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CORSA IFP wrote:
EN82pg wrote:
You don't do this on a scoot?? What the hell are YOU riding???
I don't speak emoticon, much less multiple ones.

I do it on a scoot but from the tone of the person asking the question it seems she doesn't.

Maybe she can come in and explain countersteer.

Not to mention no, I don't downshift on a modern scooter (do sometimes on my vintage) and I also don't look to get that scooter from 70 to 90 in a hairy situation, but it's also more likely that on a scooter I'm in the right lane, instead of in the middle or left, which also gives me an out (emergency lane) BECAUSE I know I don't have the power to tap into to get out of the sitch.

But since you asked I've got a 90+ mph vintage P200, a 120+ mph 73 RD 350 2-stroke, and currently a 1000cc Ducati I have no idea how fast it goes.

Any more questions?

Hey you guys can go ahead and tell someone to "go for it" and that learning to shift is "easy" when it's pretty clear the OP doesn't know much about motorcycles or the principles of riding them. You can also attend the funeral.

I would never and I never have recommended anyone get anything over a 250cc motorcycle for their first street bike. There's too much to learn to have to learn it on something that can get from 0-60 in a couple of seconds.

250cc first, ride it for 5000 miles then upgrade. Period. Anyone who doesn't have the patience for that and want to learn the I will not recommend they get a motorcycle - plain and simple.
Can I just say, that despite the tone of CORSA IFP, I know what he is getting at. (Correct me if I'm wrong here)

All he is saying, is don't assume that because you've ridden for a certain amount of time on a 200cc scooter which is an auto, very light at 308 pounds, and also very user friendly, that you can go and get an 850cc manual 400 pound bike and think that it'll be pretty much the same just bigger.

I've ridden a GT200 for over 5 years in all weather and conditions, done long day trips etc, but I wouldn't just go and hop on a ducati monster on a whim, even though I'd love to, because i love the look of it.

I would start out on something smaller, more forgiving, and more user friendly. I see so many people on bikes they shouldn't be on.


I used to think that an R6 was a cute little bike, but it's not - do something wrong and it'll kick the sh!t out of you and laugh.

I know the Bonnie is differnt to an R6, but my point is if you want to get into bikes, start from the start, and you will find that when you do get on a bonnie, you'll enjoy it so much more.

I don't see any reason to rush to get on a big bike....



Just my humble opinion.
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Desmolicious wrote:
Big Foot wrote:
The 2009 Moto Guzzi V7 Classic, Now there's a bike.
The 2009 Moto Guzzi V7 Cafe, Now there's a bike.

Tough choice though...Which one...Hmmmm...
I'd pick the Classic. Mechanically they are identical - kinda slow, so you might as well get the one that is better for cruising - the Classic.

I sat on one at Dave's shop in Sherman Oaks. Damn is that thing beautiful.
I'd pick it before a Monster as a first bike.
A friend of mine won an LX50 in the recent "Twisted Wheel Rally" and traded
it up to the Moto Guzzi V7 Classic, Lucky bugger and he still kept his GTS too.

The only thing I don't like about the V7 is there is no centre stand,
Not sure if there is an option to get one or not either.

But you are right though, That is one really sweet bike,
Better than any BMW I've either owned or ridden.

Cheers!

Dave
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Punto wrote:
Can I just say, that despite the tone of CORSA IFP, I know what he is getting at. (Correct me if I'm wrong here)

All he is saying, is don't assume that because you've ridden for a certain amount of time on a 200cc scooter which is an auto, very light at 308 pounds, and also very user friendly, that you can go and get an 850cc manual 400 pound bike and think that it'll be pretty much the same just bigger.
Yup, I agree
I was only objecting to his tone,
as I now realize, he was objecting to mine

I learned to ride at 50 mumble-mumble and on a GT200,
which was my 1st powered 2-wheeler, ever
This was definitely needlessly exciting

As I probably should have explained earlier,
there was a beautiful lady in my Basic MSF class
who was having a lot of trouble learning to ride her Ducati

Apparently shifting her Ducati required a lot more finesse & skill
than shifting the motorcycles of any of my other classmates

That's why I wasn't interested in learning on a Ducati
And that's why I was trying to figure out if the Triumph had similar quirks
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Well, if you are still interested in the Trumpy, maybe go here and talk to the people who own one themselves??

They might be able to offer you some sound advice having knowledge the in's and out's of the bike.

http://www.triumphtorque.com/messageboard/



Good luck with your decision, and remember to ride within your limits if you do get a bike.


8)



On a side note, I must say it is rather ironic that a vespa rider wants to ride a triumph, because back in the 60's these two riders where arch rivals.

the mods were on the scoots, and the rocker where on BSA, Triumph and the like, and the rockers hated the scoots.


How times have changed.
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L from Jersey wrote:
there was a beautiful lady in my Basic MSF class
who was having a lot of trouble learning to ride her Ducati

Apparently shifting her Ducati required a lot more finesse & skill
than shifting the motorcycles of any of my other classmates

That's why I wasn't interested in learning on a Ducati
Every Duc I've owned and ridden has shifted perfectly. No quirks.
Taking the basic MSF class by someone new to riding, and picking a Ducati as their bike is the problem.

Sounds like this lady put the carriage before the horse.

No matter, even if you've been on a scoot for years I'd still recommend something small, cheap and USED as your first moto!
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had a Honda touring motorcycle (PC 800)....down to just my GT200 now.

i find it just more fun.
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L from Jersey wrote:
That's why I wasn't interested in learning on a Ducati
And that's why I was trying to figure out if the Triumph had similar quirks
I believe all motorbikes have quirks one way or another. You'll only really find out the quirks after riding one for a while. I'm sure you'll get around them somehow. Also, the 250cc bike you rode on the MSF course may not feel very powerful but it may not be representative of all 250cc bikes as bikes come in various configurations other than engine displacement capacities.

I learnt on a Honda Hornet 250cc which is learner-legal here in NZ (learner license holders are restricted to 250cc) but in my opinion not learner-friendly. Despite having "only" a 250cc displacement she has four cylinders and four valves per cylinder, and has an engine compression ratio of 11.5:1 which ultimately produces 40bhp - and that's only because it's being restricted to that by some weird Japanese protocol. I remember thinking to myself... man, if this is a learner bike, I would never want to graduate to a "proper" bike since I intend to live for another half a century or so!

Interestingly the Vespa GTS 300, which has a 278cc engine and therefore not learner-legal, produces just over half that horsepower (22bhp).
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I lust for the scrambler, has steve mcgueen written all over it
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pomansvespa wrote:
I lust for the scrambler, has steve mcgueen written all over it
A Triumph Scrambler?
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
Nice!
..But what's to keep the exhaust from burning your leg?
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Another interesting one from Triumph--a cafe racer:
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
(The Thruxton)
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L from Jersey wrote:
pomansvespa wrote:
I lust for the scrambler, has steve mcgueen written all over it
A Triumph Scrambler?
We have a Triumph Bonneville, a Triumph Scrambler, a Vespa GTS 250 Super, a Vespa GT 200 and a variety of other bikes. They're all good! The modern Triumphs are as reliable as a Honda, and have lots of retro character. Any tinkering you are doing is to customize it to your personal taste, not to fix problems with the bike.

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L from Jersey wrote:
Another interesting one from Triumph--a cafe racer:
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
(The Thruxton)
That's a beauty. AND, really retro.
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bonneville...
If you're comfortable tearing around on your 200, you should give a try to whatever you like within reason. The new Bonneville with the alloy wheels is a very nice machine and should need less tinkering than an older one. Probably a good idea to learn shifting on a used machine, perhaps an advanced course loaner as you suggested. Good fortune.
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Hey Neducati, how does the Scrambler compare with the Bonny? Being short (5' 6") I found the Scrambler seat just a bit high. I also found the pipe a bit warm, though not really a burn danger. And the damn tires were noisy, though they did handle well on paved roads. I loved the engine and tranny. I thought the Scrambler was surprisingly fun to ride on curvy roads. Is the bonneville a nice bike around town and in the twisties? I think the seat is a bit lower than the Scrambler, and the pipe is certainly out of the way. Is the motor similar to the Scrambler? Having previously ridden a 600cc sport bike I was surprised by how much I enjoyed the 900 cc motor on the Scrambler. What's your overall feeling of the scrambler versus the Bonny?
Thanks,
JR
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Neducati wrote:
L from Jersey wrote:
pomansvespa wrote:
I lust for the scrambler, has steve mcgueen written all over it
A Triumph Scrambler?
We have a Triumph Bonneville, a Triumph Scrambler, a Vespa GTS 250 Super, a Vespa GT 200 and a variety of other bikes. They're all good! The modern Triumphs are as reliable as a Honda, and have lots of retro character. Any tinkering you are doing is to customize it to your personal taste, not to fix problems with the bike.
Nice collection you have there!
8)

Good info, thanks!
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Stay away from Ducati unless you are ok with spending a lot of money on upkeep. The Triumphs are considered ultra reliable. After all, this is 2009, we shouldn't to expect to fiddle with bikes constantly like the old days.
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L from Jersey wrote:
there was a beautiful lady in my Basic MSF class
who was having a lot of trouble learning to ride her Ducati

Apparently shifting her Ducati required a lot more finesse & skill
than shifting the motorcycles of any of my other classmates

That's why I wasn't interested in learning on a Ducati
I finally remembered the details
Her Ducati had a dry clutch instead of a wet clutch

I guess this used to be common for some types of Ducati motorcycles?
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L from Jersey wrote:
L from Jersey wrote:
there was a beautiful lady in my Basic MSF class
who was having a lot of trouble learning to ride her Ducati

Apparently shifting her Ducati required a lot more finesse & skill
than shifting the motorcycles of any of my other classmates

That's why I wasn't interested in learning on a Ducati
I finally remembered the details
Her Ducati had a dry clutch instead of a wet clutch

I guess this used to be common for some types of Ducati motorcycles?
It still is. Most Ducatis have dry clutches. It is a hand me down from racing, as with dry clutches there is no chance of clutch material contaminating the oil. Also there is no loss in powah due to oil drag on the clutch. You can also change clutch plates etc in minutes w/o needed to drain any oil. All very handy for racing but not necessary for a road bike, but it's one of those things (like desmodremic valves) that makes a Ducati a Ducati.
The dry clutch Ducatis tend to require more effort to pull in the lever - even though the action is very smooth - and this makes it a harder bike to take the MSF course with than a smaller bike with a lighter clutch. There are quite a few Ducs now that have wet clutches, and those are easy to pull in.
Bottom line, if you don't know how to ride etc, you want to take the course on the lightest simplest shifter bike you can. Something that you don't mind so much if you drop it whilst practicing the drills.
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Desmolicious wrote:
L from Jersey wrote:
L from Jersey wrote:
there was a beautiful lady in my Basic MSF class
who was having a lot of trouble learning to ride her Ducati

Apparently shifting her Ducati required a lot more finesse & skill
than shifting the motorcycles of any of my other classmates

That's why I wasn't interested in learning on a Ducati
I finally remembered the details
Her Ducati had a dry clutch instead of a wet clutch

I guess this used to be common for some types of Ducati motorcycles?
It still is. Most Ducatis have dry clutches. It is a hand me down from racing, as with dry clutches there is no chance of clutch material contaminating the oil. Also there is no loss in powah due to oil drag on the clutch. You can also change clutch plates etc in minutes w/o needed to drain any oil. All very handy for racing but not necessary for a road bike, but it's one of those things (like desmodremic valves) that makes a Ducati a Ducati.
Sounds really cool!
..But definitely not what I'd want for my 1st motorcycle

You have to use their motorcycles (mostly Honda Rebels) for the NJ MSF class,
which would be my only experience with a motorcycle, thus far

I'll be taking the class again,
well before I purchase or ride another motorcycle
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Some people complain that shifting a dry clutch is touchier than a wet.

I think it's an individual taste sort of thing. I could take it or leave it.
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G Clown emoticon Go corsa go! I'm with you.
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TheO.Z. wrote:
Some people complain that shifting a dry clutch is touchier than a wet.

I think it's an individual taste sort of thing. I could take it or leave it.
I haven't noticed anything touchier (guess it depends on how you define touchy). Of course all my bikes except for the Duc are cable assisted and the Duc is hydraulic so that's a huge difference.

With the dry clutch it's more susceptible to burning out or wearing plates if you use it in traffic a lot, which is why my Duc isn't my commuter bike (and really there's no beating an RD for commuting - so much fun - it's fast as hell and small enough to lane split easily). I rarely use the clutch on the Duc after starting off in first - just rev match and shift clutchless.

'course I do that in the RD too.

That dry open clutch sure will announce your presence though. People constantly ask "What's wrong with your bike?"
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No Clutch option
CORSA IFP wrote:
chad wrote:
don't be scared to shift. it takes all of about 10 minutes to learn how to do it.
That's misleading. It may take 10 minutes to understand the principles, but to learn how? To know when to downshift, when to upshift, when to jump down three gears in order to accellerate out of a bad situation, how to shift in a corner if necessary without locking up your rear wheel, how to rev match when you downshift so you don't throw yourself off the bike, how to modulate your clutch, etc, etc takes many many many miles of riding.

I've said it before: if you were required to drag a knee or scrape a peg during a MSF before being passed there'd be a lot fewer accidents involving bikes.

People do not drag knees or scrape pegs because they are scared the bike will fall over. As long as you are scared then the bike owns you, rather than you owning the bike.
If you really want to learn shifting take a msf course. If you don't Buy a Mana 850
Mana 850 by Aprilia
Mana 850 by Aprilia
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That helmet does not look like it's properly on his head!
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Re: No Clutch option
Mainus 69 wrote:
If you really want to learn shifting take a msf course. If you don't Buy a Mana 850

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
Is he a Mod or a Rocker? Maybe... a Mocker? Or a Rod... 8)
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The Mana's seat height is 31.5"

..That's all I have to say
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A really nice lightweight motorcycle is the Moto Guzzi V7 Classic. It's low, lightweight and feels much smaller than a 750cc motorcycle. It reminds me of what BMW's were like before they became the behemoth's that they're now become.

*And yes, I would take the course again on a 250cc bike so you can learn to shift without having to worry about dropping a new bike that you just spent a bunch of money to purchase. Either that or buy a small, cheap, used motorcycle to practice on for a couple of months. A motorcycle is sooooo much different than a scooter (besides the shifting part). The engine weight is more forward and the handling characteristics are different enough to warrant some practice before just moving from a TNG scooter to a motorcycle. It's easy enough to shift but it will feel strange for a short period of time until it becomes routine for you.
*BTW: I sat on a Mana but it just didn't feel right for me and I'm 6'1"with a 33" inseam.
Good luck with your decision.
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Re: No Clutch option
WaspLover wrote:
Mainus 69 wrote:
If you really want to learn shifting take a msf course. If you don't Buy a Mana 850
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
Is he a Mod or a Rocker? Maybe... a Mocker? Or a Rod... 8)
Fuggin fugly, IMHO! Nerd emoticon
Tank points down, pipe points up, and the rider looks squeezed into that seat like a hotdog inna bun! How in the world can he move his butt around even an inch there?
And that fugly design; where's the flow of lines?
Ugh! Razz emoticon
(I don't think I like it, eh?) Laughing emoticon
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My Friend Has an Aprilla Shiver... it is BADASS, a wheelie monster, and I think, quite beautiful. It's been compared to a Ducati Streetfighter. It sounds amazing too.

Nothing is better than my oldschool Crotch Rocket, Honda CB 750!
Shiver Back
Shiver Back
me on Honda CB 750!
This thing really hauls ass & sounds like an angry 500 pound killer bee
me on Honda CB 750! This thing really hauls ass & sounds like an angry 500 pound killer bee
Shiver Front
Shiver Front
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L from Jersey, Getting a 250 to learn on is good advice, however if you do go down that route be aware there are also some pretty flogged 250's out in the market (at least in Aust) Also you might outgrow a 250 in a few months resulting in a wasted purchase. Well at least you could use it as a commuter so if it gets trashed no worries.

Have you considered a Yamaha XVS650 (V-Star or Dragstar)? Style wise it's not very classic looking and could not hold a mirror up to the Bonnie but the V-Star has some good points. It's a learner legal bike in Aust. (Under LAMS) because of the good power to weight ratio and friendly if you make mistakes. Its shaft driven so no chain maintenance. And it's a V-twin, so if you stick a new set of pipes on it, it will sound awesome.

Take my advice with a grain of salt. I am not a riding instructor nor have I seen you ride. For all I know a Bonnie might be a perfect fit and will be a lifetime purchase for you.
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Re: SSR: Such a Cute Little Motorcycle!
L from Jersey wrote:
It's a Triumph Bonneville SE
It has a 29" seat height & a narrow seat

Three questions:
* Could I learn to ride it?
* How does it handle at 70 mph?
* Would it require constant tinkering?
Okay, let me try and bring this back to your original topic...

Could I learn to ride it?
Yes, but is it the most ideal bike to learn to ride a motorcycle on? The answer to that all depends on the individual's experience, patience, control over their emotions and willingness to learn slowly but seriously. Any bike, be it scooter, motocross, sport bike or cruiser, at any engine displacement is potentially dangerous, scary and intimidating to anyone who has issues or challenges with any of the aforementioned points.

Any of us here could recommend smaller displacement bikes all day long as a more ideal starter bike, but no one can say with 100% certainty that you yourself couldn't learn to ride a motorcycle equally as well, more or less easily, or without fail on this bike. In the end, you should examine your own willingness, temperament, discipline and patience to get your answer to this question.

I know folks who've learned to ride on more powerful bikes than this one (myself included). Was it an ideal way to learn how to ride? For some yes, others no.

How does it handle at 70 mph?
In a straight line, as already mentioned, it will likely handle better than any scooter; any Vespa, for sure at 70mph or 90mph (which it will do, BTW). Maybe the maxi-scooter owners beg to differ with me on that point, but generally speaking, bigger wheels and more weight will keep you more solidly planted on the road at highway speeds. On the flip side, it won't be as flickable and nimble in slower traffic conditions compared to a traditional/step through scooter like your GT.

So ask yourself, are you interested in owning two bikes -- a scooter and traditional motorcycle -- that are ideal on opposite ends of the spectrum? One thing's for sure: it can't do as easily what the Vespa GT does arguably better day in, day out.

Would it require constant tinkering?
If you're referring to it's retro looks as an indication of older unreliable technology, don't be fooled: this is modern technology in retro clothing. It won't leak oil like Bonnies from the '60s nor will it require any more maintenance than any other modern bike. The maintenance is at 6000 mile intervals along with an initial 500 mile service to drain the break-in oil. First major service is at 12,000 miles and requires valve adjustment.

The "British bikes are notoriously unreliable" reputation is outdated by almost 20 years (since the first "modern" Triumphs rolled off the Hinckley assembly line in 1991). Cost of ownership is probably more comparable to a Japanese bike than Italian. It's a good bike.

If I have any solid recommendation, it would be to take the MSF class and get your first taste of clutch and shift on their well-worn and beaten bikes. It could save you a lot of money in the end, whichever direction you decided to go with, motorcycle or no motorcycle.

(Sorry for the novella)
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CORSA IFP wrote:
TheO.Z. wrote:
Some people complain that shifting a dry clutch is touchier than a wet.

I think it's an individual taste sort of thing. I could take it or leave it.
I haven't noticed anything touchier (guess it depends on how you define touchy). Of course all my bikes except for the Duc are cable assisted and the Duc is hydraulic so that's a huge difference.
yeah I never noticed on any of my test rides on ducatis, but they weren't very long. The owners had simply mentioned that, I looked to pay attention for that, and hadn't noticed. YMMV I suppose, everyone has different baselines to compare to.
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This is great discussion and I've learned a whole lot
Thank you for your input!!

I've also really enjoyed learning about the lower-powered motorcycles
that are obviously loved by their owners

I'd prefer that the discussion to continue, but I probably should mention..

The husband has backed off considerably from his plans to get a BMW,
now that I'm talking about getting my own motorcycle to keep up with it
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Ol' Gregg wrote:
. And it's a V-twin, so if you stick a new set of pipes on it, it will sound awesome.
I'm going to respectfully disagree with this statement. There was a 650 V-Star rider in our neighborhood some time ago that had an aftermarket exhaust on his bike, and it produced a super-annoying, relatively high-pitched exhaust 'note' that could drive you crazy. The 650 V-Star has to run at a higher rpm than the larger V-twins to accomplish the same things and this also added to it's aggravating sound.

Plainly said, (IMO) the 650 V-Star sounds like crap with an aftermarket system.

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Re: SSR: Such a Cute Little Motorcycle!
robotribe wrote:
How does it handle at 70 mph?
Maybe the maxi-scooter owners beg to differ with me on that point, but generally speaking, bigger wheels and more weight will keep you more solidly planted on the road at highway speeds.
From the Biggy Burgman corps, I'll contribute thusly:

There's so many variables at play it's kind of hard to tell on that one, though as a general statement I think you're right.

Our 650 Burgmans are solidly 'planted' at highway speeds (and above), but I know that our somewhat smaller wheels are sure not the reason, but rather the bike's 63 inch wheelbase and 600lb wet weight mucking up the formula.

Larger wheels, if equally massive, will certainly provide more gyroscopic stability at speeds than smaller wheels, and I know for a fact that larger wheels will take sharp road irregularities a lot better than smaller wheels, but I imagine the Vespa riding members here don't need me telling them that. The Burgmans are nice-riding bikes generally, but they can be very harsh on , for example, potholes and rough railroad crossings as compared to most large-wheeled motorcycles. Their low-ball suspension doesn't help much either.
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L from Jersey wrote:
Another interesting one from Triumph--a cafe racer:
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
(The Thruxton)
OOoh Aaaah!

Love the Thruxton!


External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
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Scooterdoodler wrote:
Ol' Gregg wrote:
. And it's a V-twin, so if you stick a new set of pipes on it, it will sound awesome.
I'm going to respectfully disagree with this statement. There was a 650 V-Star rider in our neighborhood some time ago that had an aftermarket exhaust on his bike, and it produced a super-annoying, relatively high-pitched exhaust 'note' that could drive you crazy.
Different types of Vtwin sound different. Master of the Obvious!
For example, my Duc, w/ it's 10K redline sounds completely different than my Harley.

Both sound waaaay better than a Yam 650 with loud pipe!
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Desmolicious wrote:
Scooterdoodler wrote:
Ol' Gregg wrote:
. And it's a V-twin, so if you stick a new set of pipes on it, it will sound awesome.
I'm going to respectfully disagree with this statement. There was a 650 V-Star rider in our neighborhood some time ago that had an aftermarket exhaust on his bike, and it produced a super-annoying, relatively high-pitched exhaust 'note' that could drive you crazy.
Different types of Vtwin sound different. Master of the Obvious!
For example, my Duc, w/ it's 10K redline sounds completely different than my Harley.

Both sound waaaay better than a Yam 650 with loud pipe!
I should have mentioned the Ducati twins as sounding nothing like a cruiser twin, and as long as I'm back-pedalling, neither does the SV Suzuki twins, 650 or 1000, V-Stroms, or the Honda Superhawk, and of course a bunch more that I've conveniently omitted.

I agree that they would all sound better than the 650 V-Star, muffled or not.

One of the 'problems' with a piped 650 V-Star is that they're so underpowered that they're almost always working hard and so make a lot of racket doing things that most other bikes of the type can loaf at....and it take them a long time to get out of earshot...so it's a double whammy with that bike.

By the way, that red Thruxton is delicious....as is Peter Evan's CB750...with the original four mufflers yet! that's unusual, they're almost always rusted away decades ago.
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L, I'm not gonna wade into the arguments posted here by those far more (and some less) experienced than me. But I'll offer my two cents:

The Bonneville and the Scrambler are--in my opinion--just gorgeous. And they're bigger in person than in pictures.

The Mana looks way cooler in person than in pictures.

If you want something bigger and with more power, and you can live without the Triumph's classic retro loveliness, consider an Aprilia Scarabeo 500ie or a Piaggio BV500ie. They're the same scooter with slightly different styling (the Dodge /Plymouth of maxi-scooters.) Yes, the seat is higher than what you're looking for, but there's several discussions over at http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=22 with people who've lowered the seats and/or shocks. They'll cruise at 85 mph all day, have great brakes, more storage than any motorcycle, and the typical step-through design and ease of use of a scooter.
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Your choices for a 'vintage' style bike that is 09 or 10 model year are the following:

Triumph: Modern Classics Collection
Ducati: Sport Classic
Guzzi: V7
Royal Enfield: All choices
Suzuki: TU250X
Harley: Sporster
Honda: no
Kawaskai: no
BMW: no

Seth
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