Modern Vespa

I called Shell USA again today, since I received the T6 I ordered from Walmart. I asked two questions, 1) is there a shelf life, and 2) If so, how do i tell?

He said there is a 4 year shelf life (in an unopened container) for all their oil products He said oil is not hermetically sealed and over time will collect some moisture which will break down the additives. Thanks Stromrider!

On the bottom of my gallon jugs, printed is a series of numbers and letters. Towards the end is the "manufactured date/time" in my case

08 MAY 15 11:49. So, at least in my case, Walmart has fresh oil

Yes, cylindrical roller bearings. Not sure what bearing type matters though?

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Anyone can have their oil analyzed Go online find a lab, get a sample kit and send them your oil, they test and send you results, just like the race teams do.

The whole story of the scooter in my basement is here on MV if you want to search for it. I was WayneB back in that life.

no turbo's don't have bearings , they have bushings. They can't make a bearing to withstand the heat or speed.

John

WRONG!!!
Here's a whole page of ball bearing turbos for sale.
Owned a Diesel pick up truck for 15 years and did lots of mods, I know my diesels.
http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=GRT

i'll split this one with you , they are not shaft bearings, they are thrust bearings.
It was almost 20 years ago and I see there have been some changes.

John

Anyone can have their oil analyzed Go online find a lab, get a sample kit and send them your oil, they test and send you results, just like the race teams do. [/quote]

Lab analysis is only part of the picture. Teardown analysis is also needed to know what is going on. That's why the prudent course of action is to follow the manufacturer's instructions. They did all that crap before putting the given engine on the market, and continue to follow up afterwards, issuing factory service notices as necessary.

I just did an oil change on my motorcycle yesterday, using Rotella T-6 as always.

The oil I used has been sitting on a shelf in the shed since last summer, three quarts remaining, more than enough for the job. .

Now you got me worried. I'm guessing I'm still good over that relatively short amount of storage time.

Lab analysis is only part of the picture. Teardown analysis is also needed to know what is going on. That's why the prudent course of action is to follow the manufacturer's instructions. They did all that crap before putting the given engine on the market, and continue to follow up afterwards, issuing factory service notices as necessary.[/quote]

I have found lab testing can tell you the condition of a motor pretty good by the metal in the oil. They track testing from other like motors and give a comparison so you know if you are above or below standard.
Mine were coming back so good I just stopped testing on my 7.3 Power Stroke.

I'm OK with the T6 since I use it on the BMW as well. I do have several unopened quarts of 15W50, which I used in my last BMW and my Harley. Some of it is easily over 4 years old. Will need to check when i get to where it is stored and potentially discard it

There's something else too that should be considered. I note many folks put 'car' oil in their bikes. That's not the best things to do for your bike in many cases. The reason is that car oil is not as good at resisting molecular breakdown or "mashing". It also isn't designed to operate at the higher revs and higher stresses and temps that bike engines deliver. Most bikes will spend their time revving out to at least two or three times the revs of a car. My Burgman spends most of it's life at 7,000+ revs. But I use motorcycle oil which is better in so many ways than car oil. My car revs to 2-2500 rpm most of the time. Not saying car oil is going to total your engine, but you will get increased engine wear. That was one of the things we tested before I retired. Yet car oil often meets the same specs as motorcycle oil, doesn't it? Yes, but that doesn't mean it's the best oil to use. There are so many other factors to consider which I won't go into detail about here. But let me give you just one small example. VW make an engine (diesel) that has to have a particular oil rated to fully syn VW505.05 spec. This oil is available as a semi syn oil, or fully sym. Many folks use the semi synthetic oil version because it's cheaper without realising that it doesn't maintain it's specs anywhere near as long as the fully syn oil. The result is advanced and much quicker engine wear to the camshafts, leading to camshaft failure early in the engines life. This often totals the engine unit with the damage that can result. I've seen the same with bikes too when a car oil is used. So you see, engine oil specs must be checked but realise that it's not just the specs that matter. They don't tell the whole story. In fact, testing on the bench with some modern motorcycle engines, car oil proved to be "death' to the camshafts and crank bearings due to lack of extreme pressure agents that car engines don't often need. Bikes do! The fact that the engine oil in our scooters doesn't have a gearbox to lubricate isn't really the main factor here. Yes, the gearbox mashes the oil very effectively and ruins it in the end, but the engine in a scooter also does a good job of that too. Proper scoot oil or motorcycle oil does a much better job of long term lubing and the flow rate at very high revs is better. Remember, the oil specs on the side of the tin are the minimum specs the oil must meet, and motorcycle oils always exceed those spec by a long long way. They have to.

If it meets the specs, it meets the specs, there is no gray line.
Now full synthetic versus semi synthetic is a totally different story, but you're trying to combine the two.

@ WEB-Tech :
Ok, I see your point there and I agree with the obvious benefits of testing the used oil...I was completely unaware of that form of testing. I should have known better or thought about it more, mea culpa.

@ All :

Since we haven't quite hit the 'ad nauseum' point in this discussion quite yet...

We're literally talking about things at a molecular level here when discussing the differences between some of these oils. So lets split the atom one more time here - Testing used oil will tell you how much metal and 'sludge' (proper term?) is in your oil after riding with it for a time but I wonder if that testing can tell you where the metal/stuff came from? Did the metal particles come from the piston? The rings? The cylinder wall? ... Did the wear come evenly or is there more wear near the upper chamber, or lower, or...?

I'm not a chemical lab tech nor a race mechanic but I'm guessing the chemical testing can tell if / how much metal is wearing out from inside your engine but I'd also like to know how and where the wear is happening. Do I have more than average metal in my used oil because my oil isn't so great...or is it because my piston was manufactured near the fat end of the Quality Control tolerance compared to the next scoot that got a piston at the skinny end of QC tolerance? You're only talking .0001" of a difference maybe but that's undoubtedly significant when you're measuring molecules.

I believe Aviator is absolutely correct - chemical lab inspection and physical (mechanical) inspection together is what will give you your complete picture of what's going on in your particular engine.

I... I... I don't even have words for how factually incorrect you are.

anything that you say from here on out is null and void.

i am an ASE certified diesel mechanic with a specialty in turbo mechanics. i can tell you with a FACT that turbos have bearings.

you're just talking out of your ass at this point. T6 is good oil, it's proven to be just fine in motorcycles of all makes and this claim has been supported by both the manufacturer data sheet and anecdotal evidence.

why are you still talking? what point of minutiae are you so hung up about?

-g

Yes, to a certain degree. UOA can tell you what metals are in the oil. As different parts of an engine are made from different metals they can tell you what part of the engine is wearing.

Another point that has not come up yet is that UOA can tell you how much life is left in your oil (in your engine after a certain number of miles of a particular application , i.e. whatever riding you have done, city, back roads, drag racing). This analysis is particular to your ride for that point it time, but you can gather trends from them over time (I remember this point being made by Al a few years ago and it made sense to me.) This eliminates the point that a oil might be "depleted" or "broken down" because it is not made for the heat, rpm, clutches, ...

If you are really worried, get a UOA done. It costs $30 something dollars from Blackstone Labs. I do not work or have any connection to them except that I have used them in the past an am happy with the information I got back.

Try it, you might like it!

Indeed, there is no grey line but the point I was making is that the specs are just minimum specs that the oil must meet. Some oils go way above the minimum specs, other don't. Ok so my choice of the semi vs full syn was not a good comparison for you but I tried to illustrate that just because an oil meets a spec it doesn't make it necessarily the oil that's the best choice. So car oil and motorcycle oil, meeting the same specs doesn't mean they will both do an equally good job. Car oil in general is usually not as good as motorcycle oil. That is not hear say or make believe, it's fact and proven. The oil guys can tell you that but of course the problem is no one believes them as everyone thinks they are being had over by all the oil guys hype. Well, it actually isn't hype. Maybe years ago it was...but not now.

As others have said, oil analysis is a great way to find out what is going on in your engine and can tell you where the weak points are and how the oil is fairing. They can even tell what spec oil you are using and if it's the right one for your bike or car. We had our own oil analysis lab onsite. It was great to have that facility and for us it was essential. We would run maybe 15 different oil tests on our prototype bench engines per session. Mostly we designed and developed car engines but over the last 4 years we did more bike engines.

The labs know what parts in your motor use what type of metal. So the report could have a note like,
"Brass count high, shorten oil change intervals to protect from main bearing wear."

I used to have my oil testing in two different vehicles. One a car and the other a D/A GMC dually. I used Blackstone Labs. As long as you do that long term it can tell you a lot. Everything from break-in contaminants to normal wear to how long you can go between oil changes. Blackstone has enough experience with different engines that they have a good guess on what may be causing any contaminants.

Here is some of their feedback on a newer car, Honda with 5K on a new engine. Later tests showed vast improvements in results.

Copper and fuel dilution both read fairly high in the first sample from this engine. Neither is high enough to think
any major problems exist though both are higher than we expected to see. Universal averages show typical wear from
this type of engine after about 6,200 miles use on the oil. You noted that this engine sees a lot of short trips, so that
could account for the fuel we found. Copper may be lingering wear-in at brass and bronze parts. The fuel caused the
low viscosity. Check back in 5,000 miles.

I hope you made yourself feel better for 8 hours. A bearing is made of an inner and outer race with some sort of round or cylindrical object (typical roller or ball).http://dyrobes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Dynamic-Analysis-of-a-Turbocharger-in-Floating-Bushing-Bearings-ISCORMA3-Gunter-Chen-2005.pdf Now an old timer diesel guy would know this. As for ASE for diesel you just need to answer 55 questions correct. I bet that thrust washers are not mentioned or asked about in the ASE test.

Gee you seem to have a large post count here, and you most likely know your stuff. No one knows it all including myself. No need to put others down to make ones self feel better.

I have not made any positive or negative comments about Rotella. I have no hang up with T6 either. I just added some points.

John

This is interesting , what does it cost to have oil tested ?

John

http://www.astbearings.com/ball-bearings.html

Apparently, they make ball bearings that will go up to 400,000 RPM.

see... it's not that you added some points, it's that the points you added were *inherently* wrong or factually incorrect. so, seeing that i called you on it. you were talking out of your ass. if you think of that as "putting somebody down" then, well, i suppose we can agree to disagree on that. but the point remains that you were spouting nonsense, and the worst kind of nonsense-- the kind that could easily have been checked up on with a two min google search.

and, yes, i'll agree that i do have a large post count and that i most likely do know my stuff and that i certainly don't know it all-- i mean, really what is the meaning of life and is the sky really blue for that matter?-- but one thing i'm dammn sure of is that i don't go talkin' out the side of my neck when i'm not 100% sure on the validity of my claims. i did. thank you.

xo
-g

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/free-test-kits.php

-g

$25 per sample. Test kits are free. You also give them any info that they should take into consideration. For my truck I told them I used it often to tow a 14K lb. trailer. For my car I told them that it is often used for very short trips, this was a consideration considering it was during the winter. Also let them know milages and oil used since that can be taken into consideration in the results.

You can find more info at the link below and view sample analysis.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com

If you want to get the condition of the oil to see how good it is don't forget to specify that. It about $10 more but gives a fuller picture.

I'll add this to the turbo bearing talk. Turbos can use either ball or journal bearings (or a combo). I won't argue the point, just post...

http://zhome.com/ZCMnL/PICS/turboChargerBasics/turboChargerBasics.html

http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticles/ID/1978/Turbo-Tech-Turbo-Bearings.aspx

Yup, very important point. Oil formulations do far more than just lubricate, and additives are included in the final lubricant to do these other tasks.

For example, some additives, such as acid neutralizers, are "consumed" in the process of doing their job. Thus, you need to know the condition of the additive pack. Your oil could be lubricating the hell out of your engine, yet the acid neutralizer could be depleted.

Thus the requirement for standards. All oils must meet the standard to be predictable for use. Does a higher level of acid neutralizer make an oil better? Only if your engine is producing a higher level than normal for most engines of acid byproduct to be neutralized. Now, if your engine is producing a higher level of acid byproducts, is by design or due to a fault? If by design, the manufacturer will set the change interval to prevent exceeding the ability of API Sx oil they specify. However, if due to a fault, an oil with a higher level of acid neutralizer will mask the symptoms and thus not identify a potential fault. The data you want is not how much acid neutralizer is available at 6,000 miles, but how much acid neutralizer is consumed in those 6,000 miles.

With the much defamed "minimum standard", you know how much acid neutralizer your started with, and thus the amount left at 6,000 miles has meaning. Thus, labs have to establish a baseline for every oil brand and engine combination before they can assist you in determining consumption rates for a given combination. Without a properly determined consumption rate, you cannot predict how long a given level of additive will continue to provide protection.

Thus, "minimum standards" reduce risk considerably until actual operation and lab experience can tell you otherwise. The baselines are established precisely and in writing. Engine A will produce X amount of acid in Y hours of use. Z amount of acid neutralizer will work just fine, with a A% margin of error, if the oil is changed at X,XXX miles, as specified in the owner manual.

Perhaps the above might shed light on why we have been perfectly comfortable with aviation lubricants formulated to meet the "minimum standard" and no more? I worked in safety, maintenance, lube lab and QA while logging over 5,000 hours in the cockpit and many, many more in the back, relying on "minimum standard" lubricants, and never lost a minute's sleep. - and that included naps in the cockpit

Another $10 to get the condition of the oil? I thought that's what I was paying the $25 for in the first place but um, ok, no problem. This is all pretty interesting. I'll have to try this out on my 2003, 3,500 mile Vespa & my 1995, 315,000 mile Ranger.

Madision, you are correct they make bearings that can handle the high speed. But they will not handle the high heat inside a turbo unit. That is why they use bushings without balls or rollers.

John

The basic report you get is for wear metals, gasoline in the oil and coolant in the oil.

The bushing the impeller shaft rides on does not have rollers or balls. the shaft is suspended by oil spins on a film of oil not a roller.

It was a funny life lesson I once had, I went to an ASE auto tech . I had a misfiring cylinder. The car had the shakes. The ASE tech pulled the ignition wires till he found the bad one. I had mentioned I was at another shop. He made a point to tell me the other guy F&<kED it all up. I said oh man. Then said to myself I will never go back to the other guy for a tail light again .

it looks like will have to agree to disagree.

in another post in this thread I was willing to split on this because its been 20 years since I touched a diesel or looked at a turbo.

John

I used Blackstone too.

Keep digging.

It's entertaining.



R

Watch video, NO BUSHINGS USED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AS you said, it's been 20 years since you touched a turbo, I do know they had Garret ball bearing turbos in 1999 when I bought my truck, so they're not a new thing..

Sure... there is an overpriced answer for everything.

Why carry Samsonite luggage when Louis Vitton will hold the same stuff with so much more panache.

So true. Guilty as charged. Since it only takes a around a quart I say damn the torpedos. I also use Seafoam.

Wait, "panache"? Is that a new premium oil additive!? Where can I get it!? It's not one of those things you can only get in Canada is it?

nevermind