Modern Vespa

Hey MVers,

I just took (and passed) the basic MSF course this past weekend (ironically, riding 60 miles in the rain to get home from it). I learned a lot, especially about how a good rider thinks and sees. Anyway, I've got a few remaining questions that kind of emerged from the discussions at the MSF course. I'm not sure if they're motorcycle-specific or not (there's no scooter courses nearby).

First, brakes. I got chastised repeatedly for riding with the front brake covered by my hand, which is what I had been doing on the scooter. The thinking was, if I made sure I had to roll off the throttle to reach for the brake, I'd be compressing the front suspension with that action, increasing brake response. I'd also be less likely to panic brake and just grab a handful of front brake. Do you all do this? I've been riding my scooter since then without covering the front brake. I can't say whether I'm safer or not, since it's only important in those critical situations - is the chance of locking and highsiding from a panic brake worse than the extra reaction time needed?

Second: boots. We all hear "leather, over the ankle boots" all the time. I'm curious as to why. I didn't want to pull my annoying "but why?" routine in class, so I'm unleashing it on you all. What does the ankle protection gain in a crash? Could the same degree of protection be afforded by good pants that go down over the ankle (I've got short legs, all my pants tend to run long), or high-quality socks? Assuming you have high-quality leather shoes (say, good dr. marten 4-holers from before they moved production to china), could you get away without having to wear boots?

Third: mirrors. I typically try to ride in the middle of the lane when I'm worried about visibility. That way I'm in the rearview, and I've got multiple options for escape. The MSF course implied that I'd be better toward the left part of the lane so I show up in the sideview mirror. Do people just not check their rearviews? I frequently check all my mirrors while driving a car, but then again, I'm not a clueless idiot with no idea what's going on around me, unlike most cagers. So, which mirrors are most important?

That's all I can think of now, I'm sure I've got more later.

I don't cover my brakes except perhaps when I enter an intersection with someone waiting to make a left turn.

I seldom ever ride in the center of the lane. Firstly that is where most of the oil from cars/truck will be so it can be dangerous for that reason. Secondly, it isn't the best blocking position. It is harder to have an escape route from the centre rather than one of the tire tracks where you can more easily swerve to get out of the way.

As far as boots go, if you go down without anything protecting your ankles, you will be down to bone in seconds. The is nothing protecting your ankles other an a very thin layer of skin. You don't want to lose skin and bone with a slide on the road. Get boots that cover and protect your ankles.

Just do what they said. its good riding habbits, not that I follow the gear advice.

Riding in the middle of the lane: I'd definitely do what they recommend and be more out to the side. Make sure you can see that wing mirror - then you know the driver can see you. People really don't check their rearview mirrors - and I don't know about your area, but around here many cars have tinted rear windscreens (or so many stickers on the window and cuddly toys on the parcel shelf they can't see out).

Riding to one side also gives you an easier escape route if the car in front stops suddenly and you don't have enough distance to brake.

Ankle protection: Personally, I always keep the ankles covered. Doc Marten boots as a minimum; usually bike boots with padding over the ankle. Ankles are a fragile yet important joint, and feet are quite prone to getting trapped and crushed in a crash - between your bike and a car, or your bike and the ground, for instance.

If you fall and slide, a shoe can also be dragged off the foot much more easily than a boot can, leaving your tootsies in their socks to get scraped along the ground.

I'm sometimes guilty of covering the brake myself so I'll let someone else answer that one

Well done on taking the course, too!

Brake - don't cover the brake. It's good advice imo. Grabbing the front brake without rolling off the throttle is a ticket to falling off.

Boots - again good advice. Ankle protection means you gain er, ankle protection.

Trousers do not protect your ankles and neither do socks unless they are made of kevlar and even then there is no protection in the event of your ankle smashing into the road. Leather boots that cover the ankle are a good idea.

All personal choice mind, but for various scenarios which are too revolting to post here, my advice is to get a pair of over the ankle moto boots (or DM 8 hole at a pinch).

I usually have two fingers over my rear brake when city riding. While the rear brake isn't as effective as the front, applying it does transfer weight to the front end, setting up for more efficient front braking.

Another reason to stay out of the centre of your lane is that's where engine oil and other engine fluids drip, making it the most slippery part of the lane.


Harvey

The idea with not covering the brake is that when you do need to come to a controlled stop, as you first roll off the throttle just the tips of your fingers will start sliding over the brake lever and start the progressive braking. It's a means of making sure you don't just 'grab a handful' in an emergency. Also, it has been known for people who cover the brake to actually increase throttle in a sudden grab, with both the thumb and the fingers squeezing downwards and together.

If your ankles aren't protected, the shoe might stay on the foot, but be 25yds away from the leg. At least with boots, if you smash your ankle to bits you won't leave any of those bits on the road, but 'kept in the same bag'.

Cars may have rear-view mirrors, many vans and trucks do not. There's no point having a different lane-position strategy for every make of vehicle out there. If you can't see their mirror, they can't see you.

The tyre-track of other vehicles is always the cleanest on the road - especially important in the rain.

Also, if you are not at the side, how can you see if there's an overtaking opportunity?

I could have sworn one of the other books I read told me to cover the brake when riding. Must have been misinterpreted. That's not a hard habit to change (although going from the motorcycle to the scooter left me nervous about accidentally grabbing a handful of "clutch" in the ride home, hehe).

I guess I'm surprised about the lack of rearview-checking that's assumed. Riding in the left/right tire track is easy enough; I do that as well, it's kind of fluid depending on where I am (often in the middle of 3 lanes to begin with) and where other people are. It's just hard to believe that people don't look in their rearview. But again, I see people shaving, texting, whatever. All the time, they're moving through a world they don't really see. Bleh.

As to the ankle coverage thing, I've currently got a pair of good hiking boots (very nice ones, actually) that I've been using for the most part (I keep a pair of regular shoes at work to change into). They're not cheap, though, and I prefer to save their wear for actual hiking. I guess I'll add moto boots to the list. I'm going to get some overpants eventually (gets kind of cold in jeans), I was hoping I could do some double-duty with them.

Then again, I'm still not convinced about the safety necessity of boots, especially with the feet-in posture of a scooter. Has anyone quantified the risk associated with it? I've seen some good stuff about helmet impact location for example (which convinced me to get a FF helmet), but nothing about boots and ankles. I can definitely see how dragging an ankle on the pavement would suck, but I'm looking for something more about relative levels of injury risk at various body locations for motorcycle / scooter accidents. Because, you know, I'm a data nerd.

Stick your leg out straight and look down the outside of it. What sticks out farther than anything?

The ankle. And it's important, and it is covered by a thin layer of skin.

Not to mention in many crashes the foot turns inward and the ankle contacts the ground. This is why people wear boots in the military as well as hiking - you slip and your ankle is twisting and popping the ground. Quality boots help keep the ankle straight as well as keep it from contacting hard rocks or the street.

i don't know where to get data for ankle injuries but I was following a girl on an LX home a few weeks ago and she panic braked and the scoot dumped and she was wearing heels.

Her ankle's missing a lot of skin, especially since the scooter was laying on it when I picked it off her.

Statistically if you have an accident on a PTW, you are most likely to have damage below the knee.

As jimc says (and I was too squeamish to post), its all about keeping the bits in one place until you get to the hospital, and not have your foot separate from the rest of you.

Does anyone else remember that scooter safety advert where there was a sneaker/trainer on the road with a shattered bone sticking out of it.

I got to see it for real myself a few years later. Disgusting.

And a somewhat-thicker layer of denim (and possibly cordura overpants), over a layer of comfortable socks (I tend toward thick woolen ones). I don't know the abrasion resistance of woolen socks (say, smartwool), but they are pretty thick and impact resistant, definitely more absorbent than (say) doc martens, but probably less so than the uppers in my hiking boots. I appreciate good ankle support- I've got a torn ligament in my foot that leads to a lot of ankle twisting when I'm not paying attention. That said, I'm not convinced of your first point - I can see a lot of crashes (high sides) where the upper body and forearms would hit the ground first, and a lot (low sides) where the hips and shoulders would roll onto the ground. I'm honestly having trouble seeing the body mechanics where someone would impact heavily on their ankles in a crash.

On the other hand, in a low-speed loss of control where you drop the bike, you're likely to try and land on your feet, which could EASILY lead to breaking your ankles - standing up at 15 MPH is a really bad idea. This kind of crash injury could be mitigated by good, sturdy boots, but then the goal isn't over-the-ankle skin protection as much as it is thick bracing and ankle support (and there are lots of boots that don't have very good ankle support in stress situations, but still meet the "leather, over the ankle" guideline).

What I'm pushing on really, is: what is the type of injury these boots are supposed to protect from, what are the situations in which those injuries occur, what is the likelihood of those situations occurring, and what safety features are needed to mitigate injury risk in those situations? If I can get a handle on that, I can (a) evaluate boots and (b) figure out if there are other, non-boot alternatives.

Yeah, this is a pretty different set of footwear affordances than simply preventing abrasion injury in the event of a crash. Something to worry about, especially if you're already ripping ligaments and breaking bones (which boots really can't protect from all that well, honestly) and all that's left is the skin holding things together.

No abrasion resistance means that skin is very unlikely to keep anything together.

Skin abrades very fast in 1 second. Demin abraides in 1 to 2 seconds. Cotton in less than a second.

First, congratulations on passing the course. Now, my 2 cents:
Use your mirrors for quick glances, but get in the habit of turning your head both ways to check your blind spots.

I also don't ride center of lane for reasons posted above. However, get used to riding in all lane positions. If a car comes up on your left, move to the outside right. If you have a car on both sides, move to the center, and either slow down or speed up. It's all about maintaining the space cushion around you.

Dude if you don't want to wear over the ankle boots then don't. People are trying to tell you why you should (I don't all the time, but I know I should) and you want specific data in relation to number of crashes, types of crashes, etc, etc etc, which you aren't going to find on a discussion board, or maybe anywhere.

I crashed my Ducati over the winter. It slid on wet slushy pavement that was covered in coolant from an earlier crash. The bike went down on its left side, and I broke my left wrist, but my right knee.

No idea how that happened.

And as I said i watched a girl dump her LX a couple weeks ago and her foot somehow ended up beneath her scooter and her ankles missing a lot of skin.

Trying to project what should happen in a crash is a waste of time.

Maybe go on a MotoGP forum and ask why racers wear over the ankle protection instead of some thick socks and comfortable shoes.

Well when I'm riding through town at low speeds I always cover the front brake. I'm watching for some nimrod to open his door into traffic or pull out in front of me from a parking place or running the light or stop sign.

I'm usually running at 25 mph or less.

I am not sure about abrasion at the ankle level, unless they get pinched under a sliding bike I imagine your foot would not drag heavily on the pavement (unlike your back, shoulders or elbows/wrists while protecting yourself from a fall). However, what I was told during my MSF course a couple weeks ago was that if you ever have to put a foot down to stabilize yourself, you are far less likely to suffer an injury and/or fall if you wear high boots with good traction (that's why thick rubber soles are also recommended over leather). True enough I almost laid down the bike during a training exercise, but was able to hold it up while planting my foot.

I'm firmly in the "cover the brakes during urban riding" camp. I always cover both brakes with two fingers when I'm riding in an area with a significant number of intersections or other threats.

While I understand the argument that one may forget to roll off the throttle before grabbing brake, I think that is mainly a concern with new riders. As a rule, experienced riders reflexively release the throttle before applying brakes. I think my reaction time is significantly faster when covering, and I have plenty of strength in two fingers to apply all the braking force that is necessary to stop as quickly as possible.

I've found a lot of the discussion about gear on this forum - helmet style, agatt debates and so on, to be pretty well-loaded with references to data. The one thing I haven't seen discussed at all is the boot issue (except for stuff in this thread).

I'd also say that moto GP riders have a different set of needs than other riders. I'm not trying to convert anybody (or even myself, I still wore my boots this morning), I'm trying to get to the bottom of a puzzle.

Brake-wise, maybe I'll compromise by covering the rear brake while I'm riding in crowded streets - the beginning and end of my commute is chock full of clueless pedestrians and drivers. Man, when I rode my bicycle in california (oakland and berkeley), I narrowly avoided getting doored more times than I could count. People just don't look around themselves all that often.

But I can definitely see where I could end up in worse trouble than otherwise if I panic-braked and locked my front wheel at 60+ MPH. Honestly, there aren't a lot of situations I could even foresee where that's the right move: 60-0 in a straight line instead of swerving around something. Then again, my commute is on a straight-line secondary highway where I can see for quite a distance, and I've been practicing the look-ahead techniques from the MSF course.

From
"LOWER EXTREMITY INJURIES IN MOTORCYCLE CRASHES"

Harvey

Perfect, thanks Harvey. That's a really interesting website, I'm glad you pointed it out to me. Looks like they didn't really report abrasion issues, but 10% of the lower-extremity, serious (AIS 2+) injuries were ankle-related (they all involved breaking bones in the ankle). The general prevalence of lower-extremity injuries, though, seems to warrant more serious attention to quality riding pants in addition to worrying about ankle protection.

I suppose while head injuries might be less common, they're more dangerous (thus the helmet). I wonder if there's much to be done to protect against bone breakage in these kinds of accidents. Probably not a lot (unless you go for the michelin man airbag suits you read about in the news every so often), the riding clothes are mostly to keep stuff in the bag so you can mend your bones with a full set of skin.

not to be too blunt but i think is one of those situations where simply taking to heart the advice you've been given in this thread would probably be more productive than conducting a risk assessment exercise.

my boyfriend had a low speed drop a few months ago and trapped his ankle between the scooter and the ground. he was wearing sturdy leather boots, and is very very glad he was - there is a big scuff in the leather right over the ankle area. that would have been his skin had he not taken 3 seconds to put on some proper footwear.

if you need more convincing, there is a picture somewhere on the forum of a bloke whose foot got trapped between the scooter and the asphalt during a fairly non-dramatic lowside. if i recall correctly, he was almost completely unscathed - except for losing all of the skin and a good deal of the meat off his ankle, having to have extensive surgeries, and living with the possibility of never regaining full mobility of the joint. seeing the picture of his ankle - even several months after the incident - was enough to convince me that i wanted my ankles covered. end of. no risk assessments, no pondering of probabilities, no reflecting on the virtues of multi-function footwear.

edit: i found some links...

Boots ... check out the post by Tikka about halfway down the page, with a picture of his x-ray.

Scootin' Bootin' Shoes? ... here's the ankle picture. near the bottom of page 1 of the thread.

you'll note that both riders offer the same advice - wear boots that cover your ankles.

I'm firmly of the opinion that people need to question everything. Received wisdom is useful stuff, but evaluating ideas is more important. I understand the big set of risks associated with riding in the first place, and did just that kind of assessment exercise when I chose to get a scooter instead of a car for my commute. I do that kind of assessment every day when I take the scooter instead of the public transit bus (or choose to take the bus instead of scooting, due to weather or some other factor). I suffer from hyper-rationality.

I also don't get super-convinced from individual pictures. I feel sorry that Corsa broke his wrist and knee in a fall, and always feel bad when I see people show injuries on the site and elsewhere. But that's really anecdotal evidence - just as anecdotal as someone else saying "I ride in my shorts and t-shirt, have been doing it for years, and I'm fine". To put it in context, you could suffer a traumatic brain injury by tripping over something and falling while just walking around, but people don't wear helmets to the grocery store because that's a sufficiently rare thing that it's not worth the tradeoff. I want to find out how frequent these kinds of injuries are (or I did want to find that out, Harvey's link has helped a LOT).

To put this thread into context: I still wore my boots this morning, and will keep on wearing them. It's a miniscule cost (my shoes are more comfortable and less expensive to replace) compared to the potential outcomes of an accident. I'm just curious about the whys and the wherefores of the received wisdom.

Exactly so - you'll smash loads of bones hitting a solid object (street furniture, tree, lamp-post) at 25mph. You just need to prevent leaving bits behind when you're carted off. The trick is to avoid being a human crayon.

There's not much more that can be said that already hasn't. You've received some really excellent advice here from people with years upon years (decades, I dare say Jim?) of riding experience. At the end of the day, it sounds like it all comes down to a risk-benefit analysis to you.

Are the risks associated with not wearing boots less significant than the benefits you'll receive from such? Or, are the benefits of wearing boots greater than the risks of wearing them?

I know which camp I'm in, but I suppose it still begs the question(s) - what do you hope to gain - other than knowledge of crash statistics - by not wearing boots, and what are the risks of wearing boots (to you)?

BTW - the abrasion resistance of your wool socks are slightly higher than that of silk socks, though not by much.

I have wondered about boots too.. but for me its whether or not my boots are GOOD enough. I don't ride without boots that cover my ankle but I normally wear hiking boots the have a suede leather heal cup and ankle protection as opposed to the full grain leather heel cups with reinforcement of the cup and ankle protection. If you look at the boots riders wear while riding dirt bike, they are rigid like ski boots with a little more flex. The BMW and other "riding" boots have ankle guards and attempt to protect the heel and foot from being crushed.

The statistics show that you are more likely to have an accident below 35 MPH (86%, IIRC, Hurt Report). Your feet are what are taking to most risk as they are the items used at every stop to stabilize you. The first risk I see is when you pull up to a stop, you don't know if their is oil, radiator fluid, oil. "rock marbles" or just plain ole junk there for your foot to rest on. Many times you pull up and your reach out your foot and find that you have managed to step on the slickest piece of asphalt. With a boot on, you have protected your ankle and increased your odds that your foot will not slide or roll. This happens at every stop, every day on every ride, rain or shine. No other part of your gear does gets relied upon every day, every ride.

If you do have an accident, you are very likely to have you foot under the edge of the scoot and have it drag along the side or under the muffler. Either way, I would rather burn, scrape, abrade or melt my boot as opposed to me. The boot may not prevent injury but it will decrease the severity of what ever happens, assuming the boot stays on your foot.

MY O MY.
What is it you want, somebody to say "Yer man wear your woolly socks, extra long trousers and nice boots and ride like you ride knowing you're covered in an accident," Because it's not going to happen on MV I can tell ya that for sure.
You understand the dangers of head injury so wear a crash helmet, but even then a (ONE STUDY,) tells you most head impacts are on the chin so you want a FF not a 3/4.!!!
Now you're begging somebody to give the stats on leg impacts!!! You got that and now you think you're going to tell us it is O.K. for you to wear your woolly socks because some stat told you your leg is more likely going to get crushed rather than scraped so you can wear any shoes you like...
Man if you want to laugh at people wearing all the gear by all means do, nobody cares about that, thats up to you but do me a favour and don't start spouting crap that BIKE BOOTS are over the top. Everybody on here makes their OWN judgement on what is the best gear to ride in. NONE of them are going to try and convince others to wear anything less than full protection and why because there is a reason that bike gear has been made with impact protection and abrasion resistance and thats because over the years the hospitals see almost everyone after their bike crash and that feeds back to the clothing manufacturers to make the clothes that stop you ending up in hospital costing governments a small fortune putting bikers back together.
Sorry mate but you just got to do your own thing and don't try to preach to smart people that you've found a stat to back up you SILLY argument.
Wear what you want to wear,
Good luck and ride safe.

If a picture paints a thousand words, this is way you should wear your boots all the time.

My friend here thought it was OK to just ride up to the corner store for a pack of smokes. He ended up burning more than cigs.

No pretty picture has ever been drawn with a human crayon. Nuff sed.

i don't think too much about how frequent these kinds of injuries are - the fact that they happen at all is enough to convince me to gear up.

obviously there are risks connected with the mere business of being alive, but we can't take steps to protect ourselves from all of them, nor should we be expected to. washing up is a very low risk activity, and although i'm willing to accept the argument that a plate might drop on my head from the drainer and kill me, i am not likely to take steps to prevent something like that from happening. if the government wanted to enforce the wearing of helmets for doing the washing-up, i'd demand a proper risk assessment study in order to be persuaded that helmets were needed. scootering is a much higher risk activity, so in this case i'm happy to go with anecdotal evidence, no matter how limited and unscientific.

Thanks to everyone who has shared their opinions, experience, and beliefs. I initiated the boot question because I don't like dogmatic thinking. "Do this because I say so and I'm more experienced than you" is problematic. That's why I'm so annoying with the "but why" questions. I'm not attacking your premise or your own riding habits. I'm just asking for more explanation.

But ... I don't particularly feel like making this Yet Another Gear Debate, which I am getting the sense it's turning into. I had wanted to talk about the affordances and risk levels of various footwear choices, which could include a discussion of (say) high top sneakers vs work boots vs hiking boots vs riding boots (ones with the extra buckle to keep them on the foot, how useful is that?) But I get the sense that it's not really heading that way.

I normally couldn't give a fuck about what people wear, but:

hi tops are shit because they are made of canvas and rubber. On connection with a road at 20 mph, they split and rub away. Don't wear them. There's at least one rider who had a toe removed when wearing converse hi tops and she had an accident.

hiking boots - unless they are made of leather it is the same story. Some riders here wear hiking boots here, they might as well wear sneakers for all the protection they provide.

leather boots over the ankle, tightly secured otherwise they fly off your feet. DM style at a minimum.

You don't have to wear mc boots, but they offer superior protection. That is why there is not much debate. Basically anything that isn't made of leather and hits the deck is rubbish. Me, I've had a pair of sneakers shredded at 10 mph.

well, your original post did load the question a bit - you asked specifically about boots, and whether you could get away without wearing something that went over the ankle. that last point is one that the majority of riders who habitually wear boots don't really feel inclined to debate.

the 'work-boots vs. hiking boots vs. etc. etc.' topic comes up frequently in footwear threads - where you will also find loads of suggestions for footwear options

I just purchased boots two weeks ago and have started wearing them when riding. I spent all summer riding in tennis shoes, sandals, even flip flops, justifying it by saying my commute was only 2.5 miles away. I'm much more concerned with safety now that I have a larger scoot, and because I don't want to have any wounds like the ones pictured!

Then this whole topic has been successful.

Cool, well then you've just had that debate so now don't forget to post a picture of your new Motorcycle boots. There are so many different styles to choose from I'm sure you'll find some that suit your needs...

Negative karma for good advice... Umm? Some times I just don't understand this big old world we live on... Still thats karma for you.

With respect to the comments about 'not covering the brake' my MSF instructor said this specifically applied to the front brake.
If you grab the front brake in a sudden maneuver you will increase your risk for a 'high side' fall as the rear wheel may still be under power since the throttle bar can also be rolled at the same time the brake is applied.

A 'high side' fall is when you go 'over' the scoot/motorcyle, as opposed to 'low side' or a laydown where you're 'under the scoot.
High side falls results in more serious injuries due to the increased velocity upon impact. Common high side injuries include pelvic, neck and back fractures. (Trauma nurse here).

My instructor said it was important to depower the rear wheel first then apply the front brake in a panic stop. So I always 'lead with my left' when braking and then squeeze the front to increase my stopping power. So while I may not cover my front, I do cover my rear. (hmmm, there's a pun in there somewhere)

You can possibly lock up the rear wheel by applying too much brake too quickly, but as your MSF course instructed you, I am sure you were told to simply release the brake and apply a small quantity of throttle to get you out of that situation.

I wear a cheap pair of genuine SWAT boots I got on sale at a sporting goods store that covers my ankle (for the many reasons listed above) ankle are delicate, and once broken, are difficult to put back to OEM condition, as it were.
The saying goes, dress for the crash, not the ride. I hope I never crash, but if I do, I hope I am prepared for it.

actually your post is listed as 'karma neutral', which means that it could have been given either a negative or positive rating at this point - the rating doesn't tip over into positive or negative until three votes (i.e. three positive or three negative) have been accumulated.

THat was my point exactly. Shit happens in a crash you can't prepare for, which is why you should always be prepared for the worst (I'm the worst offender, I'll ride a 1000cc Ducati in shorts and a tank top for a trip to the beer getting place but I will NOT recommend someone doe so, and you're looking for advice - so it seemed).

I was wearing riding pants. As I said, bike lowsided on the left, I broke left wrist, but right knee, through riding pants with knee protection.

Weird stuff happens in crashes.

O.K. Thanks for clearing that up Genie I wasn't sure how it worked. I do try not to post just to get good/bad karma, but I am getting into giving out the good karma when it feels right. I'd noticed my little half target disappeared but I guess that could be from an older post too. Thanks again.