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zachster wrote:
id like to see an electric powered vespa in the future!!!
I wager we will see an electric vespa before a 500cc vespa 8)
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a MC/scooter has to be 400cc and above to be freeway-legal in my country, so the prospect of a 400cc Vespa would be the only convincing factor for me to upgrade.

as of the moment, I am fine with my 150cc brood. i'm mostly a city rider but i have done some touring on both the PX and LX... would be nice to be able to use the freeways on long rides as opposed to back roads, though
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if they went up to 500cc i would like to see a little bigger and wider tires on the scoot. i would not buy one because i love my scoot (and my old lady would me mad if i brought home another one), but i would sure try one out and drool over it.
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Re: Errrrr?
WaspLover wrote:
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
Ok that is just funny!
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Benelli Boy wrote:
I'm just saying that it's a poor logic to try to go down the line of "they're not scooters because I don't happen to like the look of them"
I listed a lot other arguments than looks.

Basically they are "scooters" because of a step-through frame. That's it. And even that aspect is questionable.

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Can you really tell the difference?
⚠️ Last edited by CORSA IFP on UTC; edited 1 time
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Are there any plans for a revised 300? There's a new transmission casing on the GTS Super 125... though how a rear facing vent is supposed to improve air flow through the case I don't know...

Spotted last week at a Vespa dealer in SW London. I know, I know, trainspotting etc...
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CORSA IFP wrote:
Benelli Boy wrote:
I'm just saying that it's a poor logic to try to go down the line of "they're not scooters because I don't happen to like the look of them"
I listed a lot other arguments than looks.

Basically they are "scooters" because of a step-through frame. That's it. And even that aspect is questionable.

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Can you really tell the difference?
I love the PCH. Best Honda ever, as long as you're not looking for a speed demon.

Anyway, the other thing that "makes" it a scooter is the smaller wheels. And oddly, because we might disagree with this, because it's automatic.

Anyway. I'm with you on this, as you might have guessed. Mostly I'm just saying.
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CORSA IFP wrote:
Benelli Boy wrote:
I'm just saying that it's a poor logic to try to go down the line of "they're not scooters because I don't happen to like the look of them"
I listed a lot other arguments than looks.
And I've answered them for you in this thread, saying why I think they are not relevant and/or also apply to several MVs as well as recognised "maxis". If you'd like to discuss them, that'd be great. Ignoring them, however, won't go anywhere to making this a discussion.
CORSA IFP wrote:
Basically they are "scooters" because of a step-through frame. That's it. And even that aspect is questionable.
You're the only one insisting on a step-through frame being a necessary qualification for being a scooter. By your "rule" that makes the vintage scoots (with spare wheel mounted in the stepping-through-space) motorbikes? It seems to me that you're looking for reasons NOT to call things scooters (even things that Piaggio calls scooters - and FFS I think they've probably got more right to decide what's a scooter than you or I), whereas I'm taking the opposite approach.
CORSA IFP wrote:
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Can you really tell the difference?
Yes. As I suspect could anyone who's interested in scooters. And anyone who's interested in motorbikes.
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TheO.Z. wrote:
And oddly, because we might disagree with this, because it's automatic.

Anyway. I'm with you on this, as you might have guessed. Mostly I'm just saying.
My scoot is definitely a scooter and it definitely is not automatic.

Plus there are automatic motorcycles.

But I'm glad we agree. Mostly. I mean it's all marketing. If Suzuki and other Maxipad, er scooter manufacturers would have called the "Automatic Motorcycles" no one would be arguing they're scooters, they'd be hanging out with Harley guys at Sturgis saying "Why won't you accept me as part of your group? I am riding a motorcycle" instead of, well, what happens now at scooter rallies.
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Benelli Boy wrote:
By your "rule" that makes the vintage scoots (with spare wheel mounted in the stepping-through-space) motorbikes?
Huh? how does a removable tire count as a frame?

Also, seriously dudes, can you strip the photos out of a post when you quote and reply?

It gets annoying seeing the same photo again and again and again.
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Benelli Boy wrote:
even things that Piaggio calls scooters - and FFS I think they've probably got more right to decide what's a scooter than you or I
+1. The most sensible thing I've heard today.
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CORSA IFP wrote:
It gets annoying seeing the same photo again and again and again.
It's equally annoying hearing the same argument again and again, Mike. I've been listening to you rant about what is and isn't a scooter for years now. Give it up. It's not up to you to decide.
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jess wrote:
Benelli Boy wrote:
even things that Piaggio calls scooters - and FFS I think they've probably got more right to decide what's a scooter than you or I
+1. The most sensible thing I've heard today.
Piaggio could make a four wheel drive SUV and slap "Vespa" on it and call it a scooter, but it doesn't make it a scooter, any more than that CST beheamoth is a passenger vehicle just because International says it is.

It's all marketing.

If Suzuki thought they could sell more Burgmans calling them Motorcycles you damn well know they would call them Motorcycles.

If Piaggio thought they could sell more 300s branding them as motorcycles you can bet your ass Piaggio would be in the automatic motorcycle business.

I mean the beheamoths aren't allowed on the Cannonball, are they?
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I really want a bigger pet carrier on upcoming versions of the GTS. The LX holds a decent helmet, but the GTS does not. I had to buy a top case just for storing my helmet. Eningewise it would be more than enough if the 300 cc was modified to output some 30 Hp instead of the moderate 22. If the GTS 125 Super can deliver 15 Hp then the 2011 GTS 300 Super Speciale really should deliver the double. That would give it some extra push from 60 to 85 mph, and the rear original tyres could be 12/140 for some added stability.
⚠️ Last edited by mejiro on UTC; edited 2 times
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[i]If Piaggio thought they could sell more 300s branding them as motorcycles you can bet your ass Piaggio would be in the automatic motorcycle business.[i]

They are and they're called Aprilias....... Razz emoticon
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CORSA IFP wrote:
It's all marketing.
Are you sure marketing has anything to do with this?

From reading your exquisitely argued posts, I thought there was an immutable law, decided by you, and only you, which places anything you like in any category you like and then puts its fingers in its ears and goes "La la la. I can't hear you".

Conversely, if it IS all marketing, why are you expending so much energy in trying to say that it isn't?

I'm too confused to carry this on. Which is a shame. Because it really is an interesting topic to discuss.
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Benelli Boy wrote:
Conversely, if it IS all marketing, why are you expending so much energy in trying to say that it isn't?
Huh? I think you're trying to write smarter than you are, and failing.

Of course it's marketing, which is why I am saying they aren't scooters even though they're marketed as such.

And giving my reasons why I don't think they fit into the traditional scooter definition.

You're the one saying we're all some huge community of huggable sweet teddy bears who have so much in common because we may get hit by a car on two wheels.
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CORSA IFP wrote:
And giving my reasons why I don't think they fit into the traditional scooter definition.
I believe that your "traditional scooter definition" excludes automatics, does it not? That makes it pretty easy to dismiss the rest of your arguments as irrelevant.
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jess wrote:
I believe that your "traditional scooter definition" excludes automatics, does it not? That makes it pretty easy to dismiss the rest of your arguments as irrelevant.
Nope. I see automatic vespas as scooters.

I do not see that owning an automatic vespa automatically makes you part of some scootering "scene" and I don't think that because someone has a new scooter that we should be automatic BFFs.
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CORSA IFP wrote:
Nope. I see automatic vespas as scooters.
Oh, I bet you'd secretly like them to all just vanish. Go on, admit it.
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CORSA IFP wrote:
[
I do not see that owning an automatic vespa automatically makes you part of some scootering "scene" and I don't think that because someone has a new scooter that we should be automatic BFFs.
Whew, that's good. Because the "scene" isn't something I'd like to be a part of. Thanks for the reassurance.
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jess wrote:
CORSA IFP wrote:
Nope. I see automatic vespas as scooters.
Oh, I bet you'd secretly like them to all just vanish. Go on, admit it.
How many times are you going to ignore my repeated statements about having a GT200 and enjoying the piss out of it?
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Len Smith wrote:
CORSA IFP wrote:
[
I do not see that owning an automatic vespa automatically makes you part of some scootering "scene" and I don't think that because someone has a new scooter that we should be automatic BFFs.
Whew, that's good. Because the "scene" isn't something I'd like to be a part of. Thanks for the reassurance.
Snap.

My worthless opinion: Maxi scooters don't fit my idea of a scooter. But I just won't buy one. The current GTS range is a bit porky for my scooter ideal. Wouldn't buy one either.

What I'd like to see is the 250 lump in the S/LX frame. Which won't happen.
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Benito wrote:
No the flux capacitor will be next. Razz emoticon
But you'll need a nuclear reaction to generate the 1.21 gigawatts of electricity to run it.
Yes, that's Three Mile Island.
Yes, that's Three Mile Island.
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HotboxDeluxe wrote:
Len Smith wrote:
CORSA IFP wrote:
[
I do not see that owning an automatic vespa automatically makes you part of some scootering "scene" and I don't think that because someone has a new scooter that we should be automatic BFFs.
Whew, that's good. Because the "scene" isn't something I'd like to be a part of. Thanks for the reassurance.
Snap.

My worthless opinion: Maxi scooters don't fit my idea of a scooter. But I just won't buy one. The current GTS range is a bit porky for my scooter ideal. Wouldn't buy one either.

What I'd like to see is the 250 lump in the S/LX frame. Which won't happen.
Be assured that there are others who share your worthless opinion. Razz emoticon
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CORSA IFP wrote:
jess wrote:
CORSA IFP wrote:
Nope. I see automatic vespas as scooters.
Oh, I bet you'd secretly like them to all just vanish. Go on, admit it.
How many times are you going to ignore my repeated statements about having a GT200 and enjoying the piss out of it?
For as long as you keep trolling.
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CORSA IFP wrote:
It's all marketing.

If Suzuki thought they could sell more Burgmans calling them Motorcycles you damn well know they would call them Motorcycles.
This is where we're going to start diverging.

I think the reason it's "marketed" that way is because the people who were trying to determine how to classify this vehicle saw a lot of similarities with scooters:

1) step through design
2) smaller wheels
3) typically smaller displacement / weight ratio (compare a burgman 650's weight to an SV650, and also look at which puts out the most power)
4) upright sitting position
5) swing arm that contains components of the engine or transmission
6) relatively small footprint
7) relatively low performance (compared to a motorcycle)

those are salient qualities of a scooter. For modern bikes, that also means automatic transmission vs. gears. This is just one of those things that happened over time - it's not necessarily a requirement since it's really only been in the last 20 or so years of scootering that they've transitioned to automatics / cvts.

So you start looking at maxis as a whole and by and large they share almost all of those traits. some bikes, like the burgman or the tmax, have the engine fixed centrally to the bike, as opposed to as a swing arm, but by and large, they share more in common with scooters as two wheeled transport than motorcycles.

I think that, by two more aesthetic virtues that aren't necessarily givens or are at least slippery slopes (6 & 7), they don't really fit into the realm of scooters. Even though i list them at the bottom, the aesthetic of scooters is just as much about their size and inherent speed as anything else (even though you can mod a bike to go pretty darned fast - it's not, stock, designed to perform off the line like a Ducati Streetfighter). That tears maxis away from "true scooters" to me, and puts them in no-man's-land where they are scooter-like vehicles that aren't true scooters but for all intents and purposes might be considered as such.

That's why I almost always refer to them as "maxis" to differentiate.
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jess wrote:
CORSA IFP wrote:
jess wrote:
CORSA IFP wrote:
Nope. I see automatic vespas as scooters.
Oh, I bet you'd secretly like them to all just vanish. Go on, admit it.
How many times are you going to ignore my repeated statements about having a GT200 and enjoying the piss out of it?
For as long as you keep trolling.
I'm actually finding him more and more fascinating as we go.



Not in a negative way either. Razz emoticon
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TheO.Z. wrote:
I'm actually finding him more and more fascinating as we go.

That's because I'm awesome, chicks dig me, puppies follow me around, and come the Zombie apocalypse I'm going to be the Kevin Costner-esque mfer running shit in the aftermath.
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CORSA IFP wrote:
That's because I'm a puppy, zombies dig me, Kevin Costner follows me around, and come the Troll apocalypse I'm going to be the mfer running shit in the aftermath.
Fixed that for ya.
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jess wrote:
CORSA IFP wrote:
That's because I'm a puppy, zombies dig me, Kevin Costner follows me around, and come the Troll apocalypse I'm going to be the mfer running shit in the aftermath.
Fixed that for ya.
Well there goes your karma rating.
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ROFL emoticon
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CORSA IFP wrote:
Well there goes your karma rating.
I can afford it.
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I'm not entirely sure what point we're arguing anymore?


If we're trying to establish bounds for what actually IS a scooter ... or, subsequently, what IS a vespa ? I think there's some merit to that debate. Certainly, Vespas have always had a handful of categorical similarities ( despite whether auto or geared )... at some point, the displacement of the engine crosses a threshold which is un-Vespa-like, in my opinion. In fact, i think they crossed it around the 200cc ceiling... but they did so by just sticking a bigger engine in the same 200 frame, which i'm sorta cool with. It's like putting a 250cc kitted lambretta engine in a GP200 or whatever. The GP200 didn't get dimensionally bigger to accomodate the engine - the engine displacement alone grew.

To add to that point, even VESPA knows for the most part what a Vespa is and what it isn't. It's why their less vintage-esque offerings have been badged "piaggio" or one of their subsidiaries other than "Vespa". And i think they've been pretty on the mark up to this point. It's what lies ahead that worries me, because it seems "bigger is better" is the trend they keep following, and i don't think that's a vespa-esque ideal. ( in fact, it's one i absolutely reject )


Or are we trying to establish bounds to say, ultimately, your bohemoth doesn't fit within our ideas of what a scooter is, and so we don't figure you fit in with our community... because i think that's ultimately what Jess is rejecting.

Forecasting what Vespa's next offering should or shouldn't be is different than ostracizing a group of people for what they already own and enjoy because it doesn't fall within the "cool kids group".
⚠️ Last edited by Rover Eric on UTC; edited 1 time
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Rover Eric wrote:
Or are we trying to establish bounds to say, ultimately, your bohemoth doesn't fit within our ideas of what a scooter is, and so we don't figure you fit in with our community... because i think that's ultimately what Jess is rejecting.
That's more or less what I'm rejecting, yes. But to be perfectly clear, I'm not trying to be all-inclusive. I'm simply pointing out that I, or Mike, or Eric, or Oz, or anyone else here are not the arbiters of what does or does not constitute a scooter.

You might as well argue about what constitutes pornography. The definition of both subjects is about equally clear.
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Rover Eric wrote:
Forecasting what Vespa's next offering should or shouldn't be is different than ostracizing a group of people for what they already own and enjoy because it doesn't fall within the "cool kids group".
Your Karma on the BBS just shit the bed.

FWIW I don't care if people own and enjoy things - I just care when they want me to be their BFF because we both happen to own a "scooter" or get pissy when I have a vintage only event and accuse me of splitting apart the community.

I get the same way with people when I used to go to dog parks (have a yard now so don't have to). Just because we have dogs doesn't mean I want to talk to you, now go chase around that yappy mutt that's uncontrollable because you're afraid to hurt its feelings by disciplining it.
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Aw come on, we've all got scooters, let's hold hands and sing
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jess wrote:
I'm simply pointing out that I, or Mike, or Eric, or Oz, or anyone else here are not the arbiters of what does or does not constitute a scooter.
I disagree with this statement
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UTC quote
CORSA IFP wrote:
FWIW I don't care if people own and enjoy things - I just care when they want me to be their BFF because we both happen to own a "scooter" or get pissy when I have a vintage only event and accuse me of splitting apart the community.
Meh. I gave up on that a long time ago. Being BFF with a bunch of crotchety old vintage guys who loudly deride anyone who isn't exactly like them isn't so much fun after all.
CORSA IFP wrote:
I get the same way with people when I used to go to dog parks (have a yard now so don't have to). Just because we have dogs doesn't mean I want to talk to you, now go chase around that yappy mutt that's uncontrollable because you're afraid to hurt its feelings by disciplining it.
Seems like you have some socialization issues of your own you might want to work out.
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