Modern Vespa

I was not aware that ethanol has some negative effects that show up with small engines. It looks like they could easily apply to scooters.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748704825504574580291347674418.html

Here are some facts on running ethanol in modern vehicles:

Operation on up to 20% ethanol is generally considered safe for all post-1988 cars and trucks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85_in_standard_engines

Because ethanol in these percentages has been in our fuel for quite some time most manufactures have taken the steps to replace engine parts that will be affected by ethanol.

Many of our South American friends here on MV are running their scoots on 100% ethanol fuel.

In most cases it is a simple matter of re-jetting and setting the timing or re-mapping the fuel injection system in order to run E-85 here in the US.

I am looking into aftermarket FI systems that will allow me to run my scoot on E85.

Thanks

Joe

What about the separation issue?

ethanol kills rubber and gaskets.


crappy diluted gas,

When I link to the above WSJ article from Google News, it shows the whole document. When I use the link I posted, it requires a subscription. The URL in both cases is the same. Sneaky stuff!

The ethanol is known to do nasty things to some of the fuel lines. Owners of the Aprilia Scarabeos had a ton of problems with a clean fuel line that was part of the fuel pump. You had to do something like remove the gas, take the fuel pump out of the tank. replace the hose and the clamps and then put it back together. Riders were plagued with poor performance and being stranded on the side of the road as the pumps could not build enough pressure to run at speed.

Anyone who has let a bike sit for season or two knows all about it.

Read the above Wikipedia article:

Although water phase separation can be a significant problem in ethanol-blended gasoline fuels such as E10[4], contamination by small amounts of water does not lead to phase separation in E85 fuel. The fraction of water required to induce phase separation is higher than 20% (by weight).

Joe

Again fuel lines and rubber diaphragms have been replaced in most vehicles to ethanol resistant material.

Ethanol has been in our fuel for quite a few years in most states. Since the removal of benzene, an octane booster, guess what they use in it's place, ethanol.

Whether you realize it or not you have been running up to 20% of ethanol iin your vehicles for years.

If you burn gas in your vespa currently you are running up to 20% ethanol right now.

Joe

So the signs on the pumps that state "May contain up to 10% ethenol" are a lie?

I have never seen one that says 20%.

Hey joe are they selling E-20 in San Diago?
All I've seen is E-10, unless of course their lying to us?

From the same source;

The fraction of water that an ethanol-gasoline fuel can contain without phase separation increases with the percentage of ethanol.[38]. This shows, for example, that E30 can have up to about 2% water. If there is more than about 71% ethanol, the remainder can be any proportion of water or gasoline and phase separation will not occur. However, the fuel mileage declines with increased water content. The increased solubility of water with higher ethanol content permits E30 and hydrated ethanol to be put in the same tank since any combination of them always results in a single phase. Somewhat less water is tolerated at lower temperatures. v/v at 70 F and decFor E10 it is about 0.5% reases to about 0.23% v/v at -30 F.[39]

Not so rosy.

Unleaded will contain 10%.

Premium, being that benzene is no longer used can cause an increase up 20%, 10% indicated and up to another 10% as an octane booster. Depends on summer or winter mix by the gas companies.

I am just quoting the references I have read. I will find the reference of up to 20% and post it.

Joe

Thank fuck we don't have that shit here. We prefer to farm to eat, than drive. Ethanol "off the land" is obscene IMNSHO.

Algae farms are another matter - very good petroleum-ish products can be produced from them, and home-made diesel from waste cooking oil is quite popular.

Aldo,

California has not jumped on ethanol band wagon as much as other states.

Here in San Diego there are only two gas stations that sell E-85. I have not seen any marked as e-10.

Joe

Thanks Joe, will stay tuned cause I'm confused.

Yes,

That is why the gas companies switch to a winter mix, less ethanol in the winter than in the summer. Not as big a problem in California, but can be a problem in states that have more of a winter.

Joe

Nope! Minnesota allows for unoxygenated fuels to be sold for classics cars and small engines. Regardless of what the supporters spout, three of us find our GTS to run smoother and cooler on this fuel. I can store my gas equipment over winter with unoxygenated fuel and start right up in the spring with NO deposits in the carb. Not so with ethanol added fuels.

Ok,

I did some more digging. The test data I found indicated that you can run up to 20% ethanol with no adverse effects. This is based on a study from the state of Minnesota which has passed a law which will mandate E-20 gas (20 % ethanol by the year 2013.

Currently all states are at 10% ethanol. Sometimes technical articles omit that their data is based on test data and not what is currently being used by the public.

Tom you are correct. There are problems with ethanol in the winter. In Brazil they start and warm their vehicles on gas and then switch over to 100 % ethanol when warm.

I am not saying there are not problems. I am also a firm believer in not using food based products for ethanol, but to use waste products instead.

I stand corrected.

Joe

And has tens of thousands of acres of corn and multi millions in subsidized ethanol plants... I'm just sayin....there might be more to the story...

Here is the Google link to Fogie's article.

http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=Small-Engine+Makers+Voice

I think Google caches them, so that you don't have to have a subscription. It is sneaky

[politics] I think the way the US does ethanol is a government and big business conspiracy. They are the only ones who are going to make out good, with the really poor, in and outside the US, gettin' the shaft. I blame the previous administration, but I don't see any fixes in the current one either [/politics]

Don't worry about the politics in that post.

It's the science that should have the spotlight.

There is a case for some areas to grow crops for fuel - they can't grow edible stuff.

Better use of desert areas for other means of energy capture seems the right way forward to me.

Funny how they keep this push for ethanol, while also pushing for higher fuel economy... you know, what with the way alcohols in fuel reduce MPGs.........


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I have been using automobile gasoline in my airplanes for many, many years. Ever since California started blending ethanol in the fuel, I have been testing it for alcohol content and I have always found it to be at 5%.

at least south america uses sugar cane to make ethanol, the US uses corn, which produces bugger all ethanol and wastes a lot of energy in the proccess. Still, the corn subsidies have been in place for decades and must be protected at all costs.

Unless the EtOH content exceed 10%, US EPA does not require labeling the pump. 36 states do require blend of 10% and below to be labeled that alcohol has been blended into the fuel.

Al

Thanks ... why didn't I think of posting the Google link?

I have friends who fly Gen aviation aircraft. Since Ethanol was introduced to automotive fuel the FAA has pulled the STC's for automotive use in aircraft engines. Unless exceptions where made I doubt it can be legally used anymore.

It is not legal to run more than 10% ethanol in vehicles in the US in any state. Even 10% has caused major issues in older vehicles. It is KILLING the $750 multiport injector in my Chevy Astro. Getting tired of replacing it every few years. First one lasted close to 100,000 miles, the next two, less than 35,000 miles. Only change is ethanol in the fuel.

Wayne B

+1 wish we didn't have it here either.

Having just read the article, and having been a recreational boater all my adult years, as well as a long time member of the Boat Owners Assn of the US (Boat/US), what Boat/US is addressing has little or nothing to do with scooter engines and fuel systems. The Association publications have been carrying information about the concerns of marine fuel being blended with EtOH for several years.

First of all, keep in mind that the percentage of marine engines and fuel systems in use that predate 1988 is significantly higher than amongst automobiles. Thus, many "older" recreational boats use fuel lines and fuel system gaskets/o-rings that were not formulated to be resistant to EtOH. Also, many boats were built with fuel tanks of resins and other "plastic-like" materials to adapt to the unusually shaped spaces available for placing tanks. Many of these materials were selected prior to EtOH blending, and some are not resistant to EtOH, and a sludge is created as the EtOH eats at the material. Virtually every non-metal scooter fuel tank is post 1988, and built with EtOH safe materials.

Free water in marine fuel tanks has been a problem since the first fuel powered boat. The larger the tank, the more likely that there will be water condensation in a low fuel level tank. EtOH can complicate this problem, as it is hygroscopic (readily absorbs water from the atmosphere), and then, when the level of absorbed water and temperature are "right" the water separates out.

Another issue is two stroke premix fuel and EtOH, which should not be stored for any period of time. Since the EtOH is hygroscopic, once sufficient water has been absorbed, it can cause the 2T oil to separate out of suspension. Also, higher than15% EtOH content alone can cause a degree of oil separation. Thus, the boating community has cautioned boaters to avoid having "aging" stocks of pre-mix on hand for fueling their 2T outboard engines, a common practice in sailing schools and clubs with a number of small outboard engines fueled from a common supply kept on hand for ease of distribution.

Last, but by far not least, we in the boating community face far greater dangers from fuel leaks than the automotive community. Leaked fuel, even in very small quantities, results in highly explosive fumes in the bilges and enclosed engine compartments. Bomb-like explosive.

Note that the other principal group expressing concern is the Outdoor Power Equipment Institute, representing non-vehicular small engine equipment, that have not had to build to EtOH blend standards.

All in all, the engines in post 1988 scooters were designed with EtOH blended fuel in mind, as they have had to conform, at least in the US, to motor vehicle standards.

Al

hopefully this whole ethanol thing will fade away, its expensive, requires a lot of water and will never take the place of petrol products here in the states

So what about non-modern scooters? They make up a good percentage of the scooters out there. Not to mention modern 2T scooters. Have their lines/hoses been upgraded? Does the water content affect them? Are they having more hose problems? Can the vintage/2T scooters get new parts that are ethanol compatible?

The other can of worms is older cars.

I think its a matter of not having a choice whether or not ethanol will take the place of petrol. The EU is working towards a legislation similar to yours.
Biodiesel had the same problems regarding the wear and tear of rubber hoses (because of the ethanol content I guess) and the problem was sorted out fairly quickly.

"Neither increases in government subsidies to corn-based ethanol fuel nor hikes in the price of petroleum can overcome what Cornell University agricultural scientist, David Pimentel, calls a fundamental input-yield problem: It takes more energy to make ethanol from grain than the combustion of ethanol produces." -- David Pimental, Cornell University

http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm

So why are we even dealing with ethanol? Seems to make no sense monetarily or ecologically.

Someone is making money off of something. It may not add up in the end, but the people making money don't care about the end.

it always struck me as odd that you would take food and turn it in to fuel. you'd think you could find something else to turn in to fuel instead of your food.

There will never be a replacement for petroleum products, as long as we use internal combustion engines oil and its biproducts will rule the day, alternative technology will eventually (electric, hydrogen etc) result in new and perhaps revolutionary power plants but were just plain not there yet. I cant think of any scenario in the USA that has us all driving synthetic diesel or solely ethanol powered cars/scooters etc.

There is nothing magical about 2T versus 4T in this subject. "Modern 2T scooters", as in those manufactured after 1988, which is probably 95% of those on the road in the US, were made with EtOH compatible components, as required. No "upgrade" required, as the proper materials were used in the first place.

Water content normally does not effect a scooter, as the fuel tank is small and unless you let it sit for a few months, there will be little hygroscopic absorbtion.

As to "vintage" (pre-1988) scooters, fuel lines are easily replaced, as are the one or two minor items in the carburetor that might be effected. And I said "might" because being built before 1988 did not necessarily mean that EtOH degradable components were used. The 1988 date simply was the date where manufacturers were required to employ EtOH compatible materials. If you haven't rebuilt your vintage scoot's carburetor in the past 20 years, then it's overdue.

Yes, some older cars may ultimately require carburetor rebuilds for those few components that aren't EtOH compatible. However, not every pre- 1988 car was built with materials that weren't EtOH compatible. Some cars used acceptable materials long before there was any thought to EtOH blending. We're not talking exotic space age material.

For other than the marine and non-vehicle engine applications, it's a non-issue. The reason these two categories of applications are a concern is covered in my post above. The marine industry has been taking steps to address the EtOH issue in new boats for several years. And the reason that non-vehicle engine manufacturers are concerned is that they have had a free pass until it became clear that fuel without EtOH might disappear and they will have to deal with unhappy customers over the resulting problems of not doing anything sooner, when the rest of the engine world was doing something to handle it.

For land motor vehicles (which, if you look closely, includes scooters), this is a non-issue, no matter how much one might want a conspiracy theory or whipping boy.

Also, read the WSJ article being discussed. You will find that is is focused on other than land vehicle engines in the first place.

agreed. they could have everyone turn in their grass cuttings, and use switchgrass to add to that. they have been saying the ethanol refining places have been losing money since the price of gas went down. if they are making any profit, it is from a subsidy.