Modern Vespa

I thought I'd share this with everyone/anyone considering the purchase of a new scooter. I begin by saying what I describe below is completely avoidable and I don't hold any particular ill will toward the seller.

This story also probably applies to used scoots, too....

I just looked at the registration paperwork for my new scooter, purchased from an official dealership. I bought it out of the dealer's showroom, expecting what I was buying was a current-year model (2009). Much to my dismay, the registration shows it to be a 2008. They sold me last year's model at this year's price.

Now bear in mind that I never explicitly asked "Is this a 2009?" Mistake #1 since that's what I was shopping for. Mistake #2: not checking the title and registration papers that I signed. Clue #1: This dealer was very willing to negotiate price, which others weren't. Another hint they were willing to take money off to move the unit out of inventory.

In the long run, the 2008 and 09 models are not significantly different and mine was new: no miles on it other than the test ride by the mechanic. But I'm still peeved at myself for not checking the fine print on the papers.

If model year matters to you, ask the dealer specifically "What year model is this?" and check the title and registration papers before you sign for it.

Cheers

Thanks for the interesting post. All vehicles in here in NZ (four wheels or two) must display a 'Window Card' and you are given that as part of the paperwork. The window card is a very simple A4 document that hangs in a plastic pocket attached to the vehicle identifying Make/Model, year of manufacture, year of importation, number of owners, milage/kms and sale price. It is void of all the 'legal stuff'. If you haggle down the price then it has to be written down on the window card. Of course we still have the fine print on a sale and purchase and finance agrrement but the window card makes the topic of your post very clear. I don't know how US or NY State laws work but it still seems like you were treated a little unfairly. You say 'Buyer Beware' but I wonder if the dealer would be willing to discuss a the matter with a view to a small rebate or perhaps some service or discount on riding gear as goodwill???
Good luck.

I think they were fair to me with the price so, in a sense, they gave me my "rebate." I was initially very angry and then realized that I was a little too anxious to make a purchase without asking all the usual questions I'd ask when purchasing a vehicle.

Having said all that, if they told me up front it was a 2008 and it would take weeks for a 2009 to arrive, I probably would have purchased anyhow but negotiated a little harder on the price.

At least in the shops I went to, there's no way to know the model year unless you ask. So ask......

If you were expecting a 2009, and received a 2008, I can understand why you feel upset. Take some comfort in knowing that Vespa does not change its models each year. It is not like buying a car where there are some changes between models each year. So, a 2008 and 2009 are not any different from one another, other than perhaps some colour options (and the VIN number). If you received a 2008 with full warranty, then you will essentially have as good a scooter as a 2009. If you were able to get a good price on it, then that is even better.

The 2008 GTS is a nice scooter. You'll enjoy it!

If it's the only bike he has in stock you don't have much leverage. But then again, 2008s are basically the same as 2009s. Sometimes there's am additional color offering or something obscure most might not notice changes (eg the way the battery leads are accessible in the GTS), but that's mostly it.

Nothing to bother getting angry over I'd say. The fixation on model year is a carry over from cars.

I don't blame you for being upset ... not that there is anything you can do about it after the fact. Why wouldn't you think you were buying a current year model? It is well into 2009, after all. Every motorcycle store I've been in has a the bikes tagged with the model year. I don't know why Vespas would be any different. If you weren't dealing with the owner of the shop, you should at least call and discuss it with them.

I agree that the model year thing with Vespas is a little strange. My husband bought my scooter for me as a gift, so he did the negotiations. My dealer told him that it was a 2007; I received it in April 2009. It had less than 15 miles on it. It had never been registered, so it was pretty much new. Since my husband knew it was older, the dealer was willing to haggle for a good deal. I would have preferred to get a used one, but there were none available in Texas in the year and half that I looked.

It can be nice though to get a deal. I don't think it will affect resale like cars. I suspect mileage is more important for scooters.

For what its worth, I wouldn't get too worked up about it.
My first scooter was a 2003 which was stolen very soon after I bought it. My insurance bought it's replacement about a month later (thank God I bought the "good" coverage) which was a 2004.

Absolutely identical.

I supposed it would be nice if the dealer had said something, if nothing more than "it's the same scooter for the same price but it was made in 20XX." At least you would know. Like other have said, it's a bit different than we are used to with cars.

Enjoy.

It would piss me off but as others have said it's the same scooter. Now next year 2010 will be fuel injected on the LX models then if it happened then i'd be camping out on their doorstep Hope you get some freebies or something just cuz.

My GTS 250 was sold to me as a 2007 model. In fact, on the papers they wrote 2007. I wasn't able to negotiate a discount on it since it was the current year model. Anyhow, it wasn't until I had my accident last year that I found out that it was in fact a 2006 when the insurance adjuster told me. Then I looked up the VIN and discovered that in fact I was sold an older model year GTS for the current year price.

In fact as others have said, since there is little difference in equipment or specifications, there is little damage done for you since you did negotiate a discount. I wouldn't be upset in your situation but one does need to be a bit more careful if model year is something important to you.

As has been discussed ad nauseum in other threads, "Model Year" on Piaggio scooters does not have the significance it does for cars sold in the US. Piaggio assigns a "Model Year" to US market scooters only because US law requires it.

Al

The topic of model years comes up time and again and most will tell you that the year the scooter was manufactured doesn't matter, it is the year it is put into commission that matters. That may be true in Europe, but in the US, Canada and elsewhere in the world, the valuation system is based on year of manufacture.

I decided to check the Kelly Blue Book to see if in fact there is any difference in the book value of a 2008 GTS 250 and a 2009 GTS 250.

The 2008 blue book value - $4,895.00 http://www.kbb.com/motorcycle/retail/2008/vespa/gts-250/254674

The 2009 Blue Book Value - $5,240.00 http://www.kbb.com/motorcycle/retail/2009/vespa/gts-250/254681

If your scooter was manufactured in 2008, and if you paid more than the Kelly Blue Book retail value indicates, I would go back to the dealer and ask him to at least match the blue book price.

Nice find Traffic Jammer.

I would suggest that you have it backwards, Liane. In the US (and I think Canada, as well) market, for example, a "Model Year" is assigned to a motor vehicle at the time of manufacture and incorporated into the VIN. Typically, 2009 "Model Year" scooters are manufactured in 2008 and 2009. Kelly's Blue Book bases value on "Model Year", not year of manufacture.

US law refers to an "annual production period" which is when a company declares that a given "model year" is manufactured. Car manufacturers set this for their company. This could be from Jul 1 to Jun 30, for example. Does not necessarily have to be 365 days. Every brand X car manufactured between Jul 1, 2009 and Jun 30, 2010, would thus be a 2010. If the manufacturer does not set "annual production years", then calendar year of manufacture determines the "model year". And, IIRC, a manufacturer must begin calling a vehicle manufactured on or after Jan 1 of a calendar year the "model year" of that new calendar year. So, no matter how popular the 2009 Mustang might be, those made on or after Jan 1, 2010 must be labeled 2010 Mustangs, even if not one item is changed. Of course, Ford declares the new Model year much earlier than Jan 1, so this doesn't happen.

Since US spec scooters must be made in discreet runs by Piaggio, they can assign "model years" in a manner familiar to US customers. There is no guarantee that a 2010 differs from a 2009 (or a 2008). It simply identifies that the scooter was manufactured during the time frame selected for identification as that specific "model year".

Regardless of when a US market vehicle is registered for the first time, the "Model Year" on the registration will reflect the "Model Year" applied at time of manufacture. There are currently "2010 Fords" on US dealers' lots. Even though one bought today would be registered in calendar year 2009, it would be titled and registered as a 2010.

In Europe and some other areas, there is no "Model Year Digit" in the VIN. Valuation is typically based upon when the vehicle was first registered by a customer.

Al

And that's the point of my post. That if the model year is important, one had better read the registration and title papers closely.

Model year for cars sold new in the US is very specific as safety and emission rules are tied to "model year". I am not positive that motorcycles follow the same rules but it is a reasonable assumption.
The model year specified on the title and the VIN can be the current year or the upcoming year. I.e. If the vehicle is made during 2009 it can be vinned as a 2009 or a 2010. Typical production run cycles go from July to June, that is 2009 models were manufactured between July 2008 and June 2009. This gives manufacturers some flexibility to introduce new models a few months early, like in the spring, or to extend the runs few months in the case of a model or plant that will be retooled or shut down.

My first Vespa, purchased in July 2008 was sold to me as a 2008 model. All the paperwork said 2008. The dealer had only been in business for about 6 months. The BMV informed me it was a 2009. The title and VIN confirm its a 2009. I bought a second one 3 weeks later from a different dealer. ALL his Vespa's (2 dozen) were 2008s. The out the door price was more or less the same on both. The current NADA value is $110 higher on the 2009 vs 2008. Not a significant amount. If I was gonna sell both scooters I imagine the color choice between the 2 would have more effect on price than the model year. Everyone would have a preference in the otherwise visually identical scoots. My insurance is 60 cents cheaper PER YEAR on the 2008 vs the 2009 and the 2009 license plates cost me $16 more than the 2008. Once again not real significant but at this point I wish they were both 2008s since I just wrote a check to the BMV.

Yes, giles, but once a manufacturer begins producing any vehicles in what they call a new model year, they cannot produce any more vehicles claiming to be the previous model year. So Ford cannot produce 2009 Victorias and 2010 Focuses at the same time. However, on Jan of a given year, if the manufacturer hasn't changed the "annual production period" to that year, by law they must label vehicles produced in Jan and subsequent to carry the year as the "model year".

It is simply US custom that auto makers change their "annual production period" in the summer/late summer to produce the next "model year's" autos.

That is what I referred to as "annual production period", and it applies to all motor vehicles sold in the US.

In the case of manufacturers whose production for the US market is limited and intermittent, model years are a royal PITA. Thus, Piaggio created the 2005 PX150 "Serie America" limited production scooter, hoping that giving them a unique "Number X of 500" would help them hold their value on the showroom floor if demand didn't snap them up in the 2005 "Model Year" selling season.

Al

I like that you took responsibility for not investigating fully on your own. It's refreshing.

What city are you in?

In the US, model year is important to buyers when they are shopping for a vehicle. Sellers are aware of this fact, and buyers are aware of this fact. Anything with wheels is sold this way. Vespa seems to be the only vehicle manufacturer that this doesn't apply to. Sellers should put a sign in their windows so that buyers don't feel duped when they are sold something that is not the current model available. US buyers have come to accept that previous year's models will be discounted, even if they are brand new. Also, someone who has never purchased a new Vespa might not be aware of the fact that current year models are not normally discounted, so getting a discount won't necessarily tip them off to the fact that they are getting an "older" model.

I understand the buyers frustration because he purchased his scooter thinking that the seller would have disclosed that he was not purchasing a current model scooter. Whether or not he would have bought it anyway is beside the point. The seller should have disclosed the information and they would have ended up with a happy customer, instead of one who has a bad taste in his mouth.

Just my opinion. Things like this do happen, though, so it is wise to look before you sign. Even then, as some others have already mentioned, that is not a guarantee that you are going to get the model year you think you are getting. A phone call to your insurance company with the VIN number would clear up any questions about the model year.

Great post and very helpful. What I found interesting is that you did not buy from the same dealer? Did you run into some issues?

There is a sticker stuck to the inside of the frame, visible after you've removed the pet-carrier with the model year, and the italian name for the paint color plastered inside there.

As you so accurately named this post "caveat emptor", yes...Buyer Beware, but the model year is not really such a big deal with these things. It was by your own admission, your assumption and not an attempt at misleading you by the dealer that led to this confusion over the model year of your Vespa.

IMO, NOT worth losing any sleep over, if you like the scooter and enjoy riding it that small difference is going to be meaningless to you in terms of your Vespa "experience".

If it IS that big a deal to you, perhaps try to (without ruining your new relationship with your dealer) explain your position to him, and maybe negotiate a free oil-change or something similar to help offset the very small difference in "value" between the 2 model years. If he's a wise businessman, he'll try to maintain your goodwill and you two can scoot-on happily everafter.

You make a good point Al. I should have said "Model year" rather than year of manufacture. However, I don't think I had anything backwards ... most understood my intent.

North Americans understand the North American system and I think it stands to reason that any vehicles sold in North America should adhere to the standards held by that country. Almost anyone buying or selling a used vehicle will check the Kelly Blue Book values. The fact remains that a 2008 scooter sold as new in 2009 will not hold the same resale value as a 2009 scooter sold as new in 2009 given identical use, mileage and condition.

My point is that a North American buyer will always try to wheedle down the price if the scooter is stamped a year older. If you saw two identical scooters on a showroom floor and their prices were identical but one was stamped 2008 and the other 2009, which would you choose?

We are getting a bit off track here with regard to scooters, but as far as auto "annual production period" there really is no such thing. A manufacturer such as Ford or GM or Toyota can make 2009 and 2010 models simultaneously of different car lines . They cannot go back and make 2009 versions of a particular model once 2010 production commences, but it is actually quite common to introduce a new 2010 model (such as 2010 Camaro) while several other 2009s are still in production. The only legal requirement for assigning a model year is that the production must be continuous - you can't go back to a prior year for a given model, and the assigned year has to be the current calendar year (2009) or the upcoming calendar year (2010).

In reference to Scooters my local dealer had 2010 pink LX150s before he had any other 2010 models. Not sure how they vinned those and if other color 2009 LX150s were made at the same time. I suspect that was not the case but rather that all of the first 2010 LX150s were pink. If anyone know please post.

Rule #1: When purchasing a vehicle, leave your emotions at the door.

I bought the first Vespa from a local FORD dealer who had started selling Vespa scooters. No problem with the FORD dealer. It was a bit of an impulse purchase but there was 2 weeks between my first visit to the dealer and the day of purchase. In those 2 weeks I became more Vespa educated than the dealers sales people. So, by the time I was ready to buy another scoot I discovered 2 other Vespa dealers within 30 miles that had at least 2 years experience with the scooters. I chose to buy from 1 of them.

I would invite your attention to 40 CFR 85.2302 and 40 CFR 85.2304 which defines "Model Year" and "Annual Production Period". Also note that vehicles sharing the same engine family are grouped into the same "annual production period" regardless of badging.

It's a hell of a lot more complicated than most folks think.

Al

Yes, leave them at the door but remember to bring your common sense! The dealer is not there to look after the buyer's interests, only his/her own. I'm not suggesting there was anything nepharious. It was my obligation to ask the appropriate questions. I just hope at least one person will read this thread and do what I did not.

The best dealers try to make the two coincide. Sometimes even turning down inappropriate sales. Thereby always having contented customers who will probably come back.

Since Vespas in the US market are intermittent production, low volume vehicles, you have raised a good point. Older "model year" machines are more likely to be on the showroom floor than is normally experienced with cars.

Al

Al,
I am actually familiar with this particular part of the Federal Register, although I will admit I was not familiar with the specific term "annual production period".
Anway if you read the cited passage it confirms precisely what I stated earlier...

"when any vehicle or engine within the engine family is first produced; or on January 2 of the calendar year preceding the year for which the model year is designated, whichever date is later. The annual production period ends either: When the last such vehicle or engine is produced; or on December 31 of the calendar year for which the model year is named, whichever date is sooner."

In other words lets take the 2010 Camaros and Mustangs as they were introduced early this spring. The law states that when an engine family is first produced (back in March '09 in the case of the 2010 Camaro) then it can be designated as a 2010 with the "production period" commencing on the actual date, lets assume 3/15/09, or on 1/2/09 whichever is later. In this case it would be 3/15/09. The production period ends when the last vehicle is produced, which will be approx 6/30/10 or Dec 31 of the caledar year for which the model is named (2010 in this case) whichever is sooner. So in the case of the 2010 Camaro the model run will stretch from 3/09 to 6/10. Again a given model can be produced in the preceding year and the designated calendar year but no other time. In the referenced case that means a 2010 can be produced in 2009 and 2010, but not 2008 or 2011.


No nibbles on the comment about all of the first 2010 LX150s being painted pink???? I guess I will investigate some VINs the next time I am at the dealer.

Isn't this pretty much numero uno? While I don't think model year differences in scooters generally amount to much, I do think purchasing a motor vehicle is a significant business transaction and not reading the terms of the agreement before signing is a pretty big oversight IMO.

Absolutely! A good dealer is interested in selling you a third and fourth vehicle, but my experience is that they are in the minority. Most dealers, unfortunately, are only trying to get this one pushed over the curb.

I bought my 2006 GT200 in 2007; the dealer (Vespa of Columbus, now Motohio) was very clear about it being the previous year's model. In fact, they were having a sale specifically to clear out the old models and I got a good deal. It was still a new scooter, with about 6 miles on the odometer.

I agree with those in this thread who say that any dealer who expects repeat business will make the effort to give as much info as possible, instead of just what's required by law.

I agree with the concept that it is odd that Vespa dealers do not always see fit to display the model year. I have recently looked at "new" scooters at my local dealer that ranged from 2007 to 2009. You only know by asking.
The model year is important financially, ask your lender or insurance company or try to sell. The perception is that a newer model is worth more.

When I was in Toronto in July, I saw a pink LX with a kick starter and all the other LX's in the shop had no kick starter. All were supposedly 2009 models and being sold as such. I have no clue how Vespa dates their production models. Precisely!

I have the opposite situation with my LX 150. It was bought by the original owner in July of '05 but the title says it's an '06.

Liane-

For the vast majority of Vespas made (those for markets other than North America) Vespa simply records the production date. For non-US/Canadian markets, as I have said before, there is not a "model year". When Piaggio makes scooters for the US market (and probably Canada as well), it is done in a discreet production run specifically for the US, and based upon the date the run is made, a "model year" is assigned to meet US law. Since Piaggio does not make a significant number of scooters for the US, they do not "change over" the specifications of the scooter based on US "model year" as is the case with high volume auto manufacturers. Thus, two slightly different LXs could be made within what is defined as a single US "model year", as long as they meet the legally required environmental and build specifications for that "model year".

That said, Piaggio does assign "model year" to a given production run for the US market in accordance with US law. It is just that "model year" has little or no influence on when a design change is made, except when it pertains to an environmental or DOT requirement.

Al

Al, yes that is what I have heard that they do for Canada.