Modern Vespa

@ScooterDiva posted a link (on Twitter, ya haters) to a Motorcycle.com article about the differing attitudes about gear in the US when compared with the rest of the world (though I get the impression they primarily mean Europe). The article contains some opinions there about personal freedoms, individual choice versus legislation and such-let's please try to avoid those highly-charged political topics as well as verboten discussions about helmet laws.

http://www.motorcycle.com/rider-safety/the-american-culture-of-motorcycle-safety-88716.html

The gist: Americans are least concerned about gear and safety when compared with other countries. What's interesting and salient here (to me) is that the article lumps scooterists in with motorcyclists. From reading the forums and other anecdotal evidence, I've always had the perception that American scooterists are much better geared up than our European and Asian counterparts. (This may be skewed by the fact that American scooterists on the forums are more likely to be concerned with safety and geared up than those at large.)

Still, the Europeans I've met and talked with rarely wear jackets of any type and have a rather liberal, cavalier attitude about safety. Case in point: I recently met a Spaniard who rode his LXV with a broken foot with his 5 year old son riding pillion. In blatant disregard for state laws, the child's feet were nowhere near the floorboard and he was far under weight requirements. They wore no gear other than helmets. Many American scooterists would find this appalling on a couple levels.

Similarly, most of the European riding gear specifically for scooterists is much more fashion oriented. It often uses lightweight or non-abrasion resistant fabrics. If there are built-in pockets for armor, the actual armor is often optional or a complete afterthought.

It was suggested in another thread that Vespa doesn't make protective riding gear because that may give buyers the impression that scootering is more dangerous than they think. Even the Piaggio/Dainese gear doesn't come with armor.

So if the article's main point about motorcyclists is true (Americans are least geared up and concerned about safety), is the converse true when it comes to scooterists? And why would that be the case?

Interesting idea/theory Eric (and thanks for the article btw). I was looking for a new FF helmet a few months ago and stopped into a long time bike shop that recently started carrying Genuine scooters. I looked over their helmets, not a single FF. When I asked if they ever carried any I was told "Well, we just started selling scooters this year and we don't have those types of accessories yet". So that shop is definitely in line with your thought that scooterists take gear a bit more seriously.

The article takes a kind of U.S. vs the world view, but I think if you are going to talk gear adoption and legislation it seems more like a Europe vs. the world discussion might be more applicable. I have no idea who's site this is, but I love the ingenuity displayed : http://aistigave.hit.bg/Logistics/ -- so evidently the safety regs are a even more lax in The East.

At any rate, thanks for posting the link to the article.

Oh lordy, I don't know how one could categorize "American scooterists:" there is such a vast diversity. I don't believe that the participants in this forum, for example, could be viewed as typical. By definition, we are more concerned with the details of scootering as a lifestyle, hobby, etc. In my community, there are far more people on scooters than are members of our local scooter club. For the general population, the scooter is a motorized shopping cart and errand runner. Riders usually wear 1/2 helmets, but often no headgear or just a ballcap or bandanna (this is the desert Southwest, with temps often into the 3 digits). Our scooter club tends towards protective headgear (FF or 3/4 helmets), armored jackets and appropriate footwear. But let's face it, what percent of scooterists nationwide have taken the MSF course, read Proficient Motorcycling, engaged in internet scooter forums, or even bothered to get a license or even riding instruction? It's one hell of a big universe right here in the States!

I think hemlet laws are universal in Europe, as everyone I have ever seen recently has been wearing them. Saw a lot of full face too.

I agree not as many armored jackets as scooterists in the US. On the other hand the sport bikes were geared to the hilt.

As far as kids on scoots- I think that a scooter is considered a reasonable form of transport in Europe and Asia as opposed to a death wish is it is here. I guess we manage to put children at risk by other means stateside.

I am in Spain again in November and I was googling around to see if I can find an accessory or scooter store to visit...anyway I come upon the Vespa site and they have a child seat as an option, certainly nothing you will see here. Sorry I can't find the link now, but it was in the accesories portion of the vespa site. I think I recall the recommended weight was as low as 14 pounds! (edit 14 kilos-that makes it much better )

I've got to say that I'd always thought pretty much the opposite way to Eric, above.

Purely based on my random dipping into posts on here, I'd got the impression that a significant number of US MVers, for example:

- are happy in jeans, t-shirts, trainers, etc (which shocked me, until I took into account that lots of you live in really hot and/or humid places)

- are often asking about how gear looks, rather than how safe it may be

- don't ride through the bad weather, and so see scootering as a fun summer pastime (again, I understand that you guys really do have properly bad weather, whereas we just have a bit of rain and cold that lasts all year.)

However, when I think about it again, I do quite often see other scooterists in the UK in suits and skirts, half-face helmets, etc.

So I suppose my considered answer would be that there's probably no difference. There will be folks either side of the pond who are safety-minded (possibly too safety-minded, and I'd probably include myself in that if i was being fair), as well as folks who are into scooting because of the fashion side of things, and those who think: "I can do 30mph on my bicycle, and I don't wear armour on that. Why should I wear armour on a scooter?".

I don't think nationality would have any significant impact on who's the most cautious: I think it's more down to individual attitiude.

In regard to helmets, the patchwork of state laws is definitely confusion to Europeans who's motor vehicle codes are federal. Since a minority of the states in the US have a 100% mandatory helmet law, that would definitely give the impression to a European of less emphasis on safety.

That said, Greece's helmet law is a little over a year old, and many still ride bare headed. But PTW's especially scooters, have been daily rides for a significant portion of the population for decades. The humor on the island before the helmet law was helmets were indeed important - - they identified tourists, who needed to be given wider berth on our roads. I would note, however, that even with a significant portion of the island population riding scooters, injury mishaps are not all that common amongst the natives. I'm sure the 50 kmh speed limits ( two short 60 kmh stretches) help.

As to apparel, since scooters have been around as routine transportation longer than riding apparel, and scooters have a several decades of being moderate speed daily ride use, the European culture is that dedicated apparel is not a scooter thing. In the US, PTWs are still primarily a discretionary recreational vehicle. I can see more Americans buying a $6,000 Vespa and a couple of hundred $$ in apparel. My tile man's apprentice has a FF helmet, but I doubt he has the discretionary income for Corazzo duds, and rides a 1500 Euro scoot. Nor do I think my neighbor, Flora, has any desire to "suit up" when she runs from her hotel to the supermarket 6 km down the road.

While the article you linked is very interesting, it is more anecdotal than quantitative. What would be worth comparing would be the fatality rates/100,000 miles PTW driven in the EU versus the US, especially in 100% helmet laws states. That might tell us something about safety differences. But, since the US is primarily recreational riders and we are predominantly daily riders, that may be a significant factor if there are differences. I recently read that the NHTSA reported in 2002 that the average PTW in the US was ridden 1,200 miles/year. That's not indicative of a lot of "daily rides" at that time.

Protective gear is not safety, as I have mentioned time and time again. It is mitigation against those times when safety is lacking.

Last, but not least, MV is a voluntary grouping of people with a common interest. It may very well be that we attract a disproportionate number of Toreador Pants people by the very nature of the price point of what we ride and the nature of the discourse here. Anyone who thinks MVers are a representative sample of the PTW or scooter population at large has never studied demographics or population sampling.

Edited to add: Oh, hell, I'll come right out and say it. While interesting, the article was not very authoritative nor scholarly. Great reading, questionable content and conclusions. Little contribution to the cause of safety awareness (safety versus survival gear).

Al

Yes, there is the aura of "death wish" or "very dangerous" in the US, and fatality statistics support it. However, since the majority of fatal PTW mishaps in the US involve causes within the rider's control, that image is self generated. The European attitude is not similar by any stretch. Yes, we have a couple of local friends who are "afraid" to ride on PTWs, but that is not the norm.

Al

I've been to several countries in Europe and Asia. I can say with the utmost confidence that Americans are no more or less safety gear oriented than any other group of riders in any other country. Hell, there are differences between countries within Europe alone.

Even if there are more "fashionable" safety gear options available in Europe, my personal observations are of as many t-shirt & shorts wearing Europeans on bikes as seen here on my side of the USA. The same goes for comparisons of neon-clad Power Ranger riders over "there" vs. "here". Just because Europeans have access to more fashionable safety gear it doesn't necessarily mean it's more widely adopted. Again, I've spent lots of people watching time on the streets of Paris, London, Barcelona, Tokyo, Fukuoka and Kyoto, and by no means have I seen any great differences of safety-gear use around the world.

The most noteable difference I've seen is the lack of fashionably hip beautiful ladies in herringbone or plaid skirts with go-go boots on scooters here in the USA. My fellow Americanos, in this arena, Paris and Tokyo kick our tasteless asses to the ground.

I recently moved from New Jersey to South Carolina
and the difference between NJ & SC attitudes is at least as large as between NJ & Europe

The state of NJ seems to have the attitude that all riders must have a death wish
and they should do what they can to keep us from dieing while riding

The state of SC, instead, seems to consider it absolutely none of their business

I'm still thinking about which attitude I prefer

I'm not sure... If I were to only judge from the photos and posts on MV, I'd say yes. I've noticed that american members on here wear a lot more safety gear than the people I see on the roads here. Most scooterists I see around Reykjavik don't seem to wear any safety gear except the helmet required by law. However, most people you see on motorcycles around Reykjavik are dressed up like they are about to exit the lunar lander. I've no idea why that is. Perhaps because most scooters over here are 50cc, tend to avoid busier roads and are therefore seen as a safer mode of transport.

This statement brings about another cultural point though. The percentage of women who ride (scooter or motorcycles) in Europe and Asia vs. the US is probably vastly different. So that's probably one of the reasons.

There are plenty of examples to contradict any type of sweeping generalization like this. MV members (for whatever reason) may not be the best sample either way.

The more telling indicators among riders I know seem to be what type of scooter someone rides and how long they've been riding. Vintage riders and newbies are less likely to wear jackets, more likely to wear half or 3/4 helmets. The top selling helmets for new riders in this area are the Nolan N30 and Fulmer 3/4. Though they're good lids, I suspect much of their popularity is due to style.

Still, I've always thought there are cultural (not national) differences in attitudes and use of gear. There's much more of a history and tradition of scootering in Europe, but often noted here scootering outside the US is more about practicality and transportation.

Something I often tell new riders (whose attitudes I shared when I was a noob), is that if they're concerned at all about safety, they need to disavow themselves of this romantic image of riding in a tiny helmet, track jacket or cardigan, canvas sneakers and a jaunty scarf.

That romantic image is a direct result of American interpretations of that European tradition. We've seen too many photos of fetching lasses in dresses and svelte, stylish men scootering down cobblestone streets in Italy. I'm sure that still influences my (mis)perceptions of European attitudes about gear. +1 on that. I'm not taking the article as anything more than perceptions and opinions, but think the comparison is interesting.

There are definitely regional differences in the US. There are regional differences in LA: the closer you get to the beach, the less likely you are to see gear. You might think, but I was surprised and impressed by the level of gear wearing at Amerivespa. Modern Vespas were dominant and many of the attendees are MV members. Most wore armored jackets and there were more FF/modular helmets than smaller ones.

Of course, one of the minor pleasures of AV for me was riding around the hotel lot sans helmet. Well, in full disclosure though I have a general interest in this, the topic has me thinking for other reasons as well. I'm working with a US company that's planning a line of outerwear for women. It's fashion-inspired and the designs run the gamut from more fashion-oriented with less protection to stylish but with a heavy emphasis on safety features. The line will be offered in the US and overseas, so it'll be interesting to see what sells better where.

Really interesting topic Eric! I believe a majority of both Canadians and Americans are generally in favour of using safety equipment provided it is properly priced, easy to use and does not restrict their safe enjoyment of whatever equipment, game or vehicle they may be using. While I am not in the US, I have done all of those things but I guess you could say I am betwixt and between when it comes to scooter safety gear. In Toronto, I wear all the gear most on MV would consider to be proper ... with the exception of a full face helmet. (I am still looking for one which I can stand to wear.) Here on Tortola, I ride in a t-shirt and shorts, different types of footwear (including flip flops at times) and an open face helmet.

The reason is the oppressive heat here in Tortola. I can't stand the heat and very nearly passed out while riding once (from heat stroke) when wearing my Tourmaster jacket. Thankfully, I was able to get off the scooter and lie down before I actually blacked out.

Everyone is different. Everyone has different tolerances to heat. Everyone has different requirements for fit, style, comfort and usability. If your body type doesn't happen to fit into the 60 to 70 percentile (for which the vast majority of safety gear is designed) ... then you are just supposed to suck it up and go with what is best for the majority regardless of how it affects you individually.

I believe the helmet laws represents good legislation. Beyond that, I think all governments need to stay out of it and let people make individual choices. The day they legislate that you MUST wear protective jackets, pants, gloves or anything else while riding a scooter or motorcycle ... is the day I will sell all of my scooters. When writing these articles or passing legislation, do they take the extra short, extra tall, very large or very small person into consideration? I don't believe they do. Almost everything is designed for the "average" person and those of us on the fringe are left standing at the sidelines.

As I mentioned to you privately Eric, I am short from the waist up and relatively long legged for my 5'2" frame. Every single car seat belt I have ever used comes directly across my neck! When the seat belt law was enacted in Canada many, many years ago, I went to my doctor and asked him what would happen to me if I were involved in a serious accident.

He came out to the parking lot, looked at my 1965 Pontiac Parisienne with me sitting in it with the belt done up. He told me I would likely be decapitated or at the very least very seriously injured. For the first few years after the law was enacted, I was able to get away with wearing my lap belt only and carrying around a letter from my doctor exempting me from wearing a cross chest belt due to "physical challenges". Any policeman who may have wanted to charge me for not wearing my cross chest belt was satisfied with the letter once I showed them how the cross chest belt fit. However, once I sold that car, there was nothing I could do. I HAD to wear the belt as they came as one piece rather than two separate pieces.

Thankfully, I have never had the misfortune to test out my doctor's theory, but I have no doubt I would be seriously injured or killed by my seatbelt were I involved in any serious accident. Unfortunately, I have no choice in the matter. It is the LAW! Thanks to the powers that be for looking out for my safety and making me wear it!!!

Whilst I certainly understand the writer's perspective and others (who sometimes become overly zealous when championing what they believe people should wear), I tend to believe that adults should have the right to their own choices. But since you are getting involved in the manufacture of safety gear, you may want to include requirements for those of us on the fringe and in hot climates as well!

Hey folks, let's stop calling gear "safety" items. Gear does nothing to prevent mishaps, and safety is the reduction of risk of causing a mishap. The stuff we are talking about is "protective" or "survivability" equipment which does nothing to reduce the probability of a mishap, but does increase, within design limits, some injuries resulting from a mishap.

I got on my soapbox on this at length here: https://modernvespa.com/forum/topic25332

Al

Great article/insights Eric.

I remember in my MSF course, they brought up the example of the bigger the bike, the less gear, and the smaller (e.g scooter) = more gear.

The misconception that some biker's have that they're somehow "safer" riding a hulking bike vs a smaller low cc bike, etc.

I'm right there on that soapbox with ya, Al!

Quoted from that article.
"But while fatalities among other roadway users have declined - particularly auto drivers, which in 2008 recorded the fewest deaths in 47 years - NHTSA contends that motorcyclist fatalities have increased steadily for the past 10 years even when factored for increased registrations."
Hmm, I wonder why fatalities have increased? MAYBE, because almost anyone can buy a motorcycle that can travel up to 200mph with little to no experience.

I always thought that Europeans would be far less squidlike than US (California) riders.
But.. on my last trip there the past summer (Austria, Swiss, Germany, Italy) I'd say they actually may dress worse. The cruiser doods wore the same pirate get up as here, the regular/sport bike doods had similar gear as in the US (California) but what was surprising was the vast number of riders wearing full gear but no gloves!

+1000

Have you ever tried picking your nose with gloves on???

I don't disagree with you, per se, but good gear can prevent an accident as well.

I have a nice nick in my face shield from a tire thrown rock. I would have certainly been blinded temporarily or permanently.

Motorcycle.com's article is a typical expression of how many Americans (and they must only mean NORTH Americans here obviously, right?) and Europeans arrogantly view the "world" as if it consists of the Anglo-ized Western type cultures alone! It's like when Microsoft or IBM blather about hooking up the "world" onto the web when about 80% of the world's people do not even have a telephone or have the service for it!

There are many many many many cultures where inexpensive scooters and cheap small cc motorbikes are a giant step UP in personal transportation, and safety gear is absolutely non-existent! These bikes are ridden sometimes with 4 or 5 family members crammed on them, all wearing loose fitting light clothing and flip-flops or sandals.

I've given up on taking seriously most of the typical BS one finds in USA and European MC and scooter magazines, and now in their web articles and blogs. Most of them are written by seriously ignorant and xenophobic people who think their own little part of the world is all there is, and express their ideas accordingly!

Actually, in safety terms, rg, you had a mishap - the rock striking you. The face shield mitigated the effects of that mishap - significantly!

Al

I was amazed about the armour which came as standard with my two Tucano Urbano jackets and the waterproof trousers. It was really awful and was replaced almost immediately. Several of the dealers I spoke to said that Italians just do not wear armour, their apparel seems to be more style driven. This statement would also appear to be borne out by the attire of the riders I saw in Tuscany.... t-shirts and sandals! I suspect that the opressive heat of the Mediterranean noon sun has much to do with that.

Over here, I am amazed at the number of motorcyclists and scooterists who ride this way in the summer. I too must admit that I frequently wear trainers and ordinary trousers. No gloves though? No way! I rarely if ever omit my armoured jacket. On the couple of occasions I have done so, it is to ride to my local high street and I have felt very naked. I won't be doing it again. I have encountered a Vespa GT rider on the last two morning's commute, who rides along in a pair of plimsolls in an open face helmet with no gloves chewing gum. I keep thinking to myself, what a twat. Maybe I need to get real, as he is probably looking at me, thinking what a twat that middle-aged guy is on that gold Honda SHitty.

You have to think about it?

As a former trauma nurse, I just don't feel comfortable without my gear. So I usually dress for the accident and not the ride. I am the same way in my car, I always wear my seat belt no matter how far or fast the trip.
That is to say I have ridden without armored pants (and just in jeans, never shorts), but never without a helmet (FF) and gloves. I have worn sneakers (trainers) but never sandals or flip flops, even for short trips.

Part of our American psyche is that we are not as used to seeing two wheeled conveyances on roads as the Europeans (and this includes bicycles). So while we are safely ensconced in our private air conditioned cages, we behave as if the world is ours.
I would probably feel better on a European road, because drivers there are used to seeing and reacting to PTW vehicles.
Other than that, if someone does manage to come up with a line of stylish protective gear with armor, then I am all for it. Especially if they come in petite sizes for those of us who are vertically challenged, but still have curves like real women.

I always knew I liked those folks from South Carolina!

Aviator47: Your thoughts in every post in this thread mirror my own. +++++++

I subscribe to the parka ( no armour) to protect ones Italian suit from road grime. Now that does need protection!!!

I get the impression ( possibly wrong) I dont live there ) that the US riders really get into "equipment".

I also find (personal experience, quite a few times) that with the exception of head trauma (which I also have) on a scoot you break limbs but dont die as by and large you are not going at the sportbike hyper speeds of mocycles, so there is an element of luck as in just how you go down.

I can say helmets have saved me and gloves from cuts but otherwise I hate gearing up like a motorcyclist, I might get mistaken for being a Rocker!!

Style is all and comes before a fall? LOL

And don't forget all those baby boomers who just woke up to have their mid-life crisis after seeing the movie "Wild Hogs". When I started riding (over 20 years ago), I could only afford a 500cc Honda. This new group is starting to learn to ride when the physical reflexes are slower, and they are doing it on massive Harley's.

MSF even produced a course call "Seasoned Rider". I got it for my HOG group, and made all the "Seasoned Rider's" (including my dad) watch it. They especially loved the eye test.

I think some of the differences in attitude about gear have to do with the ratio of cars/trucks/cages to scoots. In Vietnam and many other scooter-centric communities, the accidents that occur are more likely to be scooter to scooter as opposed to Hummer over scooter. As I understand it many of the scoots are smaller too.

This does not negate the fact that it doesn't matter of you fall off a Honda Cub or a Vespa GTV or a Harley, you are still going 30/50/100 miles per hour or more when you fall off.

As to the differences, I wonder if it's easier to pass a law in a single EU country or in the US where you basically have several levels of government, where the states have the freedom to not always follow the federal laws and a 'god-given right' in many minds to have the freedoms we enjoy.

[quote="BleuBelle"]As a former trauma nurse, I just don't feel comfortable without my gear.

Part of our American psyche is that we are not as used to seeing two wheeled conveyances on roads as the Europeans (and this includes bicycles). So while we are safely ensconced in our private air conditioned cages, we behave as if the world is ours.


I totally agree with you. As a former CCU/ICU nurse, I too can't ride without my gear. Unfortunately, I'm no longer able to be an organ donor, but I still want to protect what I got, within reason. Unfortunately, there's a HUGE gray area between alive and dead. I prefer to minimize the gray...

My impression from being in Spain and Germany is that other countries DO look out more for others on the roads. They drive trucks and busses, but not the massive, mega-tons of rolling steel that we get here. In our area, we've had a huge increase of cycle fatalities this year-almost all were hit by cars or vehicles that "didn't see them" or were breaking the law. The motorcyclists were almost all being responsible, law-abiding (mostly!) citizens in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's enough to make me cringe, AND put on my gear!

In Seattle, I notice that the scooters and motorcycles I encounter on my route/time tend to be geared up pretty well reflecting the probability that these folks are regular commuter and experienced. The moment I go home early or meet someone for lunch however, I see lots of shorts and flip flop students on 50cc's and kids on racing bikes wearing t-shirts. Today there was the guy on a chopper wearing a tiny 1/2 helmet, short sleeve shirt and army BDU pants that had been turned into shorts who couldn't handle his bike through basic traffic. Then I take a weekend trip and it's mostly touring bikes with people in boots, leathers, etc. So I don't think any generalization about culture that makes any sense. It's more about things like experience, purpose of the riding, sub-culture of the model and style of machine, etc.

May I suggest a serious case of arse about front-itis?

The weather is not nice in CA because all wear shorts!

Think instead that those near the Med may be doing short slow journeys in high heat.

Non-near_the_med-riders (North West Europe/USA) are doing more/faster miles (extra-urban) in lower temperatures/less predictable conditions so feel the need to wear the gear.


Old Mod
>I hate gearing up like a motorcyclist, I might get mistaken for being a Rocker!!

100%, or being mistaken for a PowerRanger!

PS, the Parka I wore at age 15 is still too big, now age 40

exactly. i moved from seattle in june so have seen the riding culture on two coasts (plus japan).

seattle has a wide mix: commuters and the old at heart (that would be me after being the one doing the skin grafting and suturing in the OR) in high-viz/the full getup, pirates on cruisers, squids in shorts and a fullface, urban hipsters on 50s in tight jeans, a polo, and a 3/4 lid... you name it, they're out there.

long island has a different, narrower mix, as it's hotter, has a decent commuter rail system to the city, and apparently has many 45 year old men who have always wanted to blat around town on expensive custom choppers. i see many more squids in wife beaters, jeans, and that fullface ripping around on their literbikes, and there's also the usual cruiser/pirate crowd augmented by the high-priced custom machinery, too. the people who gear up are vanishingly rare outside of club rides, on the other hand.