Modern Vespa

Please help me. I'm trying to fix the steering notch by myself. I have reached the point when I need to remove the tapered bearing but here is the the problem.....it does not want to come off......How can I remove it?

Here is the picture of the beraring......as you can see there was plenty of grease on it. I have checked this one and it seems normal...anyway I want to change it since I have new one. I guess the other bearing on the left is the culprit for the notch.


here is the bearing

Cool that you have taken pictures, keep us updated on the progress.

For the lower (inner) race, you'll need a hammer and chisel. Keep one old race to help install the new ones.

In fact the lower inner race is rarely damaged - only in the most severe cases will the rollers show any signs of flats. The big problem is the outer race - and getting that out will be a bitch as well.

I would use a piece of hard wood instead of a chisel as it would be more forgiving if you slipped and it won't scare up the streeing tube.

Good thinking - and once they're up half an inch or so they slide off quite easily.

Make sure it's *hard* wood. I used to have a hickory axe handle I cut up for doing this. Used to be cheap at Ace Hardware...
Then again they also make special mallets from hard plastic, rubber, brass...

Thank you guys I did it with hammer and chisel.
Here is a picture of the outer race (on the right).....It looks normal to me (I guess the black lines are normal wear). On the left is the ring under the bearing that has suffered a lot from the removal process. I need to find something to replace it....any ideas???

The black lines *are* 'the notch'. A good set should not show these at all. They are the result of 'brinelling'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brinelling

If you took the inner race apart you'd probably find similar marks.

All caused by excess pre-load on the bearings. For steering bearings on a bike there should be almost zero pre-load - just enough to ensure there's no vertical or lateral play.

The 'muck protector' ring will be difficult to replace. They come with the Piaggio bearing kit, but aren't available separately AFAIK.

Thank you Jimc.
About the 'muck protector' ring....Am I right to say that the scooter will live a perfect life without them....as long as I make sure the bearings are correctly greased with no excess pre-load?

If you can get just flat discs made to the same inner and outer diameters(there may already be a huge washer available that size) then that will help, as otherwise there's nothing to stop bits of dust or grit getting into the grease and then in between the rollers from underneath. Even a home-made one from a baked-bean can would be far better than nothing.

Ok I'm done....I have changed the 2 tapered bearing and made sure that there is no preload on the bearings by backing off the lower ring by 110 degrees.
I thought I was done with the scooter and that I would enjoy riding it again.....but...
I have 2 problems now.........I can not bleed the brake system correctly....I have bled it many times but the brake is still soft......looks like I have air in the system and I can not get it out........How do you bleed the front brake system?
Second problem. I have filled the wheel lock reservoir and I try to find a good way to bleed the wheel lock line..........So far I have not been abble to bleed it correctly. When I start the scooter and try to lock the wheel the Horn goes off.......BIP...BIP....BIP....ect........I have to switch off the wheel lock system.....Can you tell me what is going on?

the tilt (wheel) lock alarm is caused by low hyd fluid. the bleeding the brakes. did you bleed the farthest line first. and just to be sure on your techique as you pumped and suqeezed the front brake lever you held it while backing off the bleed nipple just until the lever bottoms out then tighten the nipple . then refill fluid and repeat and repeat.


did you see any air bubbles come out when you first tried? what color was the fluid? and are you using the spec fluid dot 4 I believe?

I used to do it like this:
Get some aquarium tubing that will fit snugly over the bleeder on the calipers.
Get two pint jars and put about 1.5" of brake fluid in each.
Place the jars next to the calipers, cut a length of that tubing that will go from teh bleeders down to the jars and the ends of the tube well under the surface of the brake fluid. Attach the hoses and make sure they are under the liquid level.
You can do one side at a time but I reccomend an assistant.
Open the reservoir top and make sure you have plenty of fluid on hand.
repeat until no bubbles:
Open bleeders
Squeeze the lever
Close bleeders
release lever
top off reservoir if necessary
When you see no bubbles you're done

The reason for the jars is twofold - you keep air from creeping back in should you inadvertantly vary the brake handle while bleeding and it helps you see the air coming out. The transparent tubes really help.

Do you think doing the 2 at the same time is critical??

Bubba I have been bleeding them only one at a time with a different technique......I was squeezing the lever before opening the bleeder.

What is the best?

Ummmm - critical? No - but consider the two lines share a single reservoir - I'm always leery of trapped air. Some people like to "pump up" the brakes. In my experience not necessary - you're simply trying to move air out of the system - that translates into volume. You don't want to take too long between purges becuse the air bubbles will of course try to float up... (which is also why I try to do both - Murphy's Law says the one you do last will have the most air and will get air back before the T and screw up the one you just did...)
Squeezing the lever first is ok after you get the majority of the air out - biggest thing is your shut off technique - you don't want to suck any air back in... (which the plastic tubes will help with)

I'm still bleeding the front brake system and I still have a soft lever. Now I suspect something is wrong with the brake line.....
Here are picture of the front and rear master cylinder.....It looks like the front master cylinder is missing something.....Did I loose something or your front master cylinder is like mine?


front master cylinder

rear master cylinder

you need more fluid in them . they need at least 75% full when bleeding brakes.

They are full when I bleed them. I would like to know if the front master cylinder is normal......it looks like something has been removed.

If one is missing something it would be the rear one, but I think they are both fine.

Looks fine to me - it's just a reservoir with valves.
See if you can find a bike shop with a pressure bleeder - if you still have issues after that then something else is kaput.

I'm glad You used Brinell since Rockwell reminds me of that awefull 80's pop tune

Nothings missing, its just a difference in the manufacturer... One is brembo and one is hengtong.

Ok I gave up on bleeding the the front brake pipe and trying to fill the wheel lock system. I drove the scooter to the dealer. My dealer told me that it is difficult to refill and bleed the pipes because there is an elbow somewhere filled with air that is very difficult to bleed......It would explain why I could not bleed it.
The good news out of that is that my scooter now is stable at low speed.....changing the steering tapered bearing has fixed my problems...A big thank you to all the members who have posted on the "notch" subject. It allowed me to change them by myself and save a lot of money.
Now I'm going to loose some money for filling the brake and wheel lock system. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR I hate that.

Last edited by reticulum on Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:52:26 +0000; edited 1 time

What did you eventually use for 'muck protectors', or did you just leave them out? If stuffed full of grease you might get away with the latter...

I have used a bean can. This is kind of an ugly job but it should do the work...keep the grease up.

Good one. Far better than nothing.

With luck I might find somewhere that can stamp out some that will do the job. If it can be done for a good price for a decent quantity then we might all win.

As I mentioned before, saturday I left my scooter to the dealer and ask him to bleed the front brake system and refill the suspension lock system.
He told me that he will look at that today.
TODAY. My dealer just called me.....He was asking me if I could stop by to give them the key-fob for the alarm.......I was surprised since I do not have installed any alarm on the scooter......While I was on the phone I was abble to hear the horn of my scooter.......Then I realized what was happening.....I told him that the horn of the scooter will switch off every times they will try to lock the suspension since the scooter detects that there is not enough brake fluid in the system to lock the suspension.
I thought they were the specialists on the MP3..........not me. Now I'm wondering how much they are going to charge me for bleeding the brake system and the supension lock system. I thought it will be a 2 hours job MAX.
Should I pay for incompetent work hours?? what can I do???

The tilt lock is a separate system from the brakes. It also uses hydraulic fluid not brake fluid. That said the horn still probably relates to the tilt lock and a dealer should know that.

It's the same fluid - brake fluid *is* hydraulic fluid.

And so it is but a specialized one. After reading your reply I spent some time in owners manual and shop manual and can't find where either says what the specifications are to go in the tilt lock. The PDI list says to check the level. The disassembly says to catch the "brake fluid" confirming your statement. Where does it specify what to fill with or even give directions for checking?

I typically buy hydraulic fluid in 55 gallon drums or have it delivered in bulk truck. Never worry about it absorbing moisture from the air and don't throw away the portion of the drum not immediately used after opening.

I think it's an assumption by Piaggio that brake fluid will be used - there's no point in a scooter dealer getting in some other hydraulic fluid just for this one application. But others would of course do just fine, as there is no question of 'boiling' or other problems that brake systems have to contend with.

If it didn't upset some other materials used in the path, water would probably work as well as any other fluid - best to use some anti-freeze though!

But brake-fluid is assumed for the tilt-lock.

Thanks Jim. Us less experienced folks get lost in some of the assumptions.

Back to the OP's point though it is a separate system from the brakes,

Did anyone suggest they were connected? Except for the fact that after doing the steering bearings both need re-filling and bleeding...

More

Reread his post. He was talking brakes then brake fluid related to tilt lock. I incorrectly put those together. Guess I tried to help someone who was already ahead of me. Glad your there Jim.

You've quite rightly corrected me once or twice, so all's good. That's the beauty of peer review on a forum.

Ok, I got my scooter back. The dealer charged me 2 hours and half for the labor: To refill and bleed the front brake and suspension lock system.
The front level is still softer than before but this looks allright.

If I have time I will post the pictures on How to change the bearings but if you are in a hurry you can find them on this very cool french forum www.sgt3r.com

Is THIS the said muck protector?

That might be one on the central steering tube, but it isn't either of the upper or lower slightly different ones on the two main tubes.

Looking more on that site, they have another two:
ONE
TWO

They look like this: bearing followed by each side of the 'protector', for upper and lower bearings: