these are significantly experience dependent. Convince riders to avoid what has been "normal", and of very high risk, and mishaps will be reduced, even if they ride more often.

Law enforcement agencies do not generally collect experience level information when investigating mishaps. Thus one can only speculate about the relationship between riding experience levels and mishap rates. Further, as we often quipped in military aviation, there is a big difference between 5 years' flying experience and one year's experience repeated five times.

Al

Have you ever worked with or on one of those "feel good committees" that set speed limits? You might be surprised to learn that there are actual physical criteria used by traffic engineers. Here's what one state has to say about establishing advisory speed limits on curves. No mention of a committee of any type, unless I missed something. Do the math and check it against your "rule of thumb".

As to my comment about civility and vulgarity, it was not in comparison to any other site, but in terms of MV's normative behavior in general. I'm sure there are many people who prefer vulgarity to civility. Where they congregate was never an issue in my post. I was simply stating that "kinder, gentler" has no bearing on the underlying facts. Vulgar people probably suffer mishaps when riding at excessive speed as often as civil people. How we discuss and present mishap prevention is the civility to which I was referring.

Be well

Al

if I followed the advised speed limits in curves I'd fall asleep

Please die, thread

Hahahahahahaha.

Nice.