Modern Vespa

I always love the threads that start "I'd like a scooter for touring..."

Now there's nothing wrong with touring on a scooter, if you have a scooter and want to take a trip--I put semi-serious miles on mine; but saying "I want a scooter mainly for long trips and touring" is like saying "I'd like to have sex, but want to incorporate sandpaper somehow".

Just saying.

P.

holy crap. Classic. Good show.
(and ow)

heh heh, good one.

I've 'toured' on smaller things then a 250/300 auto scooter

Yeah, I once rode from New York City to St. Louis on a Honda CB 160.

Still, it was 1969 and even then it wasn't the best idea I ever had.

P.

... And we have a lot of cannonballers here.

While you can do it and you can call it a tour, doesn't mean there aren't bikes better designed for such uses.

Ha! Great simile. I tend to be a little bit of a masochist, but I assure you that some light touring on a Vespa is as far as I'd go... I leave the sandpaper out of my sex, thank you!

Clearly you guys don't have enough sex to build up callouses.

I find that an occassional touch up with some 1200 grit sandpaper removes the dead outer layer of skin so sex just feels better.

a little bit. If it was really actually 300cc I would be THRILLED, because I love it now. 300 real cc's wow that would be sweet.

I can see the GTS getting bigger with Piaggio's incrementalism. I can't see them designing a whole new engine however, so it's either doing something to the current one or taking another of their engines and shoe horning it into the GTS frame. I don't think there is any technical reason why you can't have a 500 or 600cc motor in a Vespa frame if it can be done with Bergmans, Majestics, Silver Wings, etc. I do agree with an earlier post that it's likely that they will put a speed limiter in there.

I think that the future is going to hold a lot more morphing between scooters and motorcycles until you can get CVT 1500cc motorcycles, etc.

With all of the bikes we own, my wife and I still enjoy the Vespa for in town more than any of the others. The upright seating position provides a true safety factor when you are approaching intersections. Scoots are truly "urban warrior" machines. One thing you don't need is a huge engine in stop and go traffic.

My wife has actually worked out a route coming home where she hits the streets for 1.5 miles, goes east on interstate 10 for 1 mile, exits to the street for 500 yards, and goes west on interstate 610 for 1 mile and exits 6 blocks to the house. She feels that the interstate riding is SAFER because the risk of getting t-boned by a car is eliminated. 8 minute commute home and free parking at the front door of her work. With the car, she would still have to walk 2 blocks to the French quarter and pay $200 per month to park.

She sometimes rides one of the larger bikes to work but gets tired of shifting since she got the Vespa. 10 years riding a Harley before that and she NEVER complained. Can we call her "spoiled" now?

Of course, being a sport bike rider she would gladly accept more power then she has with the GT200. But she hasn't complained yes. So i'm keeping real quite about the pick up of the 300. I just told her it was only 2 hp more and she lost interest at that point. Whew.

I predict a large capacity turbo diesel engine, although I'm prepared to accept that I may be slightly off the mark.

No the flux capacitor will be next.

Lets not forget that Vespa is just the name of a model range produced by Piaggio. If they produced a model that had bigger wheels, bigger engines etc, it would lose the identity and image that the word Vespa produces, thats why Piaggio make a whole range of other scoots to suit taste and use.

A good example of what I mean is, if you say "Gold wing" to someone, they dont imagine a sports bike.

That said, more power and speed is always an intoxicating mix that most of us find hard to refuse, and having it in package as good looking as a Vespa would be a bonus

Is this where we get to dream up a new Vespa?

Engine:

449cc's
Larger Variator fan to help belt life.
Replaceable bottom end--without replacing engine cases.

Chassis:

Larger wheels that look better. (I like the AC Cobra-Halibrand look)
Longer wheelbase, but not too long, perhaps 100mm longer.
Single tool tire change.

Electrical:

Factory mounted Stebel horn.
Signal light beeper.
12V outlet installed upper left knee cover, and inside glove compartment.
LED lighting for turn signals and running lights, in apprpriate Vespa look fixtures.
White-Amber LED in instrument cluster for incandescent look.

Body:

Reduction of plastic body parts.
Reworked headlight housing and speedo that looks more vintage still.
Removable/Replaceable rear side panels, as those often are damaged damaged on a drop.
Lower seat height.
Fender reflectors reworked as lights that look better.
Larger gas tank with easier filling.
Addition of cream-white color.

(Note larger fuel and lower seat will require reduction of "pet carrier.")

great performance and mpg

its recycled as well

The Sym Citycom 300i is one hell of a good machine. Even though it is really a 268cc engine, it will out perform many of the scoots out there in the 400 to 500cc range.
It is a lot less expensive than the GTS250 or 300 by several thousand $CDN - $5995.00 vs $7595.00 & $8295.00.
A big plus is the Sym dealers seem to be able to dicker, price wise, whereas the Vespa dealers are rigid in pricing.

Just hope they keep the beautiful and traditional Vespa form factor for the Vespa line, and save the things that look like overwrought athletic shoes for the Piaggio or Aprilia line!

Not really, imho. Go back a generation or so, and cars (in Europe) were mainly small, low performance things. I'd see a 250 or 300 scoot as the equivalent of say a litre or 1200cc car. You can go on the motorway, but you don't have to plan on doing many overtakes.

I don't see a "small" engine size as being a drawback for touring...as long as you're happy with not going anywhere at warp speed.

For me, touring can be slow. BUT it does need a scoot that's not uncomfortable to ride for several hours, and that has a fair amount of storage space.

Which is why I'd way prefer my X9 250 for touring (whereas I have a blast on Mrs BB's GTS250 around town and on day trips).

"Touring" bikes are still quite limited for storage space, without panniers, etc. Even though they may be able to do high speeds.

I'm pretty sure they make small diesel outboard engines for boats so I mean, hey it could be possible! I would buy one!

I'm tired of people saying if you want more than 300 buy a motorcycle. It's bullshit. People buy scooters for more than just engine size, afterall they make a ton of 250 motorcycles.


Honda Silverwing, Suzuki Burgman and Yamaha T-Max all go to show scooters above 300cc are still SCOOTERS and there is a strong, ever-growing market for them.

Actually, basically everything you mentioned like a larger top end, larger wheels, etc, will do that. Hah. Oh yeah, we wouldnt' be talking about the same frame either if you wanted a longer wheel base...

It's not the small engine size that makes scooters less suitable for touring than motorcycles.

1. Scooter drive belt & rollers--short replacement times mean long tours require either early replacement before you leave, or plans for a down day for service. Though rare, they can break under stressful conditions so a spare belt, tools, and the ability to replace a belt are advisable--you won't find a scooter mechanic or dealer that easily.

2. Scooter tires, even 16" rears, need replacement often.

3. Scooter handling, even the big ones, is more tiring than any non-supersport motorcycle. If you're doing 300-500 mile days, it gets to you.

4. Rear weight bias and aerodynamics make scooters dicey in windy conditions.

5. If you go off the beaten path, the longer suspension travel, and larger wheels on a motorcycle make rough roads, gravel and dirt way less problematic.

6. Most motorcycles have much larger fuel tanks, and on highways their fuel economy is pretty close--so longer range without strapping fuel cells and bottles all over your bike.

If you want a scooter for its advantages, great. If you then want to take a tour or two on your scooter, great. It is fun. I do it myself.

It is not ideal. A motorcycle will be more comfortable, easier to ride long distances, require less maintenance (especially shaft-drive cycles), and generally more pleasant for long-distance riding. Just a fact.

P.

(1) and (2) 6000 mile intervals, and a similar amount from a rear tyre. London to Liechtenstein and back is around 2000 miles. I could go almost anywhere in Europe in between services (and it's no big deal to time my annual services to take place at the beginning of the summer - which is the only time I get a long enough holiday to do a decent length tour). Scooters are common things in Europe, and there are plenty of dealers if the worst comes to the worst. I've never taken a spare belt or any spare parts (although I do have Europ-wide breakdown cover.)

(3) Not imho. One of the pluses about a scooter is the comfy seat and comfy riding position.

(4) Not sure what you mean. My scoot handles fine

(5) Granted, a scooter is no good off road. But off road riding is a bit specialist, imho, and hasn't formed part of any of my touring hol's. Sure, there are "proper" roads which will be a bit potholed, and which will have gravel and other rubbish on them. But I've never had problems on any public road with the scoot (albeit that I do have to travel more slowly and carefully).

(6) Tank range on a Vespa is poor. But still, around 125 miles (which is a typical motorway range on the GTS250) isn't poor comapred to a lot of m'bikes. Tank range on my X9 250 is a heck of a lot more than that (14.5 litre tank).

So, in my world, a scooter is great to tour on (although, as I said before, that scooter is probably not a Vespa).

I wonder if Vespa is going to arrive at the same decision point that some of the DSLR camera manufacturers have -- that is they stop chasing megapixels (or engine cc in this case) and choose to focus on improving other areas of camera (scooter) function.

What would that translate into on the Vespa? more efficient engines? more info on the instrument cluster? better suspension? who knows?

Just seems like they might reach the point where 300cc (or whatever) is 'enough' and maybe let the other brands they hold chase ccs. Just a thought.

id like to see an electric powered vespa in the future!!!

Technically they are a "scooter" but realistically I don't see it.

They're too big to lane split.

They're too heavy to load into a truck by yourself.

They look ridiculous.

They're too complex to wrench on in your back yard.

They look ridiculous.

They are too big to do scooter things (park on sidewalks, for example).

They aren't light and nimble and simple to hop on and off of and maneuver in, well, a city which is what scooters were designed for.

They're overpowered for a scooter, underpowered for a motorcycle.

They remind me of a Goldwing you don't shift.

The maxi scoot is to scooters what the International CXT is to a passenger vehicle:

+1+1+1 Hate to use GM as an example, but lets use VW. VW owns Audi, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Bentley. These all have market areas that fill spots and they don't have to have a Lamborghini mini van to be successful. Oh I forgot, Porsche just joined the family.

Folks keep wondering if BMW will eventually go front wheel drive. THEY HAVE FRONT WHEEL DRIVE CARS, it's called MINI.

So when you identify what is missing from Vespa, you really have to look at Piaggio holistically to see what is missing.

Corsa, I suspect we don't agree on a lot of things... but I couldn't agree more with THIS post!

A Burgman, or Silverwing, filters just fine. I see them every day in central London (and we have narrow lanes).

If we're disqualifying things from being called "scooters" by being too heavy to get into a truck solo, and by being too complex to fix yourself, (although goodness knows why this should have any bearing on whether something's a scooter or not. It seems an entirely unrelated and arbitrary POV to me), then any FI 250 Vespa fits those criteria. TBH, there are plenty of riders who would struggle to get a GT125 into a truck.

When you're talking about being too big to park on a pavement, the only things that are really small enough are little 50's. GTs, GTSs, Supers, etc, are big bodied scoots. The fact that a Burgman is a bit bigger again, doesn't make a GTS any smaller.

Your other points are variants on "I don't like them", which is valid for you, but which isn't the basis for a universal conclusion.

yeah, that's why I said "but realistically I don't see it" because it's my opinion.

So what makes them a scooter? Because of the step through frame? Is that it?

Oh and a Super, Sprint, SX, VNB, VBB, etc are all perfect size to park on sidewalks.

P fits on a sidewalk too, and that's a large frame, WHAT.

Of course any large frame is dwarfed by the GT/GTS.

that said the criteria for scooters is broad. I'd actually argue that maxis aren't scooters and that's why there's a term for it - maxi scooter. By analogy, a truck isn't de facto a semi.

In linguistics, when discussing categories, an argument on whether something is contested depends on whether or not there is a cannonical example of that category. Art is a contested category because there is no one immediate visual that represents art. On the flip side, many (if not most) people an easily picture a Vespa like vehicle when asked to explain a scooter. I can't imagine anyone immediately jumping out with a description of a TMax.

I don't believe they're scooters in the traditional sense - and when asked I've said my bikes were the big brother of scooters - shares a lot of the same mechanics but a bit different.

(been riding MASTER500 bikes since '05)

Lasers.

I want frikken' lasers...

I see your point, but I see it differently. I'd see "maxi" as being a useful word to describe a secondary characteristic, under the genus "scooter". "Geared" and "small frame" would be other words that I'd see as being similar to "maxi".

I've got no axe to grind either way, other than I find it unneccasarily childish to read posts saying "I don't like [x]s. They're rubbish, and they're not even proper [y]s." It's the same old carp divisive argument that makes divisions between groups of people who actually have more in common than they have which divides them.

my local piaggio delaer reckons a 400/500 GTS is in the pipeline.
Look at MP3 - 125 to 250 to 500
theres a 500 X9

logical progression is a 500 vespa...

Curious what that would be? And that's a serious question, too.

Thank you. You've very succinctly made the point I've been struggling to make in previous threads along this line. Definitions and categories are certainly useful -- if not absolutely necessary -- to communicate clearly... and stretching them beyond recognition dilutes their usefulness.

BTW, many of our European friends may not be aware that the truck that CorsaIFP pictured is not marketed here in the US as a commercial vehicle, but rather as personal transport. How's that for stretching definitions in a uniquely American way?

To my simple mind, I find it pointless when hissy spats arise between, say: geared scooter riders v auto scoot riders; m/c riders v scooter riders, etc.

As I say, I think these groups have FAR more in common (e.g. concerns about PTW laws, licensing laws, behaviour of cars on the road, etc) than they're ever going to have as differences (which basically boil down to aesthetics).

Which is probably why I'll tend to stick my oar in when there's a thread which says "Ooh, so-and-so kind of PTW is rubbish. My kind is clearly superior." I don't like to see opinion put forward as objective argument.

In this context, I'm not saying anyone has to LIKE maxi scoots. Nor am I saying that any children or animals are going to be hurt if people want to call maxis any funny names, or make any cracks about oversized couches on wheels. I'm just saying that it's a poor logic to try to go down the line of "they're not scooters because I don't happen to like the look of them"

Binelli, I get what you're saying, but I'd be willing to throw out that 2/3rds of thr arguments you get about scooters are culturally driven rather than necessarily about the bikes themselves (though that is a factor, undeniably).

NSFW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hm7pp_JFOs