Modern Vespa

I've been riding my 500 every night since getting it back last Friday. After the first couple of nights I noticed that the handlebar seemed to be twisted off center and was no longer perpendicular to the front wheels. Then couple of nights ago it was so far off that it was annoying me during the entire ride. Came home and stood facing the bike and clamped the front wheels between my legs and found that the handlebar twisted significantly with very little force while the wheels were held still.

Consulted the manual and previous posting Steering issue and tightened the clamp bolt to 480 inch lbs. Did the previous test and the handlebar felt fixed. Went on a ride and by the end of the ride, the handlebar had moved again. Do I need to take it back to the shop to get this looked at or should I continue to tighten the clamp bolt?

The handlebar/steering stem clamp seems to be a poor design (I expected more of a notch meet notch design) and seems to make slippage easily possible. If such slippage occurs so easily, I am now having second thoughts about the Jettin barends I got recently for tying down the 500 in my trailer. It sounded like a good idea and worked well but thinking about it again, during normal riding not much force is applied to the handlebar. It appears the tying the bike by the handlebar would impose significant more stress on the handlebar/steering stem junction. I am concerned that tying the bike down by the handlebar could actually do harm in the long run.

Any thoughts?

Heresy I know - but I pay sweet FA attention to the 'book' torque figures. That handle-bar pinch bolt up front needs to be done up enough so that it can't move easily - but only when knocked against the end-stops. This makes it safe for riding and safe against pikeys.

Once it has been moved (after an off say) then this is the only rule to be followed, as the original manual torque figures are for an unmolested device, not a real-life example.

the jettin bar ends are good looking but DO NOT USE THEM FOR TIEING DOWN YOUR RIDE. you will encouter a big $$$$$ set back if yo need to replace the streeing stem if bent. The center of the sterring stem is hollow and not real strong so if you over torque the handle bar bolt you will crush the stem aslo.

on the 500 model for tieing down on the front use the exposed frame on the front of the scoot just below the turn signal area. I have used this for a trip to CA and back with no problems.

oad....how about the 250 model, can I tie down with my bar-ends? That's why I installed them (for future use)

Sky the handelbar design is the same on ALL the MP3's. So no I would not recomend it. Just for everyones peace of mind on this take off the 4 allen bolts holding the cover on the center of the bars and look at how they are clamped on to the steering tube. It takes 2 min.

If anyone does use the handlebars as tie down points and damage the steering tube it will cost you approx.$2k.

oad... Wow...thanks for that great info.! I trust you are right! (may peek anyway at interior). I would not have checked 1st....you just saved my scoot from a future incorrect tie-down!

sky I'll post some pics of a very good spot to tie down to on the 250/400 tonight. Its on the front shock area on the top. there is a bracket bolted to the mount area that is perfect for attaching a tie down to. Have to go to work this morning or I would do it now.

here are some pics for a very good tie down spot that will not cause any damage. please remember when tieing down the front to first put the tie downs on and lightly sinch them as to not put any pressure on the suspension. step 2 is to unlock suspension. step 3 tighten each strap alittle at a time and alternate between each . You want the front end to suck down but not fully compress the shocks just about half way. I would also recommend doing the same with the rear just so the back end does hop side to side.

Took my 500 back to the shop several weeks ago for the loose/twisting handlebar issue. To my surprise, the mechanic told me that he had already tightened it before I picked it up last time. Apparently when he last took it out for a test ride the handlebar twisted loose on him when he came to a turn and scared the crap out of him so he return back to the shop and tightened it up. So again, I left the bike with him for the afternoon. He tightened it up again but this time came to the conclusion that the steering tube was no longer perfectly round. Since the issue existed while in their possession prior to warranty expiration, they said they would send the pic of the steering tube to Piaggio for assessment.

Several weeks went by with no incidents before the handlebar started to get off center again. When I reported it to the shop, they asked me to bring it in. They had the Piaggio rep and a Piaggio tech come by and look at it and they came to the conclusion that the clamp on handlebar had been stretched with all the tightening and was no longer able to exert the necessary pressure on the steering tube. They decided to replace the handlebar. I was a bit surprised by this since it appeared to me that the root cause was the deformed steering tube. However, I didn't argue cuz if their diagnosis is incorrect and it twists again then they will ultimately have to replace the steering tube anyways.

Went to pickup my bike today and asked for more details. The mechanic told me that the handlebar was on order and wouldn't arrive for another several weeks. What they have done as one of the "fixes" is to insert a snug fitting cro-moly tubing inside the steering tube. This inner sleeve essentially prevents distortion of the steering tube and help maintain its integrity.

My personal feelings about this is that this is a manufacturing defect and one that poses a serious safety risk to all MP3 owners. Seeing how many people chimed in on this thread handle bars crooked confirms my belief that this is a manufacturing defect. Piaggio should own up to it and issue a recall before someone gets seriously hurt like my mechanic almost did. I am very surprised that such a critical component on this bike demonstrates such poor engineering. I would highly recommend that noone try to address the issue on their own by repeated tightening of the clamp and instead bringing it to Piaggio's attention so that they are forced to the conclusion that this is recall-worthy.

It is pretty tough to force a manufacturer to perform a recall. Enough reports to the government are the only way to force Piaggio in the United States.

Akela, I was surprised to see your MP3 at midtown yet again when I was in there Saturday. I do believe the good news for you is Bobby taking the initiative to strengthen the steering tube and getting the sleeve made at a machine shop. When you get the new handle bars you will have an upgrade none of the rest of us have.

BTW saw glow guy, his beter half and their ride there too getting a new tire.

Fuzzy,

At this rate, I think you are seeing more of my bike than I am. I am happy that Bobby offered a workaround cuz a handlebar replacement alone did not sound logical to me. What he came up with was exactly what I was going to do on my own if Piaggio was not going to own up to it.

My bike will be in the shop yet once again when the handlebar comes in. Bobby told me he will be taking the front end apart so I've asked him to install the Stebel horn and make my simultaneous high and low beam mod while he has it naked.

Akela

Akela, I've gotten a real educaiton with Bobby showing me what he has done to your 500. You have had more than your share of trouble since your purchase. I hope you soon have all the issues worked out so you can reliably enjoy your ride. When you do we need to get together to compare notes and for a ride.

The stebel horn and both lights on will be good additions. You may want to consider a headlight modulator at the same time. I got mine form midtown and Bobby installed it.

If this defect surfaced (as it has with a few here) it would be about as scary as it gets.
For the mechanically challenged here ( I should be the president of such a group), is someone able to tell, simply please (or if not simply-thoroughly) how to really check to see if there are issues?
I know mine has been hauled a couple times and wenched down by the handlebars--I did not know any better--and the wrecker driver, naturally, did not either!
I will not make that mistake again!

I think this is a design flaw and as such is a defect that everyone has as long as production has remained the same. Mine is a 2009 MP3 500. I think those that are seeing the issue are those who have had stress placed on the juncture, either from dropping, towing, near drops, etc. I towed mine 300 miles after purchasing out of state from its previous owner. Since then it's been towed two more times to/from the shop. I've also had near drops where it took all the strength I could muster to save my baby from the asphalt. With the weight of the dual wheel frontend, I can't imagine that not putting a tremendous amount of stress on the steering tube clamp.

Like you said, when this surfaces, it could get really ugly for the unfortunate people who are onboard, As such, I really think everyone should get an reinforcement insert placed in their steering tube regardless of whether their handlebars have come loose or not. To me it's a time bomb waiting to happen for everyone so better to be proactive than reactive.

I suppose that would be smart. It was as I recall necessary to get a machine shop to make the part? Whatever it costs would be cheap cheap cheap compared to having your handlebars come loose at any speed.

So, you towed it multiple times strapped it down by the handlebars and you are saying this is a defect? Think Piaggio may even state in the manual not to tie down by the bars, will have to look this evening, but sure I read that.
I have had my bike for a year and a half and have had no issues. I have seen about few people on here with loose bars and tightening them up has fixed 99% of them. I just don't see how this is a defect. If you don't like the design go to a machine shop and have them make you a plug for $20-$50 to put in the hollow tube, then you can crank the bolt down as tight as you like and not have to worry about crushing the steering tube. There is no way the bars can come off and you can't turn the bars more than a few degrees without the wheels turning as long as the bolt is installed. And since when riding you don't turn the bars, you just push down on them I don't seen the big danger. They aren't just going to come loose all of a sudden, it will get looser over time and if you ignore it, it could become very lose and be dangerous. But if you don't notice them coming loose, maybe you should pay a little more attention when you get on the bike or just not ride.

Wayne B

Not sure where your attitude is coming from Wayne. I am sharing this information for others' benefit and safety. If you can find where in the manual it says not to tie down by the bars, I would love to see you quote it. Funny that's how the authorized Piaggio dealer (not towing service) towed my 500 to their shop. They strapped it down using canyon dancer on the handlebar ONLY. No other strapping (backend, etc.) was done. I at least strapped at 6 different points when I transported.

When tightened to the recommended torque the handlebar still comes loose eventually. When tightened enough to prevent twisting, the steering tube warps. How is this not a defect? If it's not a defect why does Piaggio bother sending two people to the shop to look at it? If it's not a defect why is Piaggio attempting to fix it even though my MP3 is out of warranty? If it's not a defect why are they making a modification to it rather than leaving everything as designed?

Why would I want to tighten it as much as I like? If you are such a stickler for what's in the manual, shouldn't I be tightening it according to spec? And shouldn't it stay fixed at the point? Your logic escapes me.

I do notice it coming loose hence why I keep bringing it back to the shop. Why are you so sure it won't ever come very loose unexpectedly. Read what I posted, that's what happened to my mechanic and he nearly dropped it. I am pretty sure he knows what he's doing If your definition of a few degrees is less than 5, then you are dead wrong. When it happened to me it was easily 30.

With attitude like yours on the forum, I will think twice before contributing on the forum in the future.

See my post above. Your bike has been 'molested'.

I've had no problems like that in over 15 years of riding Piaggio bikes - and yes a few have met the floor, sometimes under the kick-force of a potential thief who soon found they couldn't break the steering lock. Unlike some other marques which give in if sneezed at (Peugeot in particular).

The inner liner being introduced is a good way of resurrecting a steering tube that has been crushed by over-tightening or other forces. To my mind it constitues a ' good fix' - no more needs to be done. I'll remember that as a way to get around the problem of some numpty owner over-tightening the pinch bolt.

Jim,

Out of curiosity, all the Piaggio bikes you owned, did they possess the same steering tube clamp design as the Fuoco?

This isn't a unique design, lots of manufactures use such a design.

From what I read, sounds like your tech over tightened the the bolt or if it was moving back and forth for a while before you took it to the dealer, you caused the fitting between the two parts to wear enough that the clamp wouldn't hold anymore.

Wayne B

Yes. Well-proven.

akela I hope you reconsider this. try not to take some of the strong opinions you will see here personally. for the most part (discounting the occasional troll) on this forum you will encounter some very knowledgable folks and once you get more exposure here you will see that these are not personnal attacks merely no bullshit opinions. every contributing member is valuable and that's what make this site the best. keep smilin', and ridin' and hope you get your problem fixed soon.

Just got my new '09 MP3 500 2 days ago. Last night, I noticed that the steering is a little bit cocked to the right, even though the thing goes totally straight. If I take off the 4 allen bolts on the stem holding the handlebars, can I get to what I need to straighten it back out? If it's something simple, I would just do it myself and not bring it to the dealer.

Also, there's a gap in the plastics, on the left side, by where the reflector is. The smooth finished piece doesn't line up well with the rough finished piece. I looked at the screws and nothing has been touched. I'm assuming the manufacturer put it together this way and the pre delivery inspection person sucks. Should be an easy fix, right? Take the panels off and just put them back on?

New to the MP3, but not to Vespas. Used to ride an LX150 for a little bit (fiance's scooter).

This is easy enough to address if you have the necessary torque wrenches. However, if your bike is new and under warranty I highly recommend that you take it in and have the dealer deal with it. That way you don't have to deal with what I am currently going through if the steering tube gets warped.

That is IF the mechanic uses a torque wrench and doesn't just straighten the handlebars and then crank the bolt down nice and tight.
If you have a torque wrench tighten it yourself.

Wayne B

I'm gonna do it myself. If it moves a second time, it will go to the dealership.

480 inch pounds is the correct torque or this? 40 ft/lbs? I don't think my torque wrench reads in inch pounds.

50 to 55Nm = 36 to 41 ftlb

Just a thanks for this thread, for when I took the ferry across Lake Michigan they have you tie down your own scooter/bike. Well this thread came to mind and had that scoot tied down in no time flat. Just one of the things that I've learned on the forum that made the trip just that little bit easier and problem free.

Thanks,
Tross

sorry to hear about this

Don't be too sorry nick since it happened 3 years ago.

And, for the most part, is a discussion about how the pinch bolt (or crown bolt) on most all scooters and motorcycles works. If there were a "spline to spline" fit rather than a friction clamp on a tube - even a minor drop in the driveway would permanently bend the bars or steering head.

Does anyone know what the inside diameter of the center steering tube is when new? I'm thinking of fabricating an insert. Why? Just cause!

I was thinking about doing the same thing ponydrvr

My MP3 is pretty much naked now. I guess I'll go measure mine. I am just concerned that since my last get off the diameter might be somewhat smaller than it should be. The handlebars aren't loose.....just concerned.

Akela's was fixed by machining a piece to go inside the tube so the clamp could be tightened and hold. I saw it in the shop in Atlanta and yes it was 3 years ago.

This would make a perfect shadetree after market upgrade. First we had the "Fuzzy Washer" than the "UFP/XT & UPP" now the "Akela SqueezePlug".

how much torque can the steering column take before being damaged or crushed. just curious?

Do you think it could take

T=r X F

500 pounds?

jimc posted the specs earlier in this thread.

what kind of bolt does the handle bar 4 top bolts take? Any idea?

Threading?

i had a minor accident with my MP3 250 and the mp3 steering is a double sided clamp, one left and one right that presses against the rod from two sides, like a sandwhich which is the steering bar. It is apparently designed to loosen with slight impact to not damage any linkage components and it is easy to tighten after taking off the cover hiding it. It is similar to the type of clamp used in attaching an antenna to a chimney mount clamp. two pieces of metal going around a bar with a double set of screws to clamp each side independently. After my minor incident the steering had a huge amount of play in it and I was afraid that I had broken some component in my steering links, but no. It is a rather brilliant design, letting go but not damaging the connection.