OP
@birdsnest avatar
UTC

Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VMA VSX - o9c vmb vse
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8887
Location: Hustletown, TX
 
Not So Moderator
@birdsnest avatar
VNB VSC VMA VSX - o9c vmb vse
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8887
Location: Hustletown, TX
UTC quote
Hmmm. Crank, primary, etc... everything turned. Put the cases together, turned the crank, tested the kickstart lever and everything was working great. Tightened up the case screws (hand tight) and now nothing.

Any thoughts?

I know I will be opening the cases up to address this speed bump...(grrrr), just wondering what to be on the look out for.


UPDATE posted below on 9/29
⚠️ Last edited by Birdsnest on UTC; edited 1 time
OP
@birdsnest avatar
UTC

Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VMA VSX - o9c vmb vse
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8887
Location: Hustletown, TX
 
Not So Moderator
@birdsnest avatar
VNB VSC VMA VSX - o9c vmb vse
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8887
Location: Hustletown, TX
UTC quote
Well, this is a pickle. Split the cases (again). I was hoping it would be something silly like the kickstart spring being dislodged and gumming up the works. Instead, it just appears like the crank is seized-up. I started to remove the clutch, but the clutch nut tool keeps slipping on the castle nut. Too irritated to keep at it, I threw in the towel for the night.



Again, any thoughts or or ideas appreciated....
UTC

nothing at all
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9656
Location: westla
 
nothing at all
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9656
Location: westla
UTC quote
is it in your patience to take everything apart and start over
OP
@birdsnest avatar
UTC

Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VMA VSX - o9c vmb vse
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8887
Location: Hustletown, TX
 
Not So Moderator
@birdsnest avatar
VNB VSC VMA VSX - o9c vmb vse
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8887
Location: Hustletown, TX
UTC quote
Oh absolutely... that's the plan, and no other choice really.

I started the morning with coffee and the clutch nut tool. Looks like I am cooked for the day though; the clutch nut tool just won't bite and looks worn in places. Last thing I wanna do is strip the pegs on the castle nut itself, so I'll call Soho and see if they have one tomorrow. If not, it's more effin' mail-order waiting.

%^@#!$ *#$@in piece of &(*#@
UTC

nothing at all
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9656
Location: westla
 
nothing at all
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9656
Location: westla
UTC quote
thats the worst

you get motivated and then sidelined by mail
@quasi-moto avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
SawStop
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5391
Location: Puyallup, WA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@quasi-moto avatar
SawStop
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5391
Location: Puyallup, WA
UTC quote
Birdsnest,

Is this a motor in which all the parts were working together before you cracked the cases?

The reason I ask is that I rebuilt a motor and bought new gears for it, and one of the gears was slightly thicker than the others. Everything seemed right, until I closed the cases, and then it caused the gears to bind.

Your situation may be different, just thought I'd mention it.

Len
UTC

nothing at all
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9656
Location: westla
 
nothing at all
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9656
Location: westla
UTC quote
i remember that len
OP
@birdsnest avatar
UTC

Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VMA VSX - o9c vmb vse
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8887
Location: Hustletown, TX
 
Not So Moderator
@birdsnest avatar
VNB VSC VMA VSX - o9c vmb vse
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8887
Location: Hustletown, TX
UTC quote
Thanks Len. I split the cases to replace a bad clutch-side seal. I only replaced the other ware parts and cleaned. As I mentioned, everything was great after I joined the cases, it wasn't until I hand tightened the case screws that it all went to crap. Weird.

I'll report more as soon as I can get the damn castle nut off.
UTC

nothing at all
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9656
Location: westla
 
nothing at all
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9656
Location: westla
UTC quote
so the cases sandwiched fine with no gap

and only when you tightened the nuts it went south

it sounds to me like a binding in an area with very very tight tolerances

crank
OP
@birdsnest avatar
UTC

Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VMA VSX - o9c vmb vse
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8887
Location: Hustletown, TX
 
Not So Moderator
@birdsnest avatar
VNB VSC VMA VSX - o9c vmb vse
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8887
Location: Hustletown, TX
UTC quote
Yes sir. I had a slight gap, but moved the kick start and they came together flush. They looked great. Checked the kick start again and it moved freely as did the crank, etc. Put the 4 nuts on flywheel area case screws and checked the crank again: it was smooth as butter. Put the other case screws in, turned the crank and nothing. Kickstart - nothing.
UTC

nothing at all
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9656
Location: westla
 
nothing at all
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9656
Location: westla
UTC quote
WEIRD Nerd emoticon
@ktmdriver avatar
UTC

Hooked
SS-180 x 1 (dead) SS-180 x1 (3'rd times the charm)SS-90 x 1 GS-160 MK1 x 1 P-200e x1 TV 175 S2
Joined: UTC
Posts: 237
Location: San Diego, California
 
Hooked
@ktmdriver avatar
SS-180 x 1 (dead) SS-180 x1 (3'rd times the charm)SS-90 x 1 GS-160 MK1 x 1 P-200e x1 TV 175 S2
Joined: UTC
Posts: 237
Location: San Diego, California
UTC quote
A possibility is warped cases. When you removed the nuts, did you cross pattern them ? The other possible situation is the crank is not seated flush. How did you put the crank in? Did you use a puller ? What kind of motor is this specifically? Small frame , large frame, piston ported or disc valve? If it is a VBB motor you need a special bullet style seal tool when installing the crank or the lip of the new seal can fold over and cause a problem with clearance and later seal problems. The piston ported engine does not have this problem and doesn't require the tool.

A method I use for re-installing bearings and close tolerance parts is using a heat gun as opposed to flame
as the gun heats the area more evenly. When cooling down the part such as a crank I use a computer air duster and just turn it upside down. The propellant will chill the part down to where it needs to be if a feezer is not nearby
@ktmdriver avatar
UTC

Hooked
SS-180 x 1 (dead) SS-180 x1 (3'rd times the charm)SS-90 x 1 GS-160 MK1 x 1 P-200e x1 TV 175 S2
Joined: UTC
Posts: 237
Location: San Diego, California
 
Hooked
@ktmdriver avatar
SS-180 x 1 (dead) SS-180 x1 (3'rd times the charm)SS-90 x 1 GS-160 MK1 x 1 P-200e x1 TV 175 S2
Joined: UTC
Posts: 237
Location: San Diego, California
UTC quote
Sorry I must have missed the castellated nut, obviously you don't have a gs ss motor because they take another proprietary tool. Get your dremel tool or small diamond file and clean up the edges of your clutch tool. Place it on a 3/8 drive impact tool and go at it. Do you have clutch basket holding tool ? Forget using a ratchet you bust knuckles and clutch tools and worse strip the castellated nut.

Good luck and remember it's all about the proper tools
@smallstate avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
'66 Sears Allstate 788.94370 '65 Vespa V9A1T
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1236
Location: Roseville, MI
 
Molto Verboso
@smallstate avatar
'66 Sears Allstate 788.94370 '65 Vespa V9A1T
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1236
Location: Roseville, MI
UTC quote
i had an experience like this when i tuned my vma1t. i put it all together and pushed the kickstart lever and... nothing. stuck. took everything back out... put it back together and all was good in the world. to this day, i have no idea what was wrong.
@rover_eric avatar
UTC

Moderator
1965 Vespa SS180, 1963 Lambretta LI150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 6980
Location: Detroit, Michigan
 
Moderator
@rover_eric avatar
1965 Vespa SS180, 1963 Lambretta LI150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 6980
Location: Detroit, Michigan
UTC quote
Is this a smallie engine, or largeframe?
OP
@birdsnest avatar
UTC

Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VMA VSX - o9c vmb vse
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8887
Location: Hustletown, TX
 
Not So Moderator
@birdsnest avatar
VNB VSC VMA VSX - o9c vmb vse
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8887
Location: Hustletown, TX
UTC quote
Sorry gang, I should have mentioned... this is on my VSX.

KTM, thanks for the thoughts/comments. I pressed the crank in using the luddite method: I used a punch/drift to bang it into place. But, I was as careful as that method allows, and I don't suspect a warped or bent crank as the culprit. However, maybe it is not seated flush...
OP
@birdsnest avatar
UTC

Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VMA VSX - o9c vmb vse
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8887
Location: Hustletown, TX
 
Not So Moderator
@birdsnest avatar
VNB VSC VMA VSX - o9c vmb vse
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8887
Location: Hustletown, TX
UTC quote
Mystery solved and cases closed.

A big shout of thanks to Rick and Soho Vintage of Hustletown. He let me run the case in, stopped what he was doing and got his electric impact wrench to remove the stuck castle-nut. I had to laugh... I probably spent 5 hours on Sunday and Monday trying with my hand held impact wrench while busting my knuckles. Crying or Very sad emoticon It took him all of 20 seconds. So, on my Power tool want list: Impact Wrench.

Anyway, here's what was gumming up all the gears:
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

The oil metering drive shaft had slipped and then lodged itself in the little worm gear next to it. Best I can figure, it occurred when I rotated/tilted the cases while getting at a hard to reach case screw. File that under: silly mistake.

Got home and buttoned up the cases. All is good. Onwards and upwards.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
(Note the blue painters tape that I have now secured the metering shaft with... call me paranoid. Razz emoticon )
UTC

Hooked
1974 Rally 200, 2009 Yamaha C3, 2010 Honda SH150i
Joined: UTC
Posts: 403
Location: san francisco
 
Hooked
1974 Rally 200, 2009 Yamaha C3, 2010 Honda SH150i
Joined: UTC
Posts: 403
Location: san francisco
UTC quote
how did it slip downward? i'm not connecting the dots here. should stick up out of where it's pictured to mate with the pump in the airbox, and the bottom of it should be resting/supported inside the clutch cover. also, i'm pretty impressed that that little piece was able to bind up the whole engine via the worm gear.
OP
@birdsnest avatar
UTC

Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VMA VSX - o9c vmb vse
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8887
Location: Hustletown, TX
 
Not So Moderator
@birdsnest avatar
VNB VSC VMA VSX - o9c vmb vse
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8887
Location: Hustletown, TX
UTC quote
The bottom of the oil metering drive shaft sits on a little ledge/shelf behind the clutch. The shelf is circular with a little female indentation to seat the drive shaft. It fell back in on the raised edge of the shelf, above the little female indentation. Maybe 2-3 millimeters off center... so when I spun the crank, the gears on the O.M. dirve shaft fouled in the little gear next to it...

I too was amazed that it was stuck, and amazed at how much force it took to beat that little bastard up and out.
UTC

Hooked
1974 Rally 200, 2009 Yamaha C3, 2010 Honda SH150i
Joined: UTC
Posts: 403
Location: san francisco
 
Hooked
1974 Rally 200, 2009 Yamaha C3, 2010 Honda SH150i
Joined: UTC
Posts: 403
Location: san francisco
UTC quote
Birdsnest wrote:
The bottom of the oil metering drive shaft sits on a little ledge/shelf behind the clutch. The shelf is circular with a little female indentation to seat the drive shaft. It fell back in on the raised edge of the shelf, above the little female indentation. Maybe 2-3 millimeters off center... so when I spun the crank, the gears on the O.M. dirve shaft fouled in the little gear next to it...

I too was amazed that it was stuck, and amazed at how much force it took to beat that little bastard up and out.
ahhh, ok.

so it looks like you got a little damage there on the gear teeth. doesn't look particularly bad in the picture, but make sure that shit ain't gonna bind up in there again somehow.
@smallstate avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
'66 Sears Allstate 788.94370 '65 Vespa V9A1T
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1236
Location: Roseville, MI
 
Molto Verboso
@smallstate avatar
'66 Sears Allstate 788.94370 '65 Vespa V9A1T
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1236
Location: Roseville, MI
UTC quote
there you have it, fishbulb.
@rover_eric avatar
UTC

Moderator
1965 Vespa SS180, 1963 Lambretta LI150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 6980
Location: Detroit, Michigan
 
Moderator
@rover_eric avatar
1965 Vespa SS180, 1963 Lambretta LI150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 6980
Location: Detroit, Michigan
UTC quote
smallstate wrote:
there you have it, fishbulb.
I AM DISRESPECTFUL TO DIRT! Can you see i am serious?!
OP
@birdsnest avatar
UTC

Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VMA VSX - o9c vmb vse
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8887
Location: Hustletown, TX
 
Not So Moderator
@birdsnest avatar
VNB VSC VMA VSX - o9c vmb vse
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8887
Location: Hustletown, TX
UTC quote
Rover Eric wrote:
smallstate wrote:
there you have it, fishbulb.
I AM DISRESPECTFUL TO DIRT! Can you see i am serious?!
You beat me too it.... 8)

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
@eldorado avatar
UTC

Hooked
1980 Vespa P200E, 1981 Serveta Jet 200, 1982 BMW R100, 2003 BMW F650GS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 153
Location: Chicago
 
Hooked
@eldorado avatar
1980 Vespa P200E, 1981 Serveta Jet 200, 1982 BMW R100, 2003 BMW F650GS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 153
Location: Chicago
UTC quote
Damn! Glad you got it sorted. I usually put the oil meter drive gear in after putting the cases together but before I put the clutch cover on, since it drops right down in there.
DoubleGood Design banner

Modern Vespa is the premier site for modern Vespa and Piaggio scooters. Vespa GTS300, GTS250, GTV, GT200, LX150, LXS, ET4, ET2, MP3, Fuoco, Elettrica and more.

Buy Me A Coffee
 

Shop on Amazon with Modern Vespa

Modern Vespa is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to amazon.com


All Content Copyright 2005-2025 by Modern Vespa.
All Rights Reserved.


[ Time: 0.0242s ][ Queries: 3 (0.0114s) ][ live ][ 327 ][ ThingOne ]