Modern Vespa

I agree, every vehicle I have ever owned I let run for at least a half a minute just to ensure the oil is up and moving.

You'd know within 10 seconds if it wasn't. I'm afraid I disagree with SDG for once - even in the depths of winter.

No wrong or right on this subject. Everyone seems to have an opinion on it so just do what you need or think with your scooter. No need for a pissing contest on such a trivial subject we must be board.

Just to end this lets say Warm Up is 0-2 minutes depending on how you like it.

There are two reasons that you might let your engine warm just a little;
1) To get oil flowing and circulating
2) To allow the fuel in the induction system to vaporize better

These are distinct and unrelated. There appears to be a lot of confusion and / or misinformation about these two.

For no 1 - the oil, it is a good idea to let the engine idle for at least a few seconds, longer in colder weather, to allow the oil to circulate and start to warm. Lower engine rpm is better for at least the first minute or so.

For item 2 - gasoline is a liquid in the tank, lines and carb or injector. It needs to be vaporized to ignite in the engine and it vaporizes much more readily at elevated temperatures. As a result of this relationship a lot more fuel is required when the engine is "cold" (at ambient) so there is an enrichment method (choke on a carb, enrichment software for injection) to deliver this greater ratio of fuel to air immediately after start. Injection is more precise, that is why we have become accustomed to starting and driving off right away. The good driveability deliverd by injection does nothing to address item #1 - the oil, however.

Overall, it is good idea to wait a few seconds in warm weather, and maybe a minute or two when really cold as in winter. In both cases its a good idea to limit rpm (vehicle speed on a cvt scooter) for the first few minutes too.

In my experience, yes (although, being picky, I don't know whether it's strictly an idle problem. I'd just say there was a problem).

Reason I say that is because we've had similar issues on our scoots from time to time. And, if we (turn up the idle speed, and/or) mention it to the mechanics when we take them in for service, then they fix the problem and the stalling goes away.

Thanks. I'll have my mechanic look at it then.

Interesting subject.

The argument of faster warming when under load giving less cycles is one way of looking at it, but I think different parts of the engine may be effected.

I guess you could hypothosize the Piston ring/Liner may wear more if it takes longer to warm up while at idle, but I would think the conrod bearings may wear more due to load applied while not at optimum lubrication and temperature.

I follow the "warm up while putting the helmet on" and gentle riding till up to temperature as a good compromise between start-and-go and idle till up to temperature. I am in the middle of running in the engine on my 400 and it is just out of Winter here, so I tend to let it idle a little longer (maybe 1:30) at the moment, but will reduce it to a minute or less as the weather warms up and the bike is through its first service.

//Dennis.

Out of interest, do any of you (who have them) warm up your cars?

I'll be happy for anyone to tell me that I'm wrong, but I'd never think to warm up any modern engine.

(To my mind) engines are designed to work for a lot longer than any of the other parts on a vehicle, and will generally still be working when the vehicle is scrapped, so even if the arguments about reducing wear and tear are correct, I'm not sure I'd take them that seriously.

I'm not wanting to start an argument, but this topic comes up fairly often, and all I ever see are variants of the: "well, I don't really know, but I do it just in case", or "it might reduce wear on the engine" lines of thought.

I'd love to find out the truth.

Yep, I do, but only for 20-30 seconds when dead cold. Remember that motorcycle and scooter engines are usually much higher stressed than car engines. Specific power (KW/Litre or BHP/cc) is much higher and with all of the ways that is achieved means that RPM is higher and tolerances tighter, one of the reasons why most car engines last for a few hundred thousand Km before requiring a rebuild while the bike and scooter engines are usually done before 100,000 Km.

//Dennis.

Its all good, I believe the answer is a smidge subjective. You own all injected bikes Jim and the little carbed 150's need a second to get their senses.

Winter or not, we all get along.

SDG

Warm up of both the coolant and oil is primarily a function of engine throughput, that is the mass flow of air through the engine. So it will warm the fastest at Wide Open Throtte, but I wouldn't recommend it! To minimize wear allow at least a brief warm-up, as there is very little wear potential at idle, low speeds and light loads.

If you consider that 90 % of engine wear comes from running an engine from cold I always let mine warm for at least a minute before I ride.

Bill X

Shouldn't it be your toast and butter
Coggo

This is an interesting question... I own a car after I started owning bikes, so I do "warm up" my car much like my motorbike, ie start it up after the turning it on for about 10sec, and let it idle for about 30-60sec before driving off gently. Like my bikes I also tend to let it sit and idle for about 15-30sec before turning the engine off. I've never thought of doing it any other way before and recently when a friend borrowed my car, he pushed in the key, turn it to "on" and starts her up immediately before speeding away like it was stolen

There's a thing called oil pressure. I think it was Toyota who even made an oil filter that was supposed to hold pressure somehow.

If you heat a liquid it expands. I would guess that once the oil begins to move (and warm) it builds up pressure and this pressure allows it to flow to all the parts human design would want it to.

And of course there are the engine seals. Which would have a harder time functioning if the parts they seal weren't all of the same alloy. Which I think they probably are. Or at least close enough and sealed well enough that these things oughtn't be weeping in thirty thousand miles.

Or maybe they will I don't know. Yet.

Remember that the majority of us ride when we don't suffer hypothermia either, so the bikes run in ambient temps which shouldn't matter if they were started one way or the other.

Harv

I don't know if your 90% is correct, but I fully agree with your general statement (most wear at cold), which is why I recommend to keep idle as short as possible. Sound contradictory? It isn't (see my earlier post). That's what oil pumps are there for Heat just makes oil less viscous.
To give us the viscousness we need on a cold engine and a cold day, we are supposed to use 5W-xx oil.

The coefficients of thermal expansion of liquids are relatively small; otherwise, you can't keep the oil in the dampers or keep the all the bottled beverages inside the bottles.

I think all that should be said has been said - this thread should be allowed to sink...

Before we put this to bed, can we ask emillkim what s/he thinks of the responses s/he got and what s/he is going to do from now on? I'd really be interested.

Thank You!

Yup. I learned a few things though. Which I appreciate.

Harv

But there is a wrong and right
Now, there may be lots of "Opinions" but there is only one RIGHT way. Start up the engine, let in run for about 30 sec to 1 min and go. Don't give it full throttle till warm if possible. It's that simple

Opinions are let assholes everyone has one. But I try and go with the facts not "Opinions".

Wayne B

+1000

There must be.

But no one here is able to come up with more than personal opinions. I'd certainly like to know the right answer, but I don't think the combined brains of MV know what it is (me included, obviously).

This is basically what I suggested however until an engineer chimes in common sense rules the day. I do the same with my cages.

Best,
SDG

The only thing I know that had a different warm up procedure, was back in the mid 80's. Suzuki RM's, the Race Version of the Moto Cross Bike, had to be at operating temp before riding or you would seize the piston. The owners son locked one up riding from the truck to the pits, he gave it to much gas and got the RPM's to high and it seized. Think it had about 2 hours of running time on it. We contacted Suzuki and they just stated engine had to have been rev'd when cold and not warm up properly. Warranty VOID.
The clearances were so tight that the piston would get to tight in the cylinder and seize if ridden before the cylinder and piston were both up to operating temps.

If it helps, I get my info Suzuki and Honda Motorcycle Training classes (Honda info was relayed to me by a friend after he went to Honda Training and I went to Suzuki Training, comparing notes) Think between the two, there was a little knowledge and not just "Opinions" Their warm up info seemed to match.

Wayne B

This is certainly a very good reply. I think the word "opinions" is being too focused on in this thread Wayne, the happy medium has obviously come forward.

Nice my man.

Best,
SDG

OK, sorry to raise the thread again but I like to let the bike warm for a completely different reason.

I find that unless I warm the bike the bike is balky when riding and wants to stall at the first stop sign. The revs are keep higher by the auto-choke, as it should, but this means the revs are high enough to engage or partially engage the clutch. If I don't hold the brakes the bike wants to move during idle. If I hold the rear brake, the stopped wheel causes tension in the CVT back to the engine slowing its revs or stalling the engine.

If I wait until the choke lets off, and revs start to come down, the clutch acts normally, and the bike is much happier and responsive when riding. This time is dependent on ambient temp and how long the engine has been off. In the cool morning, 40-55*F, this is about 2 minutes or as long as it takes to get my helmet and other gear on. In the summer afternoon, 95-105*F, this is seconds.

they dont call it operating temperature for nothing, I always let them warm up a few min.

I agree with you but there is no point to argue someone that is not open to other ideas or methods.

Me
preride inspect
1 turn on scooter or Motorcycle
2 put on Jacket and helmet and earplugs
3 sit on scooter and ride it slow out to surface streets

that is my method and I'm sure its longer then a minute.

but like I said opions too many here so everyone do what works for you.

There is no reason to warm the scoot up for 10 minutes, especially in moderate to warm weather. All you want to do is get the oil circulating and up to pressure before you take off. This happens in a matter of seconds under most conditions. Now, in really cold weather, a short warm up is appropriate to warm the oil a bit and stabilize the idle. Even then, your scoot (or any vehicle) warms up much more quickly being ridden/driven at moderate RPMs than sitting in the driveway.

Good stuff . I would also add that when stopping from steady riding Piaggio recommends to wait a few seconds to alow the eng. to adjust to steady idling, and then turn off the key. I tend to forget this one. And thanks Jimc for the tip on removing the key , like you do in the U.K..,for liability. This is a good one to remember for safety, for theft, and keep kids from hopping on, or someone getting hurt.

Because you don't agree is not a reason to let a tread sink. this a good thread and people seem to have a interest in it. you can chose just not to respond to any thread that your not interested in. no need to flame it just don't look. I spend time in lots of forums and that is the best method for forums. Now warm up your scooter and ride.

What's so good about it now. I mean it was an interesting question at first but seems to be somewhat pointless now. Some say do and some say don't. Seems to be a matter of choice. Next.

Again, another +1000.

The horse has expired. No matter how you beat him, he won't get up.

You guys probably know this (I know I am guilty of it right now however since its at the top) the thread won't die if you keep bringing it to the top!

I have this weird feeling this thread is going to grow like wildfire and in a odd kind of way I think its pretty cool. The thread has life, thats what forums are for.

Prop's to the OP making us all think and debate.

Cheerio,
SDG

Well if it is locked or nobody responds, it will die.

I guess if we could just lock any threads we did not like may as well just close the fourm

Well....As an automotive engine engineer, I am a bit qualified to weigh in on the subject. Automotive engines tend to run from 2 to 6 liters displacement and 600 to 7000 rpm rather than 0.1 to 0.3 liters and 1500 to 9000 rpm like these scooter motors, but they are more similar than they are different.
I tried, in a diplomatic way, and as a "newbie" to previously answer the questions without coming off like a know-it-all, thus the "nerd" emoticon!
Anyway, as several have highlighted here, start-up friction is important, but not quite as important as all of the oil company advertising would have you believe (and most common wisdom seems to derive from advertising!).
During cranking the oil pump starts pushing oil through the passages and begins to develop oil pressure. Depending on the oil temperature, oil viscosity and rapidity with which the engine fires, it may actually have pressure during the first firing stroke of the piston. Plus if the engine has not been sitting for weeks, all of the bearing and wear surfaces should retain a good bit of oil film. If your engine has not been started in months, for example for the first outing in the spring, I would recommend that you pull the spark plug wire and crank the engine for 5 seconds to allow the oil pump to pressurize everything before the first cylinder firing event. Other than that condition I would not worry excessively about start-up friction and oil grade.
Once the engine starts, you still have relative molasses in your crankcase after a cold (engine at ambient) start, even with synthetic oil it is more like honey! Think of how it flows out of the bottle when doing an oil change. I would be concerned about running it hard for the first 2 minutes after starting, until the engine oil begins to warm and flow everywhere. You can drive off after 10 or 15 seconds but if you limit the rpm for the first minute or two you will reap the benefits of a long-lived and happy engine. If you drive it "like you stole it" while the starter motor is still spinning down, well lets just say I never want to buy a used scooter from you! Well adjusted or calibrated engines do tend to run good cold, as there is less likelihood of spark knock and greater charge density for combustion, but that has nothing to do with oil and wear surfaces.
High temperature wear is the other end of the spectrum. Oil breaks down with primarily three factors;
1) time at temperature - greater amounts of time at higher operating temps - and operating temp is mostly a function of speed and to a lesser extent, load (throttle opening). Here is where synthetic oil has its primary benefit. Synthetic oil is much more resistant to high temperature deterioration and I assume why Piaggio requires it in these high-revving engines.
2) Contamination from combustion - a little bit of the burned fuel and air blows past the rings during each cylinder firing, accumulating to the point that the oil becomes less effective
3) Contamination from raw gasoline - during the first minute after a cold start the fuel mixture is extra-rich to support proper combustion. Some of this gasoline passes by the rings and end up in the oil. No problem if you bring your engine up to full operating temp. The temperature causes the gasoline to evaporate and is passed back into the combustion chamber with PCV (positive crankcase ventilation). BIG problem if you don't run the engine for more than a few minutes. Do this many times over and your oil sump is half gas and half oil, which does a very lousy job of lubrication.
Hope this helps and maybe clears the air a bit!

Thank you.