Modern Vespa

Hi All -

This is a long shot -

My ET4 w/12,000 miles supposedly needs a new engine. The shop said they'll charge $4000 for a new engine, and $650+/- for labor. I might as well throw the bike away and buy a new one. This is KILLING me.

With the help from JimC and DougL I'm finding out that my bike might actually be better than the shop says. Can anyone help me decide if this bike is still worth fixing?

I have just looked at that invoice. Are you absolutely sure that the splines have worn off the crankshaft???

The pulley is soft aluminum and is generally the part that fails. It is a sacrificial part to protect the crankshaft. The aluminium gets lodged in the steel splines of the crankshaft and can normally be cleaned out with a needle file. Replace the variator half pulley with a new one and you're sorted.

If you do need a new engine, it can be changed in under an hour or so, so I don't know where that $650 labour charge has come from.

Thanks for replying. I'm heartbroken, but yes as far as I understand the splines are worn. They wanted $4000 for a new engine, and $650 for labor. Forget that - a new scoot would be cheaper!

If you have any ideas how I could save my scoot from the sale or junkyard - I'm all ears.....I'll upload some pics right now..

+1

It's extremely unlikely the crankshaft splines are damaged - if the outer pulley was OEM that is. This is a common failure mode, and why good dealers keep the more common outer variator halves in stock...

"Honda Kawasaki" dealers eh - so not exactly Piaggio experts?

Here's the photos I took yesterday.

Pictures of the crankshaft splines *after cleaning* would be good.

I'm not really sure how the engine all works, but they told me that they could replace these parts (belt, and worn gears on attached pics) but the spline might not hold, and getting a new engine is the way to go. Are they taking me for a ride and trying to sell me a new bike?

I just uploaded pics that should show this. Thanks again.

OK your splines look fine to me. Get a new outer pulley half, new rollers and a belt. Get everything torqued down properly and I bet it works just fine.

How high are the ridges in the center of the sline supposed to be? The edges look higher - are they supposed to be that way? The shop said they could repair it without the engine for $650-800, but "can't guarantee those splines will hold". Where could I see a photo of "good unworn splines"?

Oh and yes, you may be being taken in. Get someone who knows Vespas to deal with it, not a Honda dealer.

How much? An outer variator half, belt and rollers won't cost that much - and it's only 20 minutes work max to fit. They are con-merchants - never go there again, they obviously don't have a clue what they're talking about.

The centre/rear splines aren't even absolutely necessary - they're not used with J Costa variators at all!

This place is supposed to be an authorized Vespa dealership, and is listed on Vespa.com's location search for my area. But that doesn't mean they're NOT trying to take me for a ride. Thanks for your input - I'll try to get a second opinion at another shop.

Can I suggest that you ask a moderator to move this post to general discussion. And that you change the title of the post.... please don't sell it. I am sure someone locally will step forward to help. I'd do it if you were in London.

And change your dealer.

And Jim is absolutely right, the only splines that matter are right at the end. As I said they look normal to me.....

Topic so moved.

Thank you so much for your help and insight. I'm relieved to know that I might still keep my bike....

If anyone else can help me - I'd appreciate it much.

Good man Jim. Here is a pic of a GT200 pulley.



And its splined crankshaft



Have a look at this article from the Wiki. It may help understand how to do the belt change. Oh and edit your first post again to remove the price!

GT200 CVT belt and rollers replacement.

for the pics DougL. I'll look at them and the wiki as you suggested. Also - thanks for being my proofreader. In all my excitement I forgot to also change the body of my original post, so thanks for catching that!

Oh and one more thing, check that the splines on the roller ramp plate are ok. Not quite so important. And replace your starter bendix. In fact the splines on this GT look very much like yours. Fine. You can see where the gudgeon pin has worn the splines flat just like on yours. The gudgeon pin is the long cylindrical bushing that the variator slides along.

For an expert opinion close to you try- Greasy125, an esteemed forum member here.

His garage is in North Hills (right off Sepulveda). He does some pickups....
Or Massimo in Costa Mesa:

Scooter Mechanics around Orange County & LA

You really need a second opinion on that.

May I suggest you take a look at this topic for recommended mechanics in your area?
Scooter Mechanics around Orange County & LA

Good luck with it!


Harvey


Edit: There, you have two second posters with exactly the same advice- that you should try another mechanic.
Sorry, Doug!

Glad you agree Harvey.... You guys over there have made so many recommendations of these guys I almost feel like a local.

I just spoke with Vespa Sherman Oaks (located close to me) and they've been very helpful. I may tow it to them for a second opinion. Here's more pics of the rest of the engine, in case there's anything helpful shown here.

The bit you've circled in red is actually the kick start engagement. The bendix is shown just going out of shot in the top photo, above the kickstart mechanism. Why use a Vespa dealer and not one of the independents suggested by Harvey and I? Much cheaper...

Oh and your belt looks in good condition. How many miles on your ET4? Your bendix may of course be ok, and all you may need to change is the outer pulley half. They only cost the equivalent of about $50 over here....

....ModernVespa.com rocks, thanks to you guys.

Now I have more choices for second opinions thanks to DougL and Harvey. I'll give these a look for sure, and will tow my scoot out of the current repair shop today.

Since Greasy125 is closer to me and it looks like he does pick-ups, I think I'll give shot now....

Good! Never trust a mechanic 'WITCH' can't spell 'ENGIN'


Harvey

Indeedy!!!

I would say that you have a VERY good case for asking for your money back, once you have had that second opinion from greasy or massimo

Idiots.

LOL!

Yeah - I'm too forgiving and must have a sucker face. I knew the service manager/mechanic couldn't spell, but just ignored it and felt bad for him.

I've PM'd greasy125 and hope he gets back to me today.

To add fuel to the fire, this repair shop said that this "problem" probably happened because I missed service tune-ups (which I hadn't), or had bad service in the past. But these guys were the last to touch my bike in 5/31/08, to do the 7th Service, which was supposed to be "Full Service". I paid them $468 for that.

They said it takes 8 hours to change the engine.

I've just written and then deleted before posting several rather strong opinions on these dealers - as dealer-bashing isn't productive in the long run, and not the done thing here anyway. In this case I think they've bashed themselves better than any added words from bystanders.

Good point. The fair thing to do is remove the dealer info, which I've done. The repair estimate and dealer search images are now updated to blur the dealer name and address info.

Still waiting and hoping Greasy125 can reply to my email and PM today.....

You're very in tune for a new member... welcome by the way. You'll enjoy it here!

Thanks DougL! If my Vespa can be fixed, I'm sure I'll continue to be on here and loving it.

Massimo is a really nice and helpful guy. We spoke on the phone a while ago and he offered to rebuild the engine for around $750. But unfortunately he's 47 miles away from me, so I'm hoping Greasy125 can help first - he's closer at only 21 miles from me.

It really doesn't need a rebuild unless there's something else wrong that we don't know about or haven't seen.

The bike is now back in my garage. At least I no longer have the pressure of the shop charging me $25 a day until I make up my mind what to do with the bike.

I'm going to take more and better photos and post them here. Hopefully that information will reveal any other issues I might have missed, or not shown accurately. Once my wife and I save some $$, I hopefully it can be fixed and I'll be riding again, saving $$ on gas!

Thanks Jimc and all....

If they were charging that after their duff advice tell them to take a running jump.

Wow! I am absolutely gobsmacked how enormously that dealer has tried to gouge you.

That is not 'padding the bill', it is outright theft.

Good luck, you are on the right track.

Just FYI, I did strip the crank on our ET4, I had the nut at the end of the crank undo at 60mph.

I bought a complete second hand engine with 400 miles on it for $450 on ebay.

My engine had 14,000.

I swapped it out myself with a home-handyman type wrench set in a Saturday morning.

PM sent!