Modern Vespa

To keep this post short, and to minimize embarassment, I will skip background details.

I took my 400 on a sandy desert road. Got stuck, rear wheel buried to the axle. Unknown $$ to extract it, as I left them working on loading it in the dark.

Here is my disaster: Cracked case at mount. Rear wheel is now siezed, probably by the gearing. See pic.

Is this going to cost me a new engine? Gross $$ estimate to repair?

Bad luck, and with Christmas at hand as well. Keep the faith and hope for the best, there are a lot of expert mechanics on this forum. help is surely on it's way.

LL75

You have to buy a new crankcase

the crankcase is sold sepertly in europe 505,- euro's and then a complete engine rebuild, you could also order a 460cc cylinder and piston of the X9 evo ABS/Nexus 500 model 2005 or the Beverly 500 model 2005 for 155,- extra since you have to rebuild and replace the 400 also it will give 40BHP then, you or mechanic could fit it instead of the stock 400 with out any extra hour cost.

and if you can't buy one, keep in mind that a completly new 500cc engine will be 1400,- euro's cheaper then a new 400cc

new 400 56xx,- euro
new 500 42xx,- euro

http://www.easyparts.nl/showdrawing/4061/57056/-/0-968-1-m420-m2091-m2468-s4061-d57056/Crankcase.html

(cat 1 to 4 = differents in crackshaft you have to figure out what kind you have a there will be a mark on your crankshaft saying 1 to 4 somewhere

Have you a better pic of the actual damage?

I will have after I visit the tow shop day after Christmas to pick it up with my motorhome. I had them load it on my trailer so that there would not be the hassle of tranfer from their eqpt to my trailer.

I will post a pic of the actual external damage then.

Since I am on the road, I may just tow it home and stuff it in my garage and grab my pickem-up truck for my winter travels.

The tow folks logged three hours at $150/hr, but felt sorry for me and is charging only $300. I haven't seen it yet but they claim to have caused no body damage. Of course the first tow Co. could not get to me because he was not 4WD, but he felt obligated to charge me $140 anyways. A tradition in the US. They will always look, never tell you in advance that they may not be able to handle it. Total extraction was then $440. Add a 150 gallon tank of diesel round trip to get it in the garage at home at $$3+ per gallon= $450, this is an expensive $900 before I ever talk to a Piaggio shop.

There goes my Christmas present to myself for the next 5 years. But that is what I get taking a Maserati into "sand dunes".

Merry Holidays to all the fine, knowledgeable, and courteous folks on this fantastic forum!

if the first guy could not perform services then no pay period. did he state to you that no matter what just a call out would be x dollars whether he could help or not.

I agree, except he said $140 minimum when I called. Also, being a wimp, I don't argue with two burly men when I am standing in the middle of the desert.

I will post the pic of the broken mount when I pick it up tomorrow.

Garry,,

I feel your pain... My wife and I got stuck in a gravel driveway at a friend's house. Took a while to dig out with tools. I can only imagine in the middle of the desert..

Where are you going to take it to get fixed? Somewhere in Sierra Vista or in Tucson?

Tucsonrider, thanks for the reply.

I will take it to Tucson if they have a qualified Piaggio/Vespa dealer. Do you know the answer to that, can youget me the name of such a MP3 dealer or mechanic?

Sierra Vista is pretty much a Harley town.

Repairs will likely wait for a while.

Well that would depend - cracked cases can be welded - or repaired in other ways. I'm actually at a loss as to *how* it would have gotten cracked from simply sinking in sand. Perhaps sand got in and the belt action caused pressure? I'd be tempted to clean it out myself and take the case down to have someone repair it off bike. Bear in mind this isn't a warranty issue so you might as well do the sweat equity when possible. Good luck man!

Bubba, that might be a good suggestion. Saturday I pick it up, Sunday I haul it home. I will take a closer look then. Last time I looked at it I was not in a good mood and not too analytical.

20 years ago I would have considered your suggestion more. Today sitting on the floor to work it would wreck my back. I will have to check the shop manual on how to get it apart.

Thx for the suggestion. My Christmas gift this year turns out to be a Christmas debit.

while ata race this summer at Barber I witnessed a buell rider have a cracked side case on his race bike. He was able to clean and sand prep the area then use some JB weld to make the repair/seal. He went on the next day to race and finish. That was pretty amazing as those motors are really put thru the testing ringer under those loads and conditions. It might be something for you to look at as the cases you have are not even under pressure or have to have a seal for oil.

Be careful in attempting a repair of the transmission case. It has a bearing in it supporting the clutch shaft. If the case is welded on it can change the alignment of the bearing. It may run for a while but can cause other more expensive damage.

the crankcase is cast alluminium or cast iron and is difficult to weld

how old is the bike, Piaggio gives 2 years warranty over here

Here are the pics. I need tech experts' best guess of damage extent, and what is required to repair.

In addition to the crack, it looks like the black thingy above it is not straight.

I suspect that the wheel spoke grabbed a sizeable rock and carried it around, hammering the damage area.

perspective picture:



Closeup picture:

That looks like it's only affected the carrier for the parking brake. If so then some 'liquid steel' or equivalent will be a quite adequate repair IMHO. Certainly not worth replacing the whole crankcase just for that.

OK, that is the type of news I like to hear. The black thing above the crack appears to no longer be straight. And the angle of the spring below it appears to be strange. Is all this associated with the parking brake?

Perhaps the reason that the wheel is locked is due to a jammed parking brake!

Is it a pain in the arse to get to this stuff? Perhaps I should have a dealer deal with it?

Used to live in Tucson. Son and family still there. Anyway, Tucson has a great Piaggio dealer........per the many comments I have gotten.

RENAISSANCE MOTORCYCLES | 4411 E. Speedway Blvd. Tucson, AZ 85712 | (520) 747-2647

And if you are coming in from Sierra Vista, the dealer is on the "correct" side of town from you. Just east and south of Mt Lemon on Speedway. I stop in there every time I am in town visiting. And I have gotten many good comments about them. They are also the best Ducati dealer in the area.

Being an ex-aircraft mechanic I totally agree with Jim! Unless that area is actually supporting something, some liquid steel, and I would add cover it with some small squares of sheet metal (to keep nasty things out) should do the trick. Just like in a house you'll know if you tear down a load-baring wall. If you make the repair with liquid steel and such, and it still separates, then go the other route.

The black thing above is the main rear brake caliper - which may well be on the same carrier plate.

You'll need to remove the rear wheel to have a decent look at what's going on.

There is a lot of stuff going on in that area. Removal of rear wheel sounds like special and secure support stand, special tools and a lot of work for an old guy. I do not need a 450 lb unicycle lying on top of me!

How doable is this project in an ill-equipped home car garage?

I think you just answered your own question there!

I would get that welded!

Piece of piss. The removal of the rear wheel is a doddle.

Bike on centre stand.

Take off exhaust (be careful of the graphite collar, see Wiki).

Undo lower mounting bolt of the right rear shock.

Remove exhaust support bracket (often erroneously called the 'swingarm').

Remove wheel.

Incoming PM

Just haul it to a good welder, dismantle it at their shop and let them Heli-Arc it. Raised in Tucson and found the best company to help you would be www.arizonaspring.com 249 E. Grant Rd. (520)623-5826. If they can not I am sure they know who would. Their off time hobby is building competitive race cars.

Tying off this thread. Scoot is at dealer for repair. The crack was limited to the bolt lobe on the rear gear case. The case into the gears and the seal, etc were intact and undamaged. Remedy: Replace the case half.

I hauled it to the shop on the trailer, never removed it from the load that the tow company did. Since the rear wheel was jammed, the tech diagnosed that the wheel was jammed by the parking brake calipers. Working on the trailer since it would not roll, he finally got the caliper removed so that we could roll it into the shop. But I had to suggest the removal of two bolts to release the brake pads to give more clearance in order to get the pesky caliper out of there.

So the brake caliper bracket is also being replaced in principle, not because any damage was evident.

For about $600-$650, including 600 mile lube job, and a test drive, it should be running again.

It is a good guess that the damage was due not to the sand, but a rock that was caught by the wheel spokes and thrust around during spinning, hammering the case cover and the brake caliper.

I wanted to watch some of the dis-assembly, but the pesky service manager kept running me out of the shop, saying that he was charging for service only, not for training. That annoyed me enough that I will probably look for a different place for repairs in the future.

I learned more things.

1) Be careful in selection of tow facility.

2) Never ask an MP3 to impersonate a dirt bike. Like a faithful puppy dog, it will try, but fail.

3) So few MP3 are sold that there probably are very few repair shops that have a volume of repairs to become real experts. Experience helps. Lack thereof is costly.

QED

Thanks for letting us know. For the amount of work involved in replacing the case half that's not a bad price - me, I'd find another way of keeping the bike on the road.

It can be annoying to have someone looking over you shoulde when you are working. Many if not most shops will not let you in the service area at all.

My first service I paid a tip in advance to be allowed to watch. Ove time I have developed a good relationship with the mechanic and typically tip, buy pizza or something. I have learned a lot that saves me money over time and the good relationship gets my MP3 extra attention. I have seen others run out of the shop while I am there so it is all about building the relatonship. Rember in their view you are learning things so you can do them yourself and thus taking away future business.

If the Dealer means RENAISSANCE MOTORCYCLES you have made a good choice.. Steve the owner will take good care of you... BTW.. He can be like that sometimes.. It is nothing personal...

Thanks for bringing clarity to your issue...

Tucsonrider....

I do most of my own maintenance - but if the weather is bad or something would take me far too long to do myself I'll happily pay the going rate at my local dealers. We swap stories, swap info about Piaggio, swap hints and tips, and I do recommend them both very thoroughly both here and elsewhere. I buy all my parts through them (unless it's a 'special') and receive a discount that gives them a little profit, and me a good feeling by getting parts below most other published prices. This relationship is welcome, both to me, and I am given to believe, to the dealers too.

FWIW, CBS Whitton for the Fuoco, Walton Road Garage for the GP800, and they play well together too, both been in the business for over 40 years.

I have no reason to doubt that they will do a good job. I just did not expect an attitude from a 3-person operation. Perhaps it was because it would not roll off of the trailer when I arrived. I didn't even mention to them the bolt that rolled off the trailer, which I recovered without comment or their notice.

More likely he just thought I was a thief or did not like my looks. Certainly getting an MP3 stuck in sand would not attest to my intelligence or sanity!

You could have pointed them at this very thread - before you made certain comments!

Or maybe they read it anyway...

Garry,

What time frame did Steve give you before you get your MP3 back to ride again? I feel your pain.. NOT only in your wallet but also not being able to ride your scoot...

Brian,

Completion was stated as one week to order parts plus a couple of days to complete the repairs. That was faster than I expected. They did not appear to be particularly busy, though there were several bikes in various states of disrepair. After all, it was mid-work-day.

I am still concerned a bit about how the parking brake managed to jam the wheel, as it clearly was doing. That was the main thing I wanted to see. Concentration was on getting the caliper out of the way so that it would roll, but no diagnosis was offered as to why the jammed caliper in the first place. There was the implication that it is ok. Still a mystery.

It turned out the cracked mount lobe on the case was a no brainer. It eventually feel off!

I'd still have used 'liquid steel' or somesuch to repair (as long as it wasn't part of the main rear brake caliper support) - save $500 in the process...

+1 on that Fuzzy. As a small biz owner for around 40 years I used to get a little impatient with people who wanted our techs to show them how to do stuff. Occasionally we'd even have competitors come in, buy parts, and then ask the techs how to install them. Those guys I ran off in a heartbeat but the regular customers were given the option of paying full service rates for limited instructions.

In most cases they were just curious but those who were serious, usually a maintenance man for a large company, were steered towards the manufacturer for support. The problem with do-it-yourself people was they seldom had the necessary skills or tools to handle the things they were needing help with. Makes sense doesn't it?

One of the biggest problems for a small shop is the interloper disrupts not only the tech but those around him and the net result is nothing gets done for the entire shop until he goes away. It's understandable why shop owners try to keep people out of the service areas.

People like garryp who are truly serious about learning how to do their own repairs might want to consider attending community college courses related to that field and not be angry with those who are in business, it's their livelyhood. The added advantage of that is you'd come away with a rounder education compared to what you might pick up peering over someone's unwilling shoulder. My ten cents worth...

LL75

There are some misconceptions here. I never stated that my objective was to steal the dealers intellectual property, i.e. how to do the repair myself. Though a few suggested that it could be done, at this time in my life that certainly was not my goal.

I suppose that I am just too nosy, too much curiosity. I have learned a lesson: motorcycle shops are just like automobile dealers. A black box with a front door, a back door, and a slot for cash.

Once I had a pesky car that had an intermittent problem, and I had a few clues as to what led to the problem. I spent a couple of minutes explaining it to the service manager at a dealership. Without attitude, without a smile, and with utmost patience, he listened then wrote on the work order, "won't start."

Another time I took into the shop a car that had an idle and low speed miss. Having heard the same symptom before, I told them that the symptom was like an intake manifold gasket, thinking that might be helpful. "Not likely," retorted the service manager. When I picked it up the invoice said "replaced intake manifold gasket."

The customer never knows anything.

Was there any tell tail evidence on the spoke of the wheel. I would get the wheel checked out too.

That is a valid question. But due to circumstances I did not get a look at the wheel when it was off the scoot. So I rely solely on the experience and expertise of the mechanics. I must assume that a thorough inspection will be made.