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A project in Beloit, Wisconsin has developed a hydrogen Vespa:
http://www.beloitdailynews.com/articles/2009/12/07/news/local_news/news705.txt

Press release from U of Wisconsin, Madison:
Quote:
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
12/8/09

CONTACT: Dan Lutz, 608-364-5700, lutzd@ci.beloit.wi.us; Marc Anderson, 608-262-2674, nanopor@facstaff.wisc.edu

UW-MADISON, BELOIT PARTNERSHIP PRODUCES WATER-RUN SCOOTER

MADISON - At first glance, a 50-cc Vespa scooter and a squad car may not appear to have much in common.

However, a class of University of Wisconsin-Madison freshman engineering students and officials from Beloit, Wis., are making progress toward technologies that eventually could run a variety of vehicles on nothing but water.

The class, with the help of UW-Madison civil and environmental engineering professor Marc Anderson and Beloit public works fleet manager Dan Lutz, has demonstrated a new hydrogen-assisted system that runs a Vespa on a hydrogen-gasoline fuel mix.

The students have been able to run the Vespa entirely on hydrogen both at idling and high-throttle speeds. Hydrogen also creates more complete engine combustion, meaning the scooter produces fewer emissions than factory Vespas.

Anderson's freshman engineering class last spring developed a wet-cell system that ran water through a container called an electrolyzer, which contained fuel cells to split water via electrolysis into oxygen and hydrogen. The fuel cells, powered by the scooter's alternator, funneled the hydrogen directly to the engine via a stainless steel tube.

This year, the class altered the system to be a dry-cell system. Unlike a wet-cell design, which submerges the electrical components in water, the dry-cell system keeps the electrical connections above water. This combined with Lutz's unique designs have created an efficient system that powers the scooter with hydrogen and oxygen, which are produced on demand in the fuel cell.

"It's exciting to be working with hydrogen-based technologies, and I really want to see this go further," says Lutz. "We've got a long way to go, but by running a Vespa entirely on hydrogen, we've proved it can be done."

The students plan to fine tune and improve the system, which Lutz hopes to implement in a variety of Beloit vehicles, including squad cars and city pick-up trucks.

Beloit public works has been testing hydrogen-based systems in city fleet vehicles since the spring of 2008. Lutz, who oversees the more than 300-vehicle fleet, has worked to meet the city's sustainability goals by testing hydrogen-on-demand systems to save fuel and help the environment.

Through various public works and UW-Madison contacts, Lutz was put in touch with Anderson, who leads a section of InterEngineering 160, Introduction to Engineering, that teaches students how to design, build and implement hydrogen-based systems in a Vespa.

During the fall 2009 semester, Lutz traveled to Madison every Wednesday evening to help teach the students about hydrogen-based technologies. The students tested an improved fuel cell design and coated the fuel cell plating with a proprietary surface coating developed by Anderson that improves performance and efficiency. A U.S. patent on this coating is pending through the Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation.

Future classes may be able to run the scooter entirely on water by using the battery to start the electrolyzer. Anderson also anticipates students will work on a system that works with tap water. The current system uses distilled water with some sodium hydroxide added.

The partnership between UW-Madison and Beloit public works has been mutually beneficial. Lutz has been able to leverage university resources, including laboratories and faculty expertise, to advance hydrogen technologies and eventually enable suppliers to build systems for him to implement in the Beloit fleet vehicles.

The engineering students have substantially benefited from Lutz's presence on campus. "Dan and his colleagues have been teaching the students many, many things about a variety of practical engineering skills," says Anderson.

The students have taken full advantage of their opportunity to learn from Anderson and Lutz. "We canceled class the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, and several students still came into the lab because they didn't want to miss a week," says Lutz.
###
[Edited for less hyperbolic subject line. ]
⚠️ Last edited by ericalm on UTC; edited 1 time
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Good on those folks in Madtown! The last time I was there for Easter, handsome women in bunny costumes were handing out multicolored condoms from Easter baskets! Totally of topic, but Madison is quite the place!
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Runs on water??
If a fella (or gal) were out in the boonies and ran out of water, could they pee in the tank??
I know it would be more difficult for the gals, but would it work??
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I am hoping this is real but it seems that I read about this in the past and the energy required to break water into hydrogen is greater than the return on burning it. Like I said I hope I am wrong and maybe there is a new way around it.

Hope they publish more details soon.
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I want a Vespa that runs on steam. The water can be heated by whatever burns.
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I would love to hear this is reality but I am not convinced yet.

On the other hand, I heard MV runs on "hot air". Razz emoticon
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Well, "fueled by water" is a bit of a stretch if you read the whole release. the current system is "hydrogen assisted," so though they've been able to run the engine on hydrogen only, the scooter only really works as a hybrid.
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stickyfrog wrote:
I am hoping this is real but it seems that I read about this in the past and the energy required to break water into hydrogen is greater than the return on burning it. Like I said I hope I am wrong and maybe there is a new way around it.

Hope they publish more details soon.
I had the same thought, Sticky. Where does the energy to break apart the water come from? Otherwise we would have Vespa Brand Perpetual Motion Machines.
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Here's a picture of a steam powered moped just to show my idea isn't totally far fetched.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Adding hydrogen to the existing gasoline/air combustion mix is a fairly well-established way to get cleaner combustion and (in theory) more power or conversely (in theory) the same power from less fuel.

I believe there are some commercial applications of this kind of setup already on the market, primarily in the trucking biz.
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jess wrote:
Adding hydrogen to the existing gasoline/air combustion mix is a fairly well-established way to get cleaner combustion and (in theory) more power or conversely (in theory) the same power from less fuel.

I believe there are some commercial applications of this kind of setup already on the market, primarily in the trucking biz.
There are some products available (through shady online sources of course) that claim to do this for car and other engines. Install yourself in 5 minutes! If anyone wants to locate and buy one, let me know how it works out for you.
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ericalm wrote:
There are some products available (through shady online sources of course) that claim to do this for car and other engines. Install yourself in 5 minutes! If anyone wants to locate and buy one, let me know how it works out for you.
Yeah, lots of shady sources is right. Still, I'm fairly certain this is already in use on diesel trucks. The only point I'm trying to make is that the "too good to be true" comments are correct inasmuch as running on water is unlikely to happen in my lifetime. Simply adding hydrogen (or even Brown's gas) to air/fuel, though, does have the stated effect.
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Whatever happened to the laws of physics, laws of thermodynamics, etc? Water doesn't just fall apart into H2 and O2, you have to pry them apart with energy.

If Benny's damned Canadian Club hadn't worked its sly magic I would remember more. Anyway, if its too good to be true it damn well isn't, except for the CC.
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Tor2ga wrote:
Whatever happened to the laws of physics, laws of thermodynamics, etc? Water doesn't just fall apart into H2 and O2, you have to pry them apart with energy.

If Benny's damned Canadian Club hadn't worked its sly magic I would remember more. Anyway, if its too good to be true it damn well isn't, except for the CC.
It's no problem, really... they just replaced the battery with a cold fusion reactor.
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Tor2ga wrote:
Whatever happened to the laws of physics, laws of thermodynamics, etc? Water doesn't just fall apart into H2 and O2, you have to pry them apart with energy.
Sure, but once you do that and then do whatever it is you're going to do to get the energy out of hydrogen, is there a net loss or gain?
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Net loss. Basic thermodynamics. God I hated studying that - and thank god for wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy
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jimc wrote:
Net loss. Basic thermodynamics. God I hated studying that - and thank god for wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy
I misspoke. There's always a net loss when burning or using fuel.

What I meant was: Can you get more energy from the hydrogen itself than it takes to electrolyze the water and separate it?
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ericalm wrote:
What I meant was: Can you get more energy from the hydrogen itself than it takes to electrolyze the water and separate it?
Not with current technology. While there have been a few improvements in the separation process recently, the amount of energy to split HH from O is still significantly higher than the energy that the HH can produce.
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jess wrote:
ericalm wrote:
What I meant was: Can you get more energy from the hydrogen itself than it takes to electrolyze the water and separate it?
Not with current technology. While there have been a few improvements in the separation process recently, the amount of energy to split HH from O is still significantly higher than the energy that the HH can produce.
What would make this work is being able to use cheaper energy to do the splitting - for example, electricity from the power grid or, even better, from solar, wind, tidal, etc.

Put the hydrogen in the scooter, breathe the oxygen, and off you go!

Cheap, renewable energy - an oxymoron so far.
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jimc wrote:
Net loss. Basic thermodynamics. God I hated studying that - and thank god for wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy
Naturally, I loved thermo!

I think the trick here is to electrolyze water to create a gas that contains both O2 and H2,
so it burns other fuels more completely and with the creation of more energy

And it looks like they've been having some success with that
(based on a brief internet search--please correct me if I'm wrong)
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mpfrank wrote:
jess wrote:
ericalm wrote:
What I meant was: Can you get more energy from the hydrogen itself than it takes to electrolyze the water and separate it?
Not with current technology. While there have been a few improvements in the separation process recently, the amount of energy to split HH from O is still significantly higher than the energy that the HH can produce.
What would make this work is being able to use cheaper energy to do the splitting - for example, electricity from the power grid or, even better, from solar, wind, tidal, etc.

Put the hydrogen in the scooter, breathe the oxygen, and off you go!

Cheap, renewable energy - an oxymoron so far.
I suppose at this point the benefit isn't using hydrogen to power the scooter but instead to reduce emissions. Then it sort of comes down to the amount of the reduction and how the electrolysis is powered. Does it have its own, separate rechargeable battery? Is the emissions reduction sufficient to offset whatever power source charges the battery?

Maybe the answers to all of it is, "No, not yet..." Even so, it's good to see this happening. Sometimes innovation comes from unexpected places and its encouraging to see something like this coming from a city official working with a bunch of university students. This project may not yield a water powered scooter, but it sounds like they'r coming up with new processes and ideas that could be developed or expanded on elsewhere.
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By running gaseous H2 through modified carbs or injection systems you can make an internal combustion engine run on either a H2/gasoline mix, or straight H2. But it still used the O2 in the air, which means it takes in about 6 times as much N2 through the process and produces the same old oxides of nitrogen produced in the gasoline engine. (No damnit, I know that the N2 doesn't burn, but the NOx is produced as a contaminant.) Maybe we could just use a magnet on the fuel line to energize the gasoline. Or a catalytic gasoline gizmo that increases the energy content by a million. Where is Billy May when you need him?
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Tor2ga wrote:
Where is Billy May when you need him?
He's dead, Jim.
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mpfrank wrote:
jess wrote:
ericalm wrote:
What I meant was: Can you get more energy from the hydrogen itself than it takes to electrolyze the water and separate it?
Not with current technology. While there have been a few improvements in the separation process recently, the amount of energy to split HH from O is still significantly higher than the energy that the HH can produce.
What would make this work is being able to use cheaper energy to do the splitting - for example, electricity from the power grid or, even better, from solar, wind, tidal, etc.

Put the hydrogen in the scooter, breathe the oxygen, and off you go! :D

Cheap, renewable energy - an oxymoron so far. :(
The second law of thermodynamics is a bitch! There's no getting around it.

When talking of hydrogen as a fuel it's best to think of it as a battery. You put electricity into water to create it, store it somehow, then burn it or run it through a fuelcell to get the energy back out. With losses, lots of them.

Direct solar to hydrogen looks promising but even then hydrogen is a horrible storage medium. Better would be a solar to oil process but that's way further out.
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jess wrote:
Tor2ga wrote:
Where is Billy May when you need him?
He's dead, Jim.
I knew that of course, irony you know.

I'm not Jim.

Oh yeah, I see the irony.

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