Modern Vespa

which bike would you choose in this hypo scenario?

Vespa made in China by Italian people? or Vespa made in Italy by Chinese folks?

not to be racist of course...pero lets face it..if its from china,,theres discrimination by some.. and theres this "its gotta be made in Italy" vibe by others.. some call it "prefference" why is a bike given more value because of place of origin?

Personally, I do not think "preference" is due to the nationality of the manufacture worker, rather more with resources, materials, and quality provided by a particular country.

Definitely, not racism...

its great you think like that...
sometimes though..between a smoother running, easier on the left hand clutch, shifting lml ...and a "punk rock" "hassle" to drive 90's px...most would go with the px with the "coz its italian" answer... if that is "prefference" outside measurable quality tests, then what is the basis of their decision?

Before I retired, the company that I worked for imported big-ticket items from Italy and China. Although we had minor problems from time to time from the Italian factories, the problems from China were over ten times higher and overwhelming at times. The Chinese managers & workers just didn't seem to understand the concept of good quality as we knew it. They would cut corners at every possible opportunity and then, argue with me about how I should accept this because of their low prices. I would have to continually explain that we had a contract that explicitly spelled out the specifics of the quality of the materials and workmanship. We finally threw up our hands and canceled the contract. I have also dealt with a couple of Korean and Japanese factories: There were so few problems with the Japanese products that it was a non-issue but the Koreans were hit & miss where one container would be fine and the next would have a lot of issues. I suspect that China will slowly get better with manufacturing big-ticket items like scooters, cars, etc but from what I have read, they still don't get the concept of the quality level that must be met to satisfy customers in most parts of the world.

so its a reputation issue, where china fails...in terms of value, are you saying in the future, a vespa made in china vs one made in italy, with both having the same specs and degree of build quality standard can in the end be worth the same? were talking two vespas with "go ahead and try to spot the difference and tell me which is better" scenario. both excellent. they just have different badges..one made in china..and one made in italy...

I am not sure what you mean by "different badges". A Vespa is badged as a Vespa, and that badge is Vespa's statement of an expected level of quality.

The Chinese are fully capable of quality production. However, they charge more for that level of quality, and it is common and advised for a company to have an on-site quality assurance team at the Chinese plant if they want consistently good quality. The inexpensive Chinese POS scooters that come into the US are not manufactured to Piaggio specs, but local Chinese specs based upon a desired very low cost. And you get what you pay for.

I am sure that the $600 million in contracts that Boeing has placed in 2005 with Chinese aerospace firms is for components of relatively high quality.

Al

There is absolutely NO good reason that China could not produce a Vespa that was of the same quality level as one that was produced in Italy. If the same materials and machinery are used, it all comes down to attention to details for the fit and finish. The Italians have some occasional problems that we read about on this forum but overall, they make a pretty nice machine......but labor costs are much higher in Italy vs China and as has already happened with many products that used to be made in the USA, China will continue to improve and you can see the handwriting on the wall. With most products, manufacturing will almost always chase cheaper labor. The only products that won't are the top of the line, luxury products that cater to the high dollar crowd because those customers will always pay extra for "The Best". An example would be the piano industry in the USA. 90% of the manufacturers who were building pianos in the USA twenty years ago are no longer manufacturing pianos in the USA. Steinway Pianos has not reduced their quality level, their cost & retail prices continue to rise, yet they remain in business while the others have failed.

One would certainly hope so

I figured we'd let the 787 get a couple of years flight time before we book a flight on one. That is, if they ever launch it.

Al

Sorry I wouldnt want to ride anything made in China. You get what you pay for. A lady in our club has a Chinese scooter and its broke down on four rides with us. She no longer rides it because shes afraid of her next breakdown. I'd buy a used scooter if it came down to affordability. Oh yeah it has come to that for us. I have a used Vespa and my husband has a used KYMCO.
In the beginning of the year my husband worked 32 hr weeks then I worked 32 hr weeks for 10 weeks we finally got a few full paychecks and now he is back to the reduced workweek. It will be coming again for me before too long.
Too many jobs have been lost here in the USA due to outsourcing to China. Thank Wall St investors for worrying about the shareholders making money and sending all our jobs to China.

Dont worry, what goes around comes around. "For everything there is an equal and opposite reaction ."

What with the Piaggio plants in China and new one(s?) opening in Vietnam, the future riders of Vespa might not get much choice in the matter. As it is, I believe many parts on the recent Vespas are sourced from the Chinese plants, so what makes it "100% italian" exactly in our eyes? Under EU law, the product only needs to be assembled in the country for that to be it's "country of origin." That tells me that every single part on a Vespa could have been manufactured in China and I believe it could still be "made in Italy" at the end of the day (this isn't the case, as I understand it, but still worth noting).

You must understand that Piaggio has put a lot on the line with these far eastern plants - they stand to gain much more productivity than they could within Italy alone, but potentially face production quality issues. As a consequence, they are overseeing all those plants... not just saying "go get 'em guys, we want something which looks kinda like this"

From what I have read here, there are a few hints of some production issues in recent times, but by the same token I haven't read anything alarming.

Don't kid yourselves that a 2010 Vespa will only have parts entirely produced in Italy, but don't let yourself get terrified either. Ask our users with Chinese produced Fly scooters... they AREN'T a "chinese scoot" regardless of the fact the plant was located there.

Might be some small issues to watch for, but the difference is the oversight of the plant and the manufacturing standards, not the political border within which the product was made.

It goes farther back in time too... LML produces the Stella BECAUSE Piaggio had a partnership with them at one point

It all comes down to reputation.

China doesn't have a very good reputation of quality around the world. That point is proven in this thread.

If a business doesn't have a good reputation why would they be successful?

Italy has been building quality scooters for 60-70 years. A lot over 30 years old are still on the road as daily riders (I have one). Good reputation.

China is known to build cheap unreliable scooters with no customer service and an inability to acquire parts. Bad reputation.

I'm not saying China can't build quality scooters on their own, because they most certainly can. Its a very large country with a lot of talented people. They just haven't yet, or they have but haven't gotten them to the US and other countries, so people are skeptical. Can you blame them?

BTW - LML is Indian, not Chinese.

And I guess you feel Unions have no blame in this what so ever? It's ALL Wall Streets Fault? Those EVIL people investing their HARD EARNED money and they expect to make money, how evil of them. Give me a break.

Wayne B

I can recall a time when China wasn't even a factor as a source of manufactured goods, and people referred to "cheap Japanese crap." The Germans used to laugh at the Japanese photographing German cameras at international trade shows, and such American hi-fi firms as H.H. Scott and Fisher laughed at Japanese photographing American stereo electronics at the Consumer electronics shows. And Japanese cars? Give me a break! Honda's first entry in the American market was a tiny orange-and-black thingy that could fit in the trunk of a real American car!
Right now, manufacturers outsource to China because they want goods built to a price, more than to a standard of quality. This may change with time, if consumers will demand, or even perceive, the quality difference.

Earlier this year, While taking the wheel off my GTS I noticed that the wheel rims are made in China.

I changed them for Italian Grimeca's... believe me, I feel safer...

I also yesterday noticed that the side stand is made in India.

Apparently, the total wiring loom is also made in China..

Perhaps my GTS will end up in flames... Oh Dear..

While technically not part of China, Taiwan makes some damn fine machines, SYM and KYMCO to name two. They produce as good as or better than some European and Japanese companies.

Interesting bit of news. The increasing standard of living and higher costs of manufacturing (unionization) in China is forcing some companies to transfer facilities to Vietnam, Thailand and Tibet. Looks like they are following the example of the west.

Who says they are commies???

If I didn't know better from listening to Rush Limburger, I'd swear the Chinese were practicing free market capitalism.

Since the GTS is Italian and in part, made in China, where were the Italian Grimecas manufactured????

As I said in an earlier post in this thread: "With most products, manufacturing will almost always chase cheaper labor"

our local machinists would certainly disagree with that

Union greed verses Capitalists greed?

MMMMMMM

a bit like the chicken and the egg - both need each other or both loose -without decent wages people cannot pay the high markups upon which the "capitilists" make their profits.

But then the unionists want to buy "cheap", and end up shooting themselves in the foot - as the capitalists go to cheap labour to maintain their markup.......

Capitalism has its problems (perhaps greed) and socialism has its problems.

Maybe the end of cheap oil will balance the "offshoring" of work to some degree.

EVERYBODY is making stuff in China. Not just scooters, where you also have Japanese players and even Sym and Kymco making scooters in mainland China, but practically every consumer electronic product and beyond.

The difference is whether a company is willing to invest in a proper production and assembly line or willing to outsource the work to a pre-existing factory. All these crappy chinese scooters out there are stuff thats designed in China and then fly by night american companies have gone over there and paid to stick their name on them, with little regard to quality. You can pay these Chinese companies to make good quality products but then what do you have? You have a scooter that looks like the cheap crap down the road but costs as much as a name-brand bike, no one is going to buy that! I think Argo is a good example of that.

When a company goes over and creates a new factory or virtually takes one over with their own quality controls, supervisors, etc... the quality is comparably the same of that produced in any other country. Look at Apple computers and other high-end electronics that have reputable reputations despite being manufactured in China.

Those of us who are old enough to have been driving in the early 70s will remember very similar discussions between N.American automobiles and Japanese automobiles.

Its not the country nor the culture that matters. It is the company and its dedication to producing a high quality product.

Hey! I owned one of those Honda 600s (and it was even orange and black) back in the early 70s, and it was a great little car... definitely not a POS, or even a "thingy". I'd probably still own it if it hadn't been punted into oblivion by a hulking "real American car" with lousy brakes and an inattentive driver.

I fully understand the point of your post, but I think you picked the wrong example.

+1000

Another +1000

I had to look this car up. That's freakin' awesome.



Regarding PeterC's comment, you also have to realize that before Honda's movement to cars, they kicked the US's ass in building motorcycles. Its nothing to scoff at.

I still haven't figured out this whole "bigger is better" mentality a lot of Americans have. If you have this mentality why the hell are you on a vespa forum? Shouldn't you go ride a superglide somewhere? Not saying there's anything wrong with superglides, but if you have the "real American - bigger is better" mentality, it seems weird that you chose a vespa to ride.

by different bagdes i mean a badge stating where it is made...but with the same vespa logo..for example... two sienna GTV's, both with the vespa badge, both great quality..both true blooded gtvs,...but one is made in China, and the other in Italy.. will they have the same value in the future? if one were to be given to you free, what would you choose? and why?

Yep... that's exactly the car. 36 screamin' horsepower, SOHC air-cooled twin, a four-on-the-dash... and 10-inch wheels! (and we've got folks around here who insist that you need at least 12" wheels on a friggin' scooter!)

This little Honda would cruise the Interstates all day long at 70-75 mph (with the pedal to the metal).

Had a ute version of one of them - when it ran, it did ok........

Still prefer my Suzuki L60V - 500cc of two stroke neck-snapping power