Modern Vespa

Coming up on 3K, need to get nonfunctional gas lid fixed. Sounds like a J Costa opportunity.

My local shop says they have everything needed, I sent them a link to some excellent pages here on M.V. and they say they are good to go including the variator tool, but they don't stock the J. Costa and I will need to buy it elsewhere and bring it in with me.

The mechanic is saying that it is CRITICAL that I replace the belt with a kevlar unit (I assumed the stock belt is kevlar, is that wrong?) at the same time, that they need to "break in" together. I have not seen mention of this anywhere on these forums. I should add that they would prefer me to buy the belt on my own as well, and there's a flat fee for the variator install, so it's not like they are trying to sell me something. Thoughts and experiences?

You'll be fine with your current belt. All Piaggio belts are Kevlar anyway - they just don't make a song and dance about it. Your mechanic doesn't sound too clued up on scooters...

+1

OK, I ordered it - without the belt. I'll print this page and bring it along to the mechanic.

Hey scootertrap guy - what's the dif between the cheap belt and the expensive belt on your site?

Don't know but from what I have been told, ALL modern belts since 1998 are Kevlar. Tell me if I'm wrong.

I have 18.5k km on my belt, rollers and clutch. I did an inspection several weeks ago and they are all still within spec. as much as I can tell from factory data. The clutch was glazed so I roughed it up and it made a difference in that clutch judder that seems to be common after about 10k km.
I have a belt and rollers on hand when they are ready to be replaced.

Information from a friend who does Piaggio repairs says with judicious riding you should get at least 20 - 25k km on your belt and rollers.
Contrary to OEM recommendations.
Again it depends on how you run the equipment.

You will love the J Costa. It's a fantastic upgrade.

Thanks everyone. Something just occured to me - if it costs (for example) $130 for a belt and $200 for labor to change a belt, it would actually be cheaper for me to buy a new belt now anyway since installation is going to be essentially free (already included in the cost of changing the variator). But if it costs $130 for a belt and $20 for installation, then I'm clearly better off waiting, assuming that there's no technical reason the belt has to be replaced with the variator, because I'll get at least another 3,000 miles out of it (or potentially considerably more if EN82pg is correct).

So: have any U.S. folks here had a shop change the belt by itself? What was the labor cost?

Why not wait till 6,000 miles to change the belt and install the J Costa? Seems like that would make the most sense.

Wayne B

Change the variator and belt now and keep the one you have as a spare. That's what I would do.

Also, ALL belts are not kevlar.... but most are. The kevlar is actually ribboned through the inside of the belt to prevent stretching. While the makers of these belts do not offer up their recipe, companies like Malossi and Polini say they offer more than the OEM ones. Hope this helps!

Matt C.

>Why not wait till 6,000 miles to change the belt and install the J Costa? Seems like that would make the most sense.

Because the trike is going in for warranty service anyway. Waiting for 6k was indeed the original plan. But I only put 2700 on it for the entire summer (purchased in May) so at that rate we're talking 2011 before the upgrade, and I have tremendous difficulties on the /500 at very slow speed. Riding the brake like Jim recommends helps, but damn it, I shouldn't have to do that - the transmission should engage smoothly enough to power through a slow turn on its own. Put it this way: the stock /500, without using the brake, is horrible, bordering on downright dangerous. Riding the brake on the /500 is about as controllable as my Shadow using just the throttle. The Shadow, using the throttle and riding the clutch, gives me pinpoint control - I can make the torque sing through a slow turn. That's what I want in an MP3; it's frustrating to have an extra wheel and still not be able to finesse a turn as well as a "lesser" motorcycle.

From what I have read, I have great expectations of the J Costa in this regard. If I lose some engine braking as the tradeoff, well, maybe I'll regret that if I move out of New Jersey to someplace that has actual mountains.

>Change the variator and belt now and keep the one you have as a spare. That's what I would do.

No offense Matt, but you could have a proprietary interest in that (of course I purchased the variator thru ScooterTrap). If the money works out, then your proposition makes sense. Which returns me to: just how much does the installation cost? I will let the numbers dictate what I will do.

>The kevlar is actually ribboned through the inside of the belt to prevent stretching.

I was reminiscing about this a few days ago. My first "bike" was a 1978 Motobecane moped, bright orange and belt-driven. It was all I could afford and was my sole means of transportation, rain or shine. Except when it rained, the belt stopped working. Only the absolutely cheapest, lowest-powered bikes used belts. Up from that were chains, and a few motorcycles up in the stratospheric area of 800cc were just starting to have shafts. How technology has changed; I was looking (just looking, mind you) at some BMWs and Motoguzzis for $15,000-$20,000, belt-driven.

BTW you didn't answer my question: what do I get for the extra $20 for the more expensive belt?

[So: have any U.S. folks here had a shop change the belt by itself? What was the labor cost?]
I just had my dealer replaced the OEM rollers with the Dr. Pulley slider weights so they replaced the belt for me for FREE. Otherwise, I they would charge $50 for labor to change the belt alone. Check out the link below posted by Joe Bulva with illustrations. Once you read through it, I think you might consider changing the belt yourself since it's pretty simple.

https://modernvespa.com/forum/topic47985?highlight=costa+install

The OEM belt is GBP10 cheaper here...

The OEM variator is like a bag of nails compared to the silky smooth J Costa. That should sort your low-speed issues - and remember, even with that, the 500 will need more of a conscious counter-steer at slow speed than a lighter bike. Very easy to get used to once you've got rid of the horrible grundling of the OEM variator. Now imagine what the original X9 owners had to put up with - with a 6-roller one instead of the newer (since 2004) 8-roller one. That's the era when the phrase 'strangled sealion' was invented.

>Otherwise, I they would charge $50 for labor to change the belt alone. Check out the link below posted by Joe Bulva with illustrations.

https://modernvespa.com/forum/topic47985?highlight=costa+install

Thanks, that was the exact link I had sent to the mechanic.

So a new belt costs between $120-$140; it supposedly lasts 6000 miles; there is (according to the experts here) no need to replace it solely because the variator is being replaced. I would save $50 by replacing it now "for free"; it has 3000 miles on it, so it has about 50% of its life left; if a belt with 100% of its life left is worth $120-$140, then this belt is worth $60-$70. That's a installation-versus-value difference of only $10 or $20. Jeesh, I wish the installation cost either $10 or $100, that'd give me a clear logical choice!

Hmm, new topic: is there a compelling difference between the OEM belt and the various "upgrades"? (E.g. some of you may recall that my belt smoked after just a minute of getting unstuck from the mud - I found that really unnerving - is that the sort of thing that a "better" belt would avoid?)

What 'better' belt? There isn't one. You could get the old belt replaced and use it as a spare - remember to mark its original direction of rotation.

Okay, so email from scootertrap said they will let me order the belt and they will combine orders for shipping purposes (i.e. cheaper). that did it for me so I will have both installed and keep the older as a spare as suggested. My mechanic will no doubt be happy since that was what he wanted all along.

New question, since I sort of turned this into a belt thread. Lately, topping my steep hill and making a slow turn onto my street, or making a slow turn under combined throttle and brake, the tranny or rear tire is emitting a swooshing/squealing sound until the trike goes back to vertical. It started happening about the time I smoked the belt (2000 miles) but only became routine 500 miles later. I will of course demonstrate to the mechanic and check to see if it disappears after the variator and belt change, but I am curious as to its origin. It is loud enough to notice, but quiet enough that if it had happened from day 1 I would have assumed it was a normal operational sound.

u tube it so we can here and see what you are doing

You're saying you smoked your belt, I think your guess is wrong. I think you smoked the clutch.
I went up a really steep, rough dirt road that I had to go real slow. When I got to the top if felt like the real wheel was spinning in the grass, it was the clutch slipping, I could smell clutch.

Also, nothing against www.scoottrap.com, but why are you buying a aftermarket belt that has been proven to not last as long as the OEM belt???
There have been multiple aftermarket belt failures at around 3,000 miles. Get the OEM belt from the dealer that will be doing the installing.

Wayne B

>You're saying you smoked your belt, I think your guess is wrong. I think you smoked the clutch.
I went up a really steep, rough dirt road that I had to go real slow. When I got to the top if felt like the real wheel was spinning in the grass, it was the clutch slipping, I could smell clutch.

Also, nothing against www.scoottrap.com, but why are you buying a aftermarket belt that has been proven to not last as long as the OEM belt???
There have been multiple aftermarket belt failures at around 3,000 miles. Get the OEM belt from the dealer that will be doing the installing.

Wayne, thanks but a bit late, I already placed the order. I had asked about this in another thread ("Stuck in the mud," <https://modernvespa.com/forum/topic52693?highlight=>) and the only suggestion (from OAD) was that I had glazed the belt. Being a chain-and-sprocket motorcycle guy, this is all new to me. A conventional clutch, submerged in oil, will smell burnt but never actually smoke (well, unless you REALLY overdid it!) but I did ask about my clutch. And I wonder if this is related to my "wooshing" sound. I'll try to record the sound but that's going to be an interesting endevour. The closest thing I can compare it to is the gurgling/sucking sound a garbage disposal makes, but not nearly as loud. I don't have the classic symptom of a bad clutch/torque converter - maxing the throttle and seeing the tach redline while the vehicle slowly accelerates - but again, I don't know if that sort of experience applies to the MP3.

I have to say that if an MP3 clutch will experience damage from a minute or two of spinning the rear wheel in mud, that is not a very good recommendation for the vehicle (or any vehicle that behaves that way), far more delicate than a wet plate clutch or torque converter. I witnessed a car clutch being burned out (watching someone learn how to start from a stop on a hill), but the tires were on dry pavement, not spinning; and it is standard procedure to get a rear-wheel drive car out of mud or icey snow by applying slight emergency brake while goosing the gas, and I've never damaged a car clutch or automatic tranny that way either.

Other than redlining while applying full rear brake, I don't think I could burn out a conventional clutch on a motorcycle if I tried. I guess they don't use centrifugal clutches in any dirt bikes!

As far as the differences between belts, I did inquire what you get for the different prices. Whether fact or fiction, Scootertrap says the cheaper of the 3rd parties "doesn't loosen as much as OEM" and I still don't know what's supposed to be more desireable about their most expensive 3rd party belt.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and presume that the clutch and the variator are two different components, but the clutch can be checked during the variator replacement, yes? How much did your clutch cost to repair?

yes the clutch is on the back portion of the belt and the variator is the front, if you do a search for the vari replace by joe bulva he has some great pics posted.

I didn't say it damaged the clutch. I said you smoked it, not good for it but as long and there aren't blueish hot spots on the bell just use a scotch bright pad on both bell and clutch pads to get any glaze off. Might have to use emery cloth on the bell.

Wayne B

[quote="Wayne B"]I didn't say it damaged the clutch. I said you smoked it, not good for it but as long and there aren't blueish hot spots on the bell just use a scotch bright pad on both bell and clutch pads to get any glaze off. Might have to use emery cloth on the bell.

Wayne B[/quote]

What about your experience? What ultimately happened?

I had no problem after my experience. I let it cool down for about 10 minutes and never had an issue.

Wayne B

Well, it's at the shop. They say they've installed over a dozen JCostas, and I reminded them to mark the direction of the old belt (thanks Jim for that tip).

I tried recording the "sound," and here's what happened. With a pocket camera tied to the rear handhold and tucked in between the handhold and the pillon seat, I went down and up the hill. It made the screeching sound but not as loudly as usual. When I played it back, the screech was completely absent. However, at the moment I had heard the screech begin up in the driver's position, the playback had a dramatic increase in that grundling sound the variator makes - easily a tripling of volume. My working theory is that at low speed/high load, something about the variator rollers begins making a new sound, which filtered through the body of the trike comes to my ears as a screech.

I'll confirm or bust that hypothesis in a few days when the trike rolls out of the shop with the new variator. If I am right, the sound will have disappeared.

Flexes and clicks fingers, makes incantations - it will!

Story continued at <[topic54975#759973] Short summary: get a J. Costa.