Modern Vespa

This discussion, which was originally about the now-discontinued UFP/3, has been transferred to MP3 Footpeg Brackets - SOLD OUT which is about the current bracket model. This thread is now for historical purposes. This thread had to be edited repeatedly to reflect the current versions, and since some posts were about the old model and some edited to reflect descriptions and pictures of the new, it has become too confusing. See you at the new thread!

This discussion, which was originally about the now-discontinued UFP/3, has been transferred to [topic79507] which is about the current bracket model. This thread is now for historical purposes. This thread had to be edited repeatedly to reflect the current versions, and since some posts were about the old model and some edited to reflect descriptions and pictures of the new, it has become too confusing. See you at the new thread!

Hi from France!

Here in France, the MP3 400 LT is by far (80%) the best selling version of the MP3 because it can be driven with a regular operators license (motorcycle endorsement not required)

I know of quite a few people who'd be interested in buying your footpeg holder should you ever decide to produce one specifically for the MP3 400 & 250. As a member of a french MP3 forum (club-scootergt.com), we could probably arrange for a bulk order and payment in order to save you the trouble of sending multiple packages.

By the way, and no offence, but shipping internationally is a piece of cake:
1. put item to be shipped in box, close box
2. put address on box
3. go to Post Office
4. fill out customs slip, stick on box
5. pay for shipping
6. done, item shipped.

We're not talking rocket science here.

Enjoy your vacation and keep me posted, okay?


dfmz

This post was originally requesting technical feedback for potential improvements. As you will see reading through this thread, I got more than I could ever hope, including great pictures of improvements that buyers did themselves (some of which may very well show up in future UFP versions), useful little add-ons to make UFPs more functional, etc. Keep those innovations coming!

EDIT: The Model /LT was a direct result of user feedback. Thanks members!

It's always great to see innovators who are willing/able to help the rest of their community. Thank you, Jeff.

Have you checked into having them powder coated black? My thought was that it would improve the appearance, and not cost too much if you had them done in bulk. You could also use a less expensive material than stainless to build them, which might more than offset the cost of coating.

>It's always great to see innovators who are willing/able to help the rest of their community. Thank you, Jeff.

Have you checked into having them powder coated black? My thought was that it would improve the appearance, and not cost too much if you had them done in bulk. You could also use a less expensive material than stainless to build them, which might more than offset the cost of coating.

EDIT: The below applies to models UFP/1 and UFP/3. The current model, UFP/LT, could indeed be powder-coated, but I am offering a percentage of them in bead-blasted finish, which in my opiniion is even nicer than powder-coating. If you want to powder-coat your bracket, you would be better off just buying an unfinished UFP/LT assuming I have them available.

Thanks Ray,

UFO's peg mounts, which was one of the sources of inspiration for the UFPs, used plain steel and were coated (painted, but they could have probably been blued or powder-coated). The issue is UFO mounted his pegs up high (wider but not lower or forward) so his brackets deal with only compressive loading. These pegs are under tension, so they must be "springy." Plain steel does not spring, and indeed it is next to impossible to do the forming that my design entails on spring steel...the steel must be first formed, then treated (heat annealing and/or chemical precipitation) to make it springy. So while plain steel is indeed cheaper, it has to undergo an additional processing step. Six of one, half a dozen of the other, right? The cost is break even, so stainless was the clear winner. If I was making hundreds at a time, then they can all be dumped into one huge treatment basket and then suddenly the plain steel becomes viable. The short answer is that, counterintuitively, high-quality stainless is actually CHEAPER in my application - in small quantities. If I were to get to the point where I was ordering a hundred at a time, I'd have the luxury of reengineering the whole process and I bet I could get the manufacturing cost down to $30 a pair.

Plus once you have a pair - I notice you haven't ordered yours yet ;-) - you'll have to admit that the stainless looks really good against the MP3/500's diamondplate...

Sooo...you would like me (and any other mp3 owner) to buy these home-made brackets, but acknowledge that they are not intended to be used in a manner that places your weight on the foot peg. (Sort of goes against the definition) and then if we are not satisfied with them...you do not want to know that either. But if we can improve the design, let you know so you can make a buck off of us.

Quite the product. Good luck.

I'm still on the fence....not sure I need the extra room now that my seat's been redone. Give me a few hundred more miles.

The reason I brought up the finish is the unit in the photos above looks like a pre-production prototype with the markings and all. Can I assume the finished stainless product is more polished? Can you post any photos of the production units you're sending out?

>The reason I brought up the finish is the unit in the photos above looks like a pre-production prototype with the markings and all. Can I assume the finished stainless product is more polished? Can you post any photos of the production units you're sending out?

EDIT: the below applies to the now-discontinued UFP3. The current UFP/LT has no tooling marks.

Ray, I had not even noticed that; you're right, there are indeed tooling marks but in the photos they are extremely evident, I guess at the angle I took them the light was catching the reflections off the marks, because in the photo it almost looks like there's a Sharpie line drawn on the bracket and in reality it's much more subtle (notice how in the top photo, the top line is almost invisible, and in the bottom photo, the side line is almost invisible - but they're both the same bracket - see picture below). Nonetheless, that's an excellent observation and my first field improvement is to change the drawing from "no finish specified" to "wire buff out all marks." Thanks! Meanwhile, if anyone who has a bracket also has a wire wheel, could you try a quick buff and let me know how it comes out? To be one the safe side, I suggest you try it first on the mark that's on the inside radius, that can't be seen when it's mounted. (The mark is the result of being clamped on a big press machine called an Industrial Brake.)

I do not recommend powder-coating these, at least not at first. Did you know that it is illegal to paint a metal ladder in the U.S.? (29 CFR 1910). EDIT: wooden ladder, 29 CFR 1926. That's because if it is painted, you can't see stress cracks. Same principle here: until we have more experience to know long-term that the brackets are completely safe, I would not put any coating on them that would prevent the operator from noticing signs of fatigue. But later that could be an option; maybe even powder-coat them in colors matching the scooter!

Lgrande, yes, that's it in a nutshell. This is not a commercial enterprise but a grassroots forum user project. As far as "making a buck," assuming I sell the entire first batch, I will turn a profit of 60 cents an hour on the entire endevour and that's not enough to even cover the money I spent on the prototype. As of this date, I have sold six brackets and am personally out over three hundred dollars, not counting nearly 200 hours of design work and shop negotiation, plus the cost of the original prototypes. So yes, the people participating in this project are doing so at-risk; I daresay that I'm taking the biggest risk of all.

wow how come manufatures can paint the frames of scooters and motorcycles, or even chrome parts like crash bars and highway pegs?

I hope someone will be around to remind me never to install a ladder on my MP3 when I get the itch to. Hmm wonder if a wooden or fiberglass one will work?

I am interested, once you have confirmed the fit for the MP3 400. Thanks for taking the time and effort to do this.

>wow how come manufatures can paint the frames of scooters and motorcycles, or even chrome parts like crash bars and highway pegs?

OAD, I presume that's a serious question, so I will give a serious answer. First, electroplating is bonding at the molecular level, so a crack in the substrate is not disguised. A dye penetrant test on a chromed part will detect substrate cracks down to ten-thousanths of an inch. The same is true for bluing, and some other techniques such as MedCoat make similar claims. Painting and powder-coating are deposition-level and can hide flaws, even big ones. As far as painting scooter parts, I think you will generally find that externally observable tension-loaded parts whose failure could result in a loss of control are NOT painted. In addition, scooters must certify to DOT requirements, and that involves meeting a slew of ANSI, ASTM, NRTL, and other materials standards or their recognized foreign equivalents.

All kidding aside, if I was developing the UFP for a motorcycle parts manufacturer with deep pockets I'd be happy to paint them - after I finished running them for a few million cycles on a fatigue tester. If someone wants to buy the brackets and paint them, that's their perogative; I am just saying I don't recommend it. Since this is something that could result in someone's death, I am taking the safety aspects of the UFPs quite seriously, and keeping my design decisions and recommendations conservative.

Oh, and correction: it's wood ladders that can't be painted, and it's 29 CFR 1926. The reason, though (that the user can't see defects) is still pertinent.

Jeff,

My footpeg brackets arrived this afternoon and they look great. A perfect solution to a nasty problem. Very simple to install and look like they will last forever. I really appreciate your taking the initiative on this and will think of you as I stretch my legs. Now, if you could come up with a better windshield for the 500...

Thanks again.

Marty

it looks great just needs a touch of black paint.

I am so curious how can they be sooooooo expensive?

>My footpeg brackets arrived this afternoon and they look great. A perfect solution to a nasty problem. Very simple to install and look like they will last forever. I really appreciate your taking the initiative on this and will think of you as I stretch my legs. Now, if you could come up with a better windshield for the 500...

Thanks again.

Marty

Thanks Marty! Did you have to sign for the shipment? Which footpegs are you using? If not the Dixies (or even if they are), can you post pix? Which hole are you using (uh, that didn't come out the way I intended)

Oh, and I did come up with a better windshield, check out my Cruiser Windshield Project thread...but that one is hardly plug-n-play and I don't recommend it as the Ultimate Solution (i.e. while I love the result, if I had to do it over again I wouldn't, benefit not worth the hassle).

And of course the big question: if you drive a /500, why do you use a /400 as your Avatar? :-)

Robert, it is what it is. They are soooooo expensive because right now they are being custom-made in small quantities. Get enough people to buy a hundred at a time and the price will come down, I assure you.

BTW if you are serious, PM me with info on the LT floorboard (I had PM'd dfmz - see above - about his statements regarding French MP3s but he never responded). Assuming that the brackets will fit a regular /400 (something I expect to know shortly), exactly where does that brake pedal go on the floorboard? Are the mounting screws in the same place? Are there screws, covers, risers etc. associated with the brake pedal that might interfere? I can Google photos; but I need close-ups, drawings, measurements etc.!

Yup, mine were on the pourch when I got home. Used the same foot pegs. Could only think of reinforcing with 1/4 plate on the side brackets? Very nice fit and design. Again thanks for all your efforts. Only drove 5 miles in town with them. At the moment, my big feet are pushing the riding pegs down when I get off. Have to "train" myself to lift feet up.

rjeffb, thumb's up on your perseverence and ingenuity in coming up with a workable footrest solution. I have been following your efforts since you first started posting on it and it sure looks like its working out and congrats are in order - necessity is the mother and all that, but innovation takes dedication and skill. Nice job. Hope to score a set myself before too long, but have to lay in winter gear first.

Cheers!

I like the concept but I am not willing to throw down a $100 bill then find out they don't fit my comfort leg length and now I got 2 pieces of $100 scrap. If the cost were somewhere in the $20 range I would give them a shot.

>Yup, mine were on the pourch when I got home. Used the same foot pegs. Could only think of reinforcing with 1/4 plate on the side brackets? Very nice fit and design. Again thanks for all your efforts. Only drove 5 miles in town with them. At the moment, my big feet are pushing the riding pegs down when I get off. Have to "train" myself to lift feet up.

Too cool. The fabricator suggested extending the back end of the peg ear all the way back, so the peg ear would be a long triangle rather than a little rectangle. Then there's the gusset ($10 a bracket, I suspect Billy Bob's auto repair could do it for half that), and the fabricator's favorite idea which was to make the whole thing out of 1/4" plate (but big increase in cost and I'm worried that it might become uncomfortable to put your feet back on the floorboard with such a thick piece of metal). Your idea of adding 1/4" just to the bend means welding (right? Or do you have something else in mind?), and then we're back to the gusset. I had this idea of a weld-less gusset, sort of a dog-ear that gets bent over and under the main bend to form an attached-but-not-welded gusset. Kind of like Origami but in sheet metal. Wow, to get the dimensions right the first time on that would be really difficult - let's see how you and the others do with version 1.0 first.

There is another consideration - the fact that the ears yeild is actually a good thing, because if you unintentionally push yourself back, its the bracket that carries the load and not the floorboard screws. I personally prefer that the brackets give, I think it's a superior design...provided they consistently return to their original shape. Speaking of which, I pulled the UFP1s off my scooter and nested one within the other; both peg ears continue to be at the exact same angle. I know it's only been what, five weeks? but I have driven them aggressively during that time, more aggressively than I recommend (my favorite is driving over speed bumps, you should always move your feet back to the floorboards not only to avoid loading the brackets but to literally save your ass, but I keep my feet on the pegs in the name of research. Talk about putting your ass on the line!).

OAD, what if there was a way to rig a one-time-use "demo" bracket, maybe tin or cardboard, to check out the length and general feel? I don't know if that's even do-able, just thinking out loud as it were; for example, you'd need to already have a pair of pegs, wouldn't you? So maybe not a viable idea. I must say that I doubt they'll ever be $20 a pair in any event; the shipping alone is half that. The only way you'd ever get something like this for $20 is a mass-produced part from China, designed by someone who has never seen an MP3 and made by someone who has no interest in whether or not it kills you.

B-2-4, your wit and enthusiasm is appreciated always. A pair of brackets are waiting for you at your beck and call (what the hell is a "beck," anyway?)

thanks.
I am comptiplating a little different approach.I'll post a pic when I find what I am looking for and get them installed.

>thanks.
I am comptiplating a little different approach.I'll post a pic when I find what I am looking for and get them installed.

I'm sure you are already aware of this, but there's been at least a half-dozen peg-on-an-MP3 ideas posted in different threads. Maybe one of them will give you some inspiration. The UFP was directly inspired by two of them. Love to see your idea!

give you a hint. mine won't be mounted on or near the floorboards.

I'm very impressed Jeff.....great work, right up there with your ingenious windshield conversion (Shadow > MP3)!

I'll be at the shop this weekend for 12,000 mile service. I'll compare the 500 and 400 there for dimensions. I already have the 500 floor boards on my 400.

I am interested in ordering a pair.

Did not think about the stress with no flex on the bracket, you are right. Now I am thinking of adding a "rubber bumper" between the bracket and body. Not to make contact unless the bracket is stress flexed.

>Did not think about the stress with no flex on the bracket, you are right. Now I am thinking of adding a "rubber bumper" between the bracket and body. Not to make contact unless the bracket is stress flexed.

EDIT: The rubber bumper idea that is being discussed here would eventually become a standard feature in the UFP/LT version.

That was one of my original ideas. This is as far as I got: using a pre-threaded bumper instead of a screw <http://www.mcmaster.com/#rubber-bumpers/=3uajub>, but those things are unreasonably large and expensive; and using a bumper that the existing screw would fit into <http://www.mcmaster.com/#rubber-bumpers/=3ual0b> but I couldn't find the right size. I think the latter is the more do-able approach and is what I hinted at in the first post of this thread when I said you should ensure that you don't cause damage to the body panel. Because such a bumper is under a lot of stress, I would only go with one that has the built-in reinforcing washer. I also checked out Grainger and Lowes and some other big names, but that certainly doesn't mean that there isn't somebody out there who makes it.

BTW unless you are using the top hole, or using the middle hole with an external threaded shaft, after a few days of driving you may decide that the mounting hardware isn't really going to contact the panel. Also, perhaps it's inappropriate to generalize but the shorter someone is, the less they weigh as a general rule, so while the top hole has less clearance, it is also likely to have less weight on it. For someone who is both short and heavyset, then this is more of a genuine concern. Anyway, I was paranoid at first but learned that my concerns were unfounded, except for that first time I unthinkingly tried to push myself back in the saddle, the peg hardware has never come close to touching the body panel (the UFP1 hole is halfway between the top and middle holes of the UFP3). But if you can find an appropriate bumper for a reasonable price or come up with a different scheme, I'm all for it!

I do want to stress something (pun intended): there is no reinforcing framework under the body panel that the bracket would contact if overstressed. If you are going to install a bumper or other protection, it must be for the sole purpose of protecting the panel finish in the event of UNINTENTIONAL contact, not with the intent of routinely transferring force from the bracket to the panel (i.e., if anyone was thinking that by sticking some rubber between the bracket and the body panel they can now stand up on the pegs, that would be a bad idea because you would wind up bending or even punching a hole in the panel). This is precisely why I did not pursue the bumper idea: I had concluded that in my setup it was very unlikely that the peg screws would ever contact the body, even going over potholes, and so a bumper was more likely to cause harm than good. YMMV based on clearance and weight, of course.

Fuzzy, mkaymond is receiving a bracket and will be trying it on his /400. I am grateful for your eyeballing the situation and giving a second opinion. There are three concerns:

1. Are the floorboard screws the same thread and in the same locations (x-axis)? (I think I already know the answer to that)
2. Is the distance from the screw holes to the side of the floorboard the same (y-axis)?
3. Are there any protrusions, ridges, detents, lips, or other features sunk into or rising out of the /400 floorboard that might interfer (z-axis)?

You know, now I'm torn about buffing out those tool lines. I was looking at a UFP3 this morning, and I think it actually looks kinda neat in an unintended way, almost like a holograph - you know, turn it this way and the lines appear, turn it that way and they disappear. That's not a bug, it's a feature! Maybe I should partner with Versace and sell them for $500, including free cosmetic kit. Hey bracket owners, would you prefer the brackets with the lines, without, or does it not make a difference? If it hadn't been pointed out to you, would you have even noticed the lines?

Thanks to all the other boosters as well, and OAD I am very interested in seeing the results of your idea.

Jeff,

Didn't have to sign - they were in my mailbox. I'm using a set of Custom Chrome pegs but I have the aluminum Dixie's on order. I think they look good and will save about 2 lbs.

As to the hole, you were right. The second hole is perfect. My avatar is from my 250 last year and I don't know how to change it!

Thanks again for doing the footpeg brackets.

Marty

>I'm using a set of Custom Chrome pegs

I don't suppose you can post a picture before you swap them out?

>As to the hole, you were right. The second hole is perfect.

Marty is referring to a PM I sent him. He is 5'7 (I believe) and I predicted he'd use the second hole. Only people under 5'5 or 5'6 are likely to use the top hole. I'm 5'9 and am comfortable with either the middle or bottom position (yes, I admit it, I replaced the UFP1 with the UFP3s - "I'm not only the president of hair club for men, I'm also a customer"). Since the dissatisfaction with the stock floorboard is likely to be proportional to height, I suspect that the bottom hole will be the most popular setting overall!

>My avatar is from my 250 last year and I don't know how to change it!

Click profile at top of this screen (you have to be logged in), scroll to bottom, click "Show gallery," select desired picture, click Submit.

1. My 400 has the 500 rugs installed. The screws are the same because the dealer had to take them off a 500 along with some spacers behind the rugs to mount on my 400. The holes are in the same place too or the rugs wouldn't fit. He did not realize he needed the screws and spacers until he started to install my rugs and was good enough to borrow off a 500 in the show room.

2. This distance is the first thing I want to check / compare.

3. With the 500 spacers installed the rug is flush with the plastic to the outside of the rug.

I expect that with the standard 400 or 250 rugs some sort of spacer would be reguired to get the peg bracket at the right height and not compress the rubber it would be on.

So Fuzzy, you are saying that the spacers that are on the /500 were able to go on the /400 to fit the diamondplate onto? (they are thick aluminum washers, about a centimeter in diameter and 4 or 5 mm thick.) And that without the diamondplate, some additional spacer would be needed to elevate the bracket so it doesn't interfere with the plastic on the side. Is that a fair summary?

Mkaymond, what do you think? Could you use (even if only temporarily) a pile of individual flat washers stacked to create the necessary spacer? Without the diamondplate, is this going to create a situation where the bracket is sitting up high, with no support underneath except for the two spacers right around the screws, so it might wobble or shift? Maybe make the final, top washer one of those big fender washers? I got notified by the post office that your package arrived today (9/29) - I can't wait to know if they fit!

Thanks Fuzzy, we may want to pick your brain some more.

I have just received my UFPs and installed them on my MP3 400. I have the diamond plate floor boards from a 500 on my 400. I placed nylon spacers below the diamond plate to eliminate any chance of deformation when I installed them a few months ago. The UFPs fit with no problems. There is plenty of space.

Thanks Kirk,

1. What if you had no diamondplate? Could you make it work?

2. I see what looks like major tooling marks on the bracket - are they that noticeable, or is it another case of camera angle?

3. Do you have pegs to give 'em a try?

4. Did the OEM screw fit in front? (Since you installed diamondplate, was the screw in front still OEM?) Which screw fit in the back? (I gave Kirk both a 35mm and a 40mm screw for the back just in case one didn't fit)

5. The footpeg portion of the UFP3 is further offset than the UFP1. I did that in case the /400 had a wider floorboard, so the bracket would still fit. Looking at your top view, it looks like there is even MORE overhang on the /400. Is that correct?

Thanks for the great job Jeff.

1. Yes, I could make it work with the rubber floor mat. I would need the same nylon spacers that I used with the diamond plate or maybe a little longer.

2. I think the tool marks can be polished out with a little effort.

3. I don't have the pegs yet, but should soon.

4. I did not have any OEM screws. I had to purchase the screws separately.

5. Yes, it looks like I have more overhang than the originals.

So, it appears from Kirk's posts that the UFP3 is a success on the /400 - PROVIDED YOU HAVE DIAMONDPLATE INSTALLED. I have another experiment in-progress with a second /400 owner to see if that's also true with the stock /400 (and presumably /250) floorboard, so stay tuned.

Okay, it's not exactly a first draft of Da Vinci's design for a helicopter, but I was cleaning off my desk and came across this from three or four months ago. It's my sketch of a bracket that might attach a footpeg to an MP3.

[quote="rjeffb] A pair of brackets are waiting for you at your beck and call (what the hell is a "beck," anyway?)[/quote]

Beck is a short term for "Becoming" (summoning someone to you as if by order) and call means to call out or demand. In other words the person who has people coming to their "beck and call" is in control.

I'm just sayin'.

EDIT: Ignore this entire post! It was subsequently determined by faithful MV members that spacers are not required for the UFPs whether you are mounting them to a /500 with diamondplate floorboards or to a /400 withrubber floorboards.
------------------------------------
On the /500, the spacers under the diamondplate are as follows:

In front, 15 millimeters diameter, 4.36mm thick (.59" diameter, .172" thick). Clearance is tight, so no more than maybe .62" would fit. A 5/8" would probably just squeeze in.

In the back (middle), 18mm diameter, 6.5mm thick (.71" diameter, .254" thick). Several millimeters of extra room, a 3/4" wide by 1/4" thick spacer would substitute.

Both are aluminum, with generous clearance holes (>7mm). There is also a "rear" spacer but since the UFP doesn't go back there, I didn't measure it.

I have no idea if these would be the appropriate sizes for the /400 to mount a UFP, but they are the sizes on the /500. I should point out that there is also the diamondplate on top of that, which is almost exactly 0.10 inches thick. As a first guess, I would try a 3/4"x1/4" spacer in back (surely available at a hardware store), and several 1/4" thru or 7mm thru washers up front (but because it's at an angle, you'd have to figure out a way to keep them together before the screw is threaded thru). I'd top them both off with a 1/4" ID fender washer, as close to 0.1" thick as possible.

Not having a /400 in front of me to eyeball how the rubber floorboard works, I have no idea if this even makes any sense, but at least a potential /250/400 owners knows what is on a /500.

Beck is a short term for "Becoming" (summoning someone to you as if by order) and call means to call out or demand. In other words the person who has people coming to their "beck and call" is in control.

I'm just sayin'. [/quote]

Sorry, but beck and call might be a shortened form of beckon, a hand signal meaning come here, either a crooked finger or an arm extended palm up towards someone and bent from elbow or fingers towards the signaler.

Gotta get these things right or we wind up with:-
Tall =small,
Grande =medium,
Vente = large
Grrrrrrrrrrr.

Fay, can I offer you a set of footpeg brackets to go with that Tall Latte? :-)

I really really would love a set, given 5'7", tall for a girl, especially as a friend once said,
"If the Lone Ranger had a scooter, it would look like yours", and my propensity for playing theme tunes from the westerns very loudly over the sound system, but have you checked my location; far from the wide open prairies of the mid west or the arroyo's of the tex-mex border. I ride the ever changing canyons of London traffic, and your posts say strictly U.S.A.

I made myself a set of checker plate foot rests before I discovered the 500's would fit.

Fondest

Fay Presto.