Modern Vespa

So I get out into the cold this morning to head off to school(the last day of course) and its reading 33 degrees on the scooter. I wipe off the seat, get on, and go to start it. It won't turn over. The lights/meters/blinkers/killswitch/tilt lock ALL WORK. I double, double check the kill switch, flipping it back and forth. The red light indicator works fine, and all the other gauges are running perfect. But when I go to press the start button...nada.

My guess is it iced over...but what I need to know is the following:

-What EXACTLY might cause this? What's 'freezing' up?
-Since I have no way of garaging it, would a regular motorcycle cover make enough difference?
-What can I do to keep it running after spending the night in the cold? I've heard rumors of fuel mixtures, but that seems a bit extreme. I DON'T have access to an external plug in, but are there any gadgets that might solve the issue?

Hope I can figure a way around this...I really don't want to have to go out in the middle of the night and start the scooter every few hours or try and figure out a way to walk it into the apt at night...

P.S. the pic is with its cover on, but its gone many cold nights without incident unwrapped...don't know why this time it didn't start...

What shape and state of charge is your battery in?
It can have enough to run everything but the starter. If your miles reset to kilometers this would be another clue to the battery being low. Just barely enough last night would be impacted by lower temperature this morning.

Did you try both brake levers. One of those switches could be bad, especially if you haven't done the dielectric grease treatment.

There is a fuse in the starting circuit. (The hidden one?)

Can't imagine anything freezing that would hold it from turning over.

I'm assuming the immobiliser LED has gone out with the ignition turned on.

Do the brake lights work? If not then that's your answer - but if they do then it could be the starter button itself. Very easy to prise the cap off and clean inside - then add dielectric grease!

Are all fuses OK? If so then it's time to get the multimeter out and check the relays are getting the correct signals and feeds. The wiring diagram will be needed here - usual place under 'Gilera Fuoco'.

When I got home and it had warmed up to the 40-50s it started up. It was a millisecond or two hesitant...but then it fired right up and ran well.

I tried both brake levers...but I didn't check to see if the brake lights worked.

Hmmm...it seems I'm gonna be dielectric greasing everything over the winter and checking my fuses as well. I hope its just a bad battery...I just turned over 16K miles, and its the same one...could be time for a new battery.

They are sealed AGM batteries, and should last at least 4 years unless abused.

The brake light switches being intermittent is a very common problem, and as we've seen before on MV, it's possible for both have failed. Cheap to replace, and they can be opened and cleaned with care.

Where do you purchase dielectric grease? Would a hardware store have it?

mine did the same thing this morning. It was pretty much the first frost of the year here and my scoot wouldn't turn over. I checked and checked again that everything was on the up and up. It never would start and I had to get a ride to work. After a few hours when it had warmed up, my girlfriend tried to start it again and it fired right up...... other than what Luthor has already said, I did notice that the temperature readout was blinking. This morning when the scoot wouldn't start, it was blinking 0C. Later, when it started, the temp was still blinking, but now it was 3C.

Is the blinking trying to tell me something?

Temperature blinking unrelated. It blinks when the temperature gets near freezing to warn rider of possible icing conditions. Will blink at 37F.

Often just called 'silicone grease' - but be sure it makes clear on the description that it is a dielectric grease, there are different 'silicone greases' around, which is why I'm careful to use the 'dielectric' term.

Dow-Corning used to make one called MS4 - that is the sort of thing to find.

Vaseline (petroleum jelly) will do if nothing else is to hand, but is hugely temperature sensitive, so no use in very hot or very cold climes, and is to some extent water soluble.

Any auto parts store, look for Permatex Dielectric Tune-Up Grease Item# 22058.

Wayne B

If you have a Harbor Freight, they carry it.

I too would suspect the battery. If the battery has a cell going bad, it wouldn't take much cold to drop the cranking amps below the requirement to turn the starter.

You were saying in another thread that you were going to install another battery for other purposes anyway, so maybe this is the motivation you need

Thanks for the info on the blinking temp gauge. I couldn't find any explanation on that anywhere.

So, the general consensus is that luthor and I may be having a battery going bad? I hope I just got a bad one, because I just purchased my bike back in March. Is this typically how long the batteries last?

This morning, the temperature was a little warmer, showing 3C on the gauge and the scoot started up fine. Strange indeed.

Thanks everyone.

Hey sctsct,

Mine started up this morning fine as well, and like yours too, yesterday once it had warmed up, it started right up.

I checked the brake lights, they all work. My peripherals and gauges all work, and not trying to be a skeptic, but my battery seems fine. Heck, yesterday after starting it, I even charged a cell phone while the bike sat off for a few hours. Didn't seem to phase it.

I'm still not sure what's going on, but I'm sure about a few things:

It wouldn't start because of the cold.

It started once the temperature rose again.

I tried every trick in the book when it was cold(flipping kill switch, trying one, both and alternating brake levers, turning it on and off a few times, etc.). The gauges worked, the lights worked, the brake lights worked, the tilt lock, seat sensor, all worked.

Something is being adversely affected by the cold. My suspicion is that one of the switches, as Jim implied, is being affected by the cold. I suppose that if condensation or frost got into one of the contacts, then froze solid, it would affect the start switch. As soon as I can, I'm gonna get some dielectric grease and fumble my way through redoing them all. Several have done it, but of course, they always tell us after the fact and with no pictures at all. I'll try and get plenty up.

A while back, when we were getting soaked with rain and my turn signals started acting funny, I got some grease to do up a lot of my connectors to switches. I went to an auto parts store, asked them to point me at the dielectric grease, and he handed me just a couple of little squeeze packages. I used less than one of those packages. I thought about taking pics but was running out of daylight when I was doing this.

For my 400 handlebars and switches, I had to remove the handlebar cover; 2 screws per side from underneath, brake reservoir cover, and the silver cover in the middle. I think that was it. Carefully pry apart the two halves. Then take out the switches after undoing the wire connections. Grease them up, I used a tiny screwdriver to push the grease in and make sure the connectors were completely covered. Clean up any smears on the outside of the switches and put it all back together. Then I did the hidden fuse next to the battery.

I am sure that there are other connectors that need doing that I haven't done yet. Speed sensor on the front wheels maybe.

As far as the battery itself, check out the well written wiki What you need to know about batteries.
Cold does effect batteries, questionable batteries will always die on you on the coldest winter days. Quick fixes could be to warm up the battery in any variety of ways; take it off and put it inside for a bit, hit it with the hairdryer/electric blanket. I have one of those stainless steel Klean Kanteen's that I would fill with hot water/coffee and place that next to the battery to warm it up. Just some tips that might get you cranked up when you gotta go.
Hope it helps, and correct me if I am wrong on any of that.

Thx Glow Guy...my turn signals too act up during the rain sometimes. Since you added the grease, has that issue gone away or have any new ones come up?

I had to replace my turn signal switch. The new one still acts weird occasionally, but not due to rain just sometimes when I signal right hand turns. I think there might be some quality control issues with Piaggio switches. I also had one of my brake switches act up. The mechanic at the shop fixed that for me while I was getting some new front tires installed. But neither of these issues were due to corrosion of the connectors. Obviously the hidden fuse that leads to the starter is more of concern due to the higher amps going through it as the Great Curmudgeonly One has pointed out.

Greasing the connections is an easy job that almost everyone should be able to do. I imagine it is easier than trying to remove plastic panels, which I haven't done yet.
Maybe once I have started school (in Jan.) I will have time to take off the front end and add a decent horn.

I suggest a long extension cord and one of these

So you want pictures do you? Here are a couple I took when I put dielectric grease around connectors inside the handle bar covers. The grease is easily obtained at any auto parts stores. I only got a few small packets, and barely used one on the handle bar switches.

Thanks, Kevin!!

Thanks Kevin

Thanks Kevin

here I give you the solution to keep your baby warm and cuddly and thanks Kevin, I am so hurt by this

Oh BTW beeing at the beach this week is sooooo relaxing

Now I'm really hurt

OAD you are at the beach - I really truly dislike you right now. It is cold, windy, rainy, and I am in a building with Christmas crazed children all day. Kevin, thanks for the pics. If we get through the wedding next week I plan on pulling the bike into the garage and installing the HotGrips and greasing up all the connections. I'm hoping Shannon will help (he better), but I want to actually DO the work myself. Pics help when you are 38 years old and entering the world of mechanical repairs for the first time.

yup I'll take a pic for you and post tommorrow

Might do well to wipe the outsides; spray with degreaser; and when dry, reseat them a few times to help clear the contacts. Then apply grease and reconnect.

Nothing will be as good as factory-sealed, tho.

There should be some grease squidged around the wires and into the back of the connectors as well - that is where any corrosion will start on any wire that has a few volts on it for any length of time.

good point!

Yup - this is on my things to do if and when it gets too cold/rainy to ride. In my opinion the two sources of failure are the plugs and the actual switch contacts. I planned on using both grease and silicone tape where practical but was also wondering if anyone has a recommendation for a dielectric/displacement spray for the switch internals.

here are a few pics to warm you up

I came across my scoot giving me that same blinking problem, but the switch button refused to show me my mileage A trip meter ;( Now I have also left the house at temps of 29 degrees without the blinking temp problem. It went off at 37 the other day when it was foggy, and the day it was 29 it was clear and dry out. So we might have a moisture sensor too?

I'm looking forward to my TWO months on the beach in Thailand and here is a picture of my lifetime supply of dielectric grease from auto supply store:

When the temp gets below 32 1/2 of your battery power is gone. everything is stiff from the cold. When it warmed up, everything revived and loosened up. Is there anyway to hook up a battery tender, to keep peak charge on the battery. all the other suggestion will also help.

yes and alot of folks have them on the scoots.

Since you have no electric nearby, you could experiment with hand warmers on the battery. They last for several hours and may be just enough to keep the freeze off if you put them on before bedtime.

Or you could just unscrew the battery and take it inside. It only takes about 2-3 mins tops. I used to do this and hook it up to a trickle charger before taking it out in the morning. The only drawbacks are that you have to reset your clock/trip meters(if you want...i just left mine on Celsius, etc during the cold) and the ECU basically is reset each day(though I never noticed any problems).