Modern Vespa

Short trips here too. I live in a city that's 2 miles wide at the widest point and 6 miles long. I don't get enough miles in to max out oil change mileage so it's once a year oil changes and winter storage.

What did you do for the air filter oil?

Heck,, once I went to the store and bought 4 liters of synthetic scooter oil and 4 liters of tiquela. After drinking one bottle of tiquela I got the two mixed up and drank a bottle of oil and put the tequila in my Chinese scoot.
Boy did that scoot go, like it was supercharged.

Hi all,

Apologies for reviving this thread 6 years later, but just wanted to verify a couple of things about this oil:

Has the formulation changed at all? It's now branded as "Heavy duty diesel engine oil" instead of "Heavy duty engine oil". I know that it's always been spec'd as diesel oil, just wondering with the name change if it's changed at all in anyway that it does not make it an excellent oil for my GT 200.

here is amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Rotella-550019921-Synthetic-Diesel-Engine/dp/B005CHT4W6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435809829&sr=8-1&keywords=rotella+t6+5w-40+synthetic


I've been using the ultra-expensive Agip, and now looking to economize.

Just double checking,

thanks!

Comparisons

Thanks for the technical details tortoise.. but unless I have older data as well, how would I be able to surmise a change in formulation that dictates it's no longer an applicable oil for my scoot?

It's fine. If it's OK for diesels it's certainly OK for our engines! Plus it not only meets but exceeds the specs that Piaggio set for our bikes. It's what I use in the US. I also use the Halfords diesel equivalent in the UK.

I have used it for years. Never had any issues.

7 years and still using it and will continue to dos so.

Thanks for the reassurance everyone!

I had precisely the same question (have a new BMR R1200GS which also uses 5w-40). My concern was that sometimes this oil is labeled as auto motor oil (e.g. Walmart) and other places label it Diesel Oil (most local parts stores). (I am referring specifically to Shell Rotella T6 Full Synthetic 5w-40).

I called Shell technical division last Monday, and was told all T6 oil is exactly the same. Apparently some of the larger distributors label it auto vs diesel because it confuses consumers (like me). This oil is certified for both auto and diesel.

You just had to look at the label to know that.
There are two basic specs on the bottle, SN and CJ 4.
"S" stands for Spark fired
"C" stand for compression fired.
So you can look at any oil bottle and tell right away if it is designed to work in a diesel or gas motor.

Now in your BMW you have wet clutches don't you? If yes you need to get a motorcycle specific oil.

8yrs and 39,000 miles and my LX is still going strong

[quote="WEB-Tech"] Yup, T6 is perfect.

thank you Greg.. that's exactly the response I was looking for.

My next question would be this:

Is there any advantage in using the Rotella over my last liter of factory standard Agip for this reason:?

After I started riding regularly in the April, I noticed a high frequency grinding/vibration at hwy speeds. I had never had the valve lash adjusted (had the dealer do it) so reading threads that seemed like a likely cause of vibration. Dealer did it, still the same problem.. he said it's just because my "engine is old" (I have 20k) on the clock. He said he topped off the oil and that helped a bit. With the problem still there I assumed it must be CVT related.. Since I had 6k on the belt, and I do mostly hwy, I figured change that out before it snaps.. so I asked the dealer again to replace that and look for anything funny.. $500 later I basically have a new transmission, but the vibration problem was still there. Last weekend I checked the oil it was past "max" and smelled of gas and much less viscous. I then tested the fuel tap, and sure enough, it was draining into the carb. I replaced the tap and changed the oil myself (I was pissed that the dealer did not see this) and now there is significantly less vibration. I used stock Agip oil and did not replace the filter (filter only had 500 miles on it). I'm wondering given the abuse of 400 miles of less than optimum oil in it.. would it make sense to change the oil again (and filter) and this time with the Rotella (over the Agip)? Could the shell oil help out the bearings a bit more? I assume this would help with getting out the last of the contaminated oil as well.

thanks!

I'm using the Mobil 1 mine calls for 15W50. I don't see any real difference in the oil.

The oil and filter is cheap enough I would change it for piece of mind. Every time you get on it hard it will lay in the back of your mind.

John

Well Piaggio sees enough of a difference they will void a warranty for using Mobil 1 and not for using Mobil Turbo Diesel

Just curious if you have any "documented" cases of this? The reason i ask is I hear wives tales of this sort of stud all the time, but they are usually a story someones bother's sister's friend heard. Not at all saying what Piaggio will or won't try to do, just curious.

Hear this all the time on the Harley forums

According to the manual is says:

Engine oil
SAE 5W-40, API SL, ACEA A3, JASO MA Synthetic oil

As long as the oil meets these standards it will conform to the warranty. Note that regular Mobil 1 does not meet JASO MA specs. You would need to use Mobil 1 Racing 4T oil.
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAUSENPVLMOMobil_1_Motorcycle_Oils.aspx

Also, Shell Rotella is not JASO MA certified.

Here is a list of JASO MA certified oils. - http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV_LIST.pdf

I usually don't get involved in the oil debate, but I recall coming across this a while back and thought it would be of interest regarding Rotella and the JASO MA certification (keep in mind this is from 2008 so it's 7 years old at this point): So I guess whether it meets the spec is one thing and whether they have paid for the certification is another. Being that this product (Rotella) isn't even marketed as a motorcycle oil, I doubt they have interest in the certification and the cost involved with it.

I read basically the same thing. Problem is that while it may meet the JASO MA standards according to Shell, it has not been certified as doing so. While I would have no problem running it in my 2007, I would be hesitant using it in a scoot that is under warranty.

Many Many threads on this. Shell Oil says that T6 meets the specs, and they warranty that. Maybe not the Japanese cert, but still meets the specs!

I was asking for any documented cases, which I gather WT doesn't have.

I guess its the same old story IF there is an oil related engine problem , other than lack of oill (extremely rare on a new moto), and IF the dealer sends the oil to get a chemical analyses (maybe more rare), and IF the manufacturer asserts that the incorrect oil actually oil caused the failure, MAYBE they would prevail. Keep in mind, Shell Oil says it DOES meet the specs, so a chemical analysis would show a correct oil.

Never seems a documented example of this actually happening though, and have broached the question many times on many forums.

T6 is very popular among BMW riders, who are about as anal a group as exists.

Have an MP3 500 in my basement that is an example. It was a Piaggio buy back, after the guy took Piaggio to court. He had one motor blow up using Mobil 1, Piaggio covered the warranty and said, don't use Mobil1. He used it again and blew up the motor again, Piaggio denied the warranty and he had to hire a lawyer and take them to court to get Piaggio to buy the scooter back as a lemon.
I got the scooter when the dealer went out of business and was giving it away as he couldn't sell a buy back.

Sounds like a lemon. Dealer, now our of business, tried to fix engine, blew up again. Nothing to do with Mobill one which is why the dealer had to buy it back?

I don't believe there is any way Mobil oil makes BVs blow up. if they were that fragile no one would have one. I suspect there is a lot more to that story.

Anyway, I am very pleased that I can get Rotella T6 full syn for about $5/quart at Walmart.

there has been a stir about diesel engine oil in motorsports engines. I think the engine heat rating vs oil viscosity breaking down is a problem. The main stir was on air cooled engines. The debate went that small air cooled engines run hotter than diesels. With that said the oil would break down faster in air cooled engines. That is why I don't use the Rotella. I did not research the break down temp or operating temps of either. I did look at it this way if the oil was made for diesel engine why would I want to put it in a gasoline?

https://www.google.com/#q=what+temperature+does+diesel+burn&tts=0

205 for diesel

https://www.google.com/#q=what+temperature+does+gasoline+burn&tts=0

495 for gasoline

30 seconds of research you guys might want to reconsider using oil that is for diesels in your scooters.

John

Just some useful info for those that are unsure and/or who don't know: it's worth not buying too much oil in bulk and having to store it for too long as fully syn oil has a shelf life of 4 years in a sealed container and only 2 years in an opened container. There may be some minor variability between brands but that's the general rule and it's proven. And frankly it's not wise to take those shelf life figs to the limit as it could be 6 months old or more from the dealer at time of purchase. So unless you can use your oil in good time, or you use a lot of oil, it could be counter productive to use it if near or beyond it's shelf life. The oil actually breaks down in the container due to the cleaners and detergents in it, and means it just won't do a good job. Even ester based oils do this but less so.

You ever seen a hot Turbo? They can glow red on a back up generator for days or weeks at a time.

According to Shell Rotella T6 is Jaso MA certified- It's in their brochure, they just didn't put it on the web page.

http://s02.static-shell.com/content/dam/shell-new/local/business/rotella/downloads/pdf/rotella-t6-brochure.pdf

did you ever look at the bearings in a turbo?

John

Seems they say it is. Interesting that it is not listed on JASO's official document. Guess we'd have to ask someone that has a quart of it to look to see if it has the JASO MA certification seal on the bottle.

John, T6 is made for autos,motorcycles, and diesels. diesel specs are often higher than auto.
Walmart advertises T6 a oil for autos and motos precisely because some don't know this. ( I verified this personally with Shell USA).
A diesel has Pistons, cams shaft, other moving parts just like a motorcycle. Often higher compressin. Diesel oils usually do not have the certain additives which can cause issues with wet clutches, which is why it is so popular with the newer BMWs, Honds, etc.

So, no worries whatsoever using a high end oil like T6, which is made for motos cars and diesels.

Would have never thought oil had a shelf life. I thought it would last longer than the can it comes in

I don't have the T6 I ordered yet, but if there is a shelf life, is there a "use by" date somewhere on the container? Otherwise how would one know if it had been in the back room of the store where you bought it for 3-4 years?

I'm not too concerned buying from Walmart, but what if I'm on the road in some less traveled spot?

Hello greg, yes it's interesting isn't it. Over here some oil has a code on the container but they can be difficult to read. Note, I say code. Not a date. If you are in the know you can work out the date. I'm not in the know. I worked with oil scientists frequently in my job from various big brands and they all said the same about the shelf life. I even emailed Shell to check on a recent oil issue and they reminded me that their Shell 4T fully syn motorcycle oil has a limited shelf life. It resulted in me recycling 5 litres of oil. Dino oil has an even shorter life span in the can. Most oil is pretty fresh I'd say if you buy from Walmart. I've never looked at oil containers in the states to see if there is a date.

I've just now read through 4 different MV threads on motor oils for scooters.

For what it's worth... HA, Canadians! I bring this quote up because unless there is a mechanical defect (as in, something's actually broken), an engine will probably operate for hundreds of miles on almost anything that's still in liquid form. I personally helped a buddy clean out the engine of an '82 Escort he bought off his sister in '93. It was black cake. There wasn't more than a few drops of oil left...it had all turned to cake-like sludge it was in there so long. We pulled the drain plug and it was nothing but angel farts...nothing came out. The car ran fine for 2+ years with regular oil & filter changes. Was it ok to run it on cake? No. Was it good for it? Hell no. Did it work, yes.

All I'm saying is - using the 'wrong' oil is probably not as bad as you'd think.

I didn't invent this theory... I certainly believe all the testing and I certainly believe all the thermo-mechanical/chemical interactions but I believe it's all shades of grey in real life. Barely-distinguishable shades of grey in fact, that will only become clear over a great amount of miles. As long as you're not using maple syrup... It all comes down to Greasy. Let the mechanic tell you what is or isn't happening to your engine because of your oil.

Just my .02

For the most part I agree. I have no problem running Rotella in my scoot and ran it exclusively in my D/A (Duramax/Allison GMC Dually). I feel the main contention is does Rotella meet Piaggio's specs for oil in our scoots and if it would cause a warranty problem if there was an engine failure.

Some have said that they never heard of a warranty not being honored because of oil. One member posted that they have a scoot that was "bought back" after a lawsuit when Piaggio denied warranty because of the wrong oil being used. Some poo-pahed it as there has to be more to the story. Anyone can believe anything they want.

If it was me and I bought a new scoot, I would damned well be sure I only used recommended oil during the warranty period. The few extra dollars you would spend during the warranty period is nothing compared to the potential headaches.

Absolutely. Recommended oil is one that meets the stated specs in the owner manual (Specs, not brand) Match what is printed in the manual to the label on the bottle and you are OK. A auto/diesel oil that meets the API Sx spec meets the manufacturer's spec, no matter what Cx spec it also meets. The additive pack to also meet Cx has no impact on the oil's ability to perform to Sx standards.

At present, all API Sx oils are backward compatible. That means that if your vehicle calls for API SL, API SM and API SM are just fine.

JASO MA is a wholly different and confusing issue. It is a spec that says the oil is suitable for a motorcycle that uses the same oil supply to lube both gearbox and engine, as is quite common in motorcycles. It is a test of the oil's wet clutch friction reducing properties, with a limit on how much clutch friction can be reduced. It pertains to a clutch for a manual transmission, and the test is performed on a test rig that operates like a manual transmission's clutch. Whether or not this has any relevance to a wet clutch in a Piaggio CVT engine is beyond me. I asked a dealer to see if Piaggio could tell him why they spec JASO MA, but never heard back. Could very well be that the oil company that gives them promotional pricing happens to make their oil JASO MA, and specifying otherwise would rule out the vendor that is giving Piaggio promotional considerations. And, since a JASO MA wouldn't hurt anything, why not?

I did lube and fuel QA for several years, and to be frank, oil threads abound because the oil companies add a lot of sales puffery to their claims. Yup, "Mrs Buttersworth High Performance Oil" may indeed contain a proprietary blend of additives that do "this and that better", but there is little or no evidence that the "this and that" need to be done better, no a definition of what "better" means. If everyone marketed a straight SAE 5W/40 API SN formulated exactly to spec, how would they gain a market advantage? Thus, Mrs Buttersworth contains "pancakeoleum" to give better whatever.

OMG - Can you imagine how awesome it would be to have pancake-and-syrup scented exhaust?

How about Bacon?

http://amzn.com/B00S6RB7L0

Been using Rotella for 37k hard miles on the GTS250 - Still going strong!

All this talk when there is a simple answer.

I can't find anything on Motul synthetic racing oils that suggests they don't have corrosion inhibitors for storing engines. Certainly their motorcycle oils have excellent engine storage properties. I mention this because synthetic racing oils from other companies are not suitable for everyday use due to their lack of corrosion inhibitors.

Be careful out there.

Cheers,
Bob