Modern Vespa

Any interest? Ideas? Questions? This is sort of a prep for myself...

why not buy the hybrid in the first place?

If you are determined to go with a 400cc hybrid then you should consider starting from the 125cc hybrid and do a motor swap.
I doubt that this is doable though.

+1 - and he's being generous - very "uninformed" idea. Not just no but hell no. You have any idea of drivetrain and propulsion systems?

400 LT is considered a car in most of Europe, MP3 125cc Hybrid is a motorcycle. The difference in insurance costs is huge.

Motor change is not appliable to 125cc Hybrid, the electric motor and drive train is in the same package.

Also, I don´t love the idea that when the batteries run out on the 125cc Hybrid, the 125cc engine has to carry the whole weight of the bike. 250kilos. Much.

I am considering to attach an electric motor to front wheel(s). How about that?

sounds good

It would be better to just go with an all electric motorcycle.

http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/eboxerkit.htm

Oh yes, I have considered that too.

Weight. Because of the mere number of batteries needed, the weight is going to be relatively high and the weight center point relatively high. Not nice to handle. That is why I came up with the MP3, a trike is much easier to balance.

Motor. Because of being a carrying piece of structure in a scooter, the motor is a bit difficult to rip off.

Range. Due to batteries limitations the range is not high. I am aiming to range over 300 km. Everyday, alltime use. Top speed 120km/h. And if I can do it with - say - 3 litres per 100km, I am satisfied. At the moment I am using a car for the same purpose, 9 l/100km. Not happy with it.

i think you better use the new 300cc that will be out in 2010 as a LT

it has a Qausar engine, and the Hybride use that one to, so you can use parts from the Hybride that would be more doable,
i don't if, easyparts.nl already can suply the parts, last time i looked it said, will be available soon

Thanks for the tip, but the 300cc version will not be on sale in Finland. And the one I´m going to modify needs to be available here in order to save registration costs. Also, the LT has the widest fork. Room to place motors.

why not in Finland??
Piaggio will stop selling the 250cc LT in Europe next march and it will be replaced by the 300LT and european law don't requere a new registration for piaggio, with only an engine change because its the same frame and its registrated as a Car/ Tricycle / Quad ( last one is for Belgium)

i've allready seen a kind of new brochure, with only the 300cc LT and 400LT in it both

And motorcycle versions 125cc RL, 125 Hybride, 250cc RL and a 400cc RL nothing yet on the 500cc RL

Just out of curiosity, why do you want a hybrid? I ask because it seems that a hybrid just has more things to break and I am not sure if there is a payoff that is worth it. I havn't heard one yet.

Sticky, I own a Highlander hybrid, my GF owns a Prius, and they are FAR more reliable in so many ways than a standard vehicle. For example, I have nearly 100,000 miles on the Highlander and am running with the original brake pads: the brakes on a hybrid only kick in during emergency stops and to kill the last few MPH of a stop, otherwise stopping is seamlessly and invisibly handled by the hybrid system. Also, while I obviously get more HP than the gas Highlander (same engine + electric + since I have the 4WD I also have a second electric motor, for a considerable bump in power), what isn't obvious is I have TREMENDOUSLY more torque at start because the gas motor doesn't hit top torque until near its maximum horsepower RPM while an electric motor provides full torque at all times. And although not applicable to a bike (yet), the biggest advantage to the Synergy system (Toyotas, Nissan (through licensing the patent), Lexus, and the newer Fords like the Fusion although Ford developed that independently) is that the electric motor constitutes the CVT: there is no clutch, torque converter, or transmission, so the total number of moving parts is actually less and there is no clutch, drivetrain or equivalent to wear out. Ever. I don't see the Synergy concept being applicable to a bike though, short of a major technology breakthrough.

One other point: putting the motor up front gives you an all-wheel drive motorcycle. Of course, you cannot make an MP3 all-wheel drive due to differential turning rates (you'd either have to have a split differential or, more likely when it eventually happens, a separate motor in each wheel controlled by a computer that calculates thrust based on turn angle), so not an immediate argument in favor, but someday that will happen. The Suzuki concept trike we've seen pix of does this.

I would purchase a hybrid bike in a heatbeat if it was done right. Unfortunately, the MP3 hybrid is turning out to be more of a marketing gimick than a serious entry.

Not to dowse water on JaRRmo's idea, but simply adding an electric motor to a gas vehicle does not make a hybrid. The central advantage of a hybrid is the computer system that continuously and intellegently determines where power is being generated and shifts energy pathways between the two systems. What he is contemplating is a bike that can run on either gas or electricity. You cannot power a vehicle with two different power sources simultaneously without those propulsion systems communicating with one another; otherwise, the stronger one simply winds up powering the weaker one and efficiency is lost, not gained. And since that would be installed after the purchase, I suspect there's no tax or licensing advantage to it, either.

EDIT: Maksor states below that owning a hybrid can qualify him for exemption from fuel and other taxes and fees. That's an excellent point, but: I'll bet there is an ECD (European Community Directive) that defines a "hybrid"; motor vehicle directives are outside my knowledge of E.U. regulations, but one might want to find and consult it beforehand.

Well in some European countries you don't have to pay any fee's roadtax, parkingtax, ownershiptax and all the other tax, that they can think of, if its a hybride



i paid BPM its a tax, just for buying the thing its EUR 1065.- on a mp3 400
over the whole price including the BPM you pay 19% vat
because its light the roadtax is 8 euro a month my car is 86 a month and the bpm was allmost 7000,- euro

parking permit for my streat 150, euro a year per vehicle

gasprices 1.45 euro a liter 75% is tax

so in the netherland if its a hybride no BPM and no roadtax only the gasprice

Well, Finland is quite a small country and as a market thus small. I know that Hybrid and 400LT will come to sale by talking to the supplier. And anyways, the 400cc version sounds best to the project. Keep in mind that I´m going to replace a car with the thing.

Excellent! Not in Finland though

Yes, there are more things to break. But yes, there is a payoff. Carbon footprint.

Hmmm, one of my coworkers bought a prius and had some mechanical problems (not sure exactly what they were) but his biggest complaint was he said sometimes felt like a speed bump on his commute to work. Anyway, I guess there may be some good things that hybrids bring. I am not sold on the hybrid bike idea especially the mp3. The one I saw pics of had almost no storage since batteries fill up the pet carrier. Must add a lot of weight too.

Maybe someday the technology will be at a place where a hybrid would make more sense to me but for now I will stick with the good old infernal combustion engine. At least for bikes.

if you use a 400, it has a Masterblock, so you have to develope all your own parts.

maybe you can look at a Honda hybride because Honda is the developer of the masterblock and Peugoet uses the masterblock to, but Piaggio and peugeot both use the Quasarblock / engines for there hybride's

Peugeot used the 125 with a Turbo and the 300cc with a turbo

Piaggio only the 125 with out a turbo

Indeed, this is one of my thoughts. Piaggio has already done the thing with the Hybrid, why not use that knowledge? The only thing that sucks with the Hybrid is the electric motor stashed into the same casing as the rest of the engine.

>Hmmm, one of my coworkers bought a prius and had some mechanical problems (not sure exactly what they were) but his biggest complaint was he said sometimes felt like a speed bump on his commute to work.

Well, I don't drive the Prius It was designed for tree-hugging, not for actual performance improvement. The new generation of vehicles, which the Highlander and the Lexus 400h kicked off, are intended to use the hybrid concept to improve performance considerably at a more modest improvement in saving the planet. Also, the biggest mechanical issue with the Prius has been the electric steering - a problem shared by Saturns, which are definitely not hybrids.

The potential for hybrid systems in bikes is astonishing - consider what the Vectrix would have been capable of if they had suceeded with their hybrid - and somebody will, building on the mistakes Vectrix made. All-wheel drive alone would be worth it, because that can be tied into computerized stability control. When it happens, it will probably somebody with deep pockets like Suzuki or Honda.

Indeed. My project is to have a cheap, very low-consuming but very capable in keeping up (or in front) of the traffic. Can´t afford a Lexus. Can afford an MP3. Don´t want the Hybrid. Need to do my own.

Please people, give me proper ideas and not just comparisons. LT 400 hybrid, electric motors in the front.

Basically the engine is irrelevant. No change to the engine is needed. The only thing to consider is whether the alternator is good enough.

[quote="rjeffb

One other point: putting the motor up front gives you an all-wheel drive motorcycle. Of course, you cannot make an MP3 all-wheel drive due to differential turning rates (you'd either have to have a split differential or, more likely when it eventually happens, a separate motor in each wheel controlled by a computer that calculates thrust based on turn angle), so not an immediate argument in favor, but someday that will happen. The Suzuki concept trike we've seen pix of does this.

[/quote]

Yes, you can make an all-wheel drive of an MP3. And yes, separate motors in each front wheel. Yes, it is a bit trickier with two motors, but hey - that is why the computer is there. What we need is a sensor to check the angle and programs to do the calculations. Doable.

how do you want to fit it??

i asumed you wanted it to fit like the mp3 hybride so thats why i came with the idee of the Qausar block then you have it a littlebit easer ordering parts and fit them

you can try it, like the new electric Solex with a roll on the tire

maybe that will work on the front 3 wheel instead of a 4×4

it will worj with 2 electric engines light ones but the orginal mp3 hybride use its electric power only at low speads 20mph 30km/h above it runs on the 125cc just like the hybride cars

[quote="rjeffb"]

I would purchase a hybrid bike in a heatbeat if it was done right. Unfortunately, the MP3 hybrid is turning out to be more of a marketing gimick than a serious entry.

quote]
Yep. So let´s make one.

If you want to use the on board alt for charging the batteries, you can hang that idea up now. You have about 15 amps to work with.

Wayne B

[quote="Maksor"]how do you want to fit it??

i asumed you wanted it to fit like the mp3 hybride so thats why i came with the idee of the Qausar block then you have it a littlebit easer ordering parts and fit them

/quote]
Well, sorry mate, but you missed the point. Let´s be satisfied with the engine so far. 400 LT it is. Without any changes to the engine.

do you know the solex mopeds 2 stroke driven by a roll at the front wheel ?

there is no room below the Buddyseat you need that space for batteries

so your only optie will be placing at the front


a 400 engine is to wide for fitting a altenator on its side thats why Piaggio and Peugeot use the Quasar engines and then there is even a risk to scrape the eletric parts when cornering

The battery pack needs to be relatively full when starting the ride, that is the whole point. You can reload the batteries at home. You need the electric motors basically ONLY when accelerating. Breaking will charge the batteries, like KERS in F1 and during normal run the pack will get reloaded - just as the lead battery does. We are NOT speaking of an electric scooter but a hybrid one.

Exactly. At the front.

well i've heard that Solex produced a new electric one so look at those maybe you can use parts of them and how do you want to adjust your motormanagement you 400 has to kick in above a speed how do you want to do that ?????? write your own

and the figures piaggio give 1L = 60km they did that on battery power, only 40km on electric and 20 on the 125cc so after 40 km your 400 will only reach 21/22km on a liter a stock one will do 25 to 28km

>it will worj with 2 electric engines light ones but the orginal mp3 hybride use its electric power only at low speads 20mph 30km/h above it runs on the 125cc just like the hybride cars.

I am sorry to throw water on people's ideas, but that statement shows that you do not own a hybrid or fully understand how they work. No offense intended, just clarifying the science. ALL hybrid vehicles use their electric motors at ALL speeds; there is no running only on electric below a certain speed and only on gas above that speed. The speed you refer to in reference to a hybrid is the speed below which a hybrid vehicle is capable of running exclusively on electricity and above which the electric motor does not generate sufficient power to overcome friction and resistance without assistance. What you are referring to is a dual-mode vehicle, that runs on either gas or electricity, not a hybrid; and although I cannot state definitively, not having read the E.U. regulations, I suspect you will find that such a vehicle does not qualify for the various hybid incentives because they are not particularly efficient. The whole reason for a hybrid's efficiency is precisely because the two motors work as a team, and it was only due to the advent of high-speed computers that this became possible (look up modified Atkinson cycle engines on Wikipedia, computers not only arbitrate between the two power systems but they also operate the valves of the internal combustion engine so it does not create engine braking when the electric motor is operating). And you cannot simply connect a hybrid motor to any given engine e.g. replacing a 125 with a 400, because unlike a conventional Otto cycle engine with a symmetrical stroke profile, each Atkinson engine has a unique, assymetric compression-fire-valve open-exhaust cycle that is orchestrated by the computer. There is a reason why companies are spending billions in research on this and why people aren't just bolting motors to their cars and motorcycles in order to double their mileage - and qualify for government incentives.

I thought he was trying to accomplish what Peugeot showed off at a show last year.
http://www.likecool.com/Peugeot_HYmotion3_Compressor_Concept--Motorcycle--Car.html

There was a thread on it here: [MP3] Future rival from Peugeot at 2009 EICMA??highlight=peugeot

The engine is turbo charged giving more power and the electric motors are on front wheels for all wheel drive and more regenerative braking.

Edit. Here is a better link to an article on the 3 wheel hybred.

>Not to dowse water on JaRRmo's idea, but simply adding an electric motor to a gas vehicle does not make a hybrid. The central advantage of a hybrid is the computer system that continuously and intellegently determines where power is being generated and shifts energy pathways between the two systems. What he is contemplating is a bike that can run on either gas or electricity. You cannot power a vehicle with two different power sources simultaneously without those propulsion systems communicating with one another; otherwise, the stronger one simply winds up powering the weaker one and efficiency is lost, not gained.<

Actually this is an idea to do a complete, fullfunctioning hybrid. So yes, the computer system is very much needed and also the code for it. Also the funding is needed . But at least I have opened the discussion and you yourself said that if it was done right... ?

Precisely! I contacted Peugeot of the thing and the reply was: only concept car. What a waste. Though if I had an Italian or a French car in my hands, what do you think I would choose? -- Japanese.

Indeed. This is kind of assistance I need with the project. Thanks rjeffb

I started a new thread on the "future of the hybrid" discussion point since it is getting OT. "Hybrids and Spin."

http://www.thebikergene.com/electric-hybrids/miserly-hybrid-scooter-uses-only-17-litres-per-100km/#more-6