Modern Vespa

I read this on AdVrider.com, and it was a good reminder to me to read and follow the safety instructions on products found in many garages. Sometimes we see so many warning labels that they become white noise.

http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm

...cripes.

Thanks for scaring the crap out of me, Len. Heh. Last time I inhale brakleen.

I know what you mean. The first time I degreased an engine, I used some metal cleaner that scared the daylights out of me. After that, I switched to simple green alone, thanks to some good advice from my friend Matt Gordon.

Last edited by Quasi-moto on Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:25:17 +0000; edited 1 time

I did some contract work for FORD or Oakville and they shut down the assembly line when they found out that the sealer used in a welding process released Phosgene gas. The comment that caused the shut down was "the Nazis used phosgene gas to kill the Jews durning WW2"
Nasty stuff!

yeah I normally use brakleen when cleaning clutch drums. I always always use it outside and try not to breathe but I use messes of it as I clean then score then clean again... Stinks to high heaven.

I never weld at least

and never intentionally huff

Oh, and +1 on the simple green + toothbrush method of degreasing an engine.

Rather put elbow grease into it than save a few hours and kill a mass of brain cells.

Len, Thanks for the reminder...

BTW...make sure to wash your hands or better yet wear disposable gloves when using chemicals. It's so easy to come in contact with mouth, eyes, nose without knowing it until it's too late.

dammit. I prefer to not wear gloves, not wash my hands, then eat greasy hamburgers and fries immediately after while drinking from bodies of still water using my hands as cups.

Good post! I ALWAYS dig out the MSDS sheets on any new products I buy. I also practice due diligence in trying to find least toxic solutions. There's a reason OSHA requires ALL shops to have an MSDS station....If only we look!

Thanks Again!!

BTW most Material Safety Data Sheets can be easily found by googling the product name and MSDS!!


http://www.simplegreen.com/pdfs/09A_msds_simple_green_pad.pdf

http://www.crcind.com/wwwcrc/msds/AB11261-3.htm

Try its other name. Mustard Gas.

Wow, truly scary! I'm on the safety committee at work and I'll printing and laminating a copy of that to post on the MSDS station next week. It's true that people get so lackadaisical about safety after a few years of doing things fast and loose and getting away with it.

Thanks for posting it.

Scary.

One comment, and not that this guy would have had a different experience, but if you have a seizure: Go the ER immediately! I can't believe that guy waited a week before he sought medical attention.

eye opener..

Gaargghhh! Terrifying. Thanks for posting this, Len.

A sobering reminder of the dangers that lurk in products we come to take for granted just because they're part of our daily routines.

Stay safe out there--

--Deborah

Wow! I thought mixing bleach and ammonia was bad.

OMG That is totally a not what to do example. Why didn't he just try some vinegar and a steel wool brush? I also can't believe he didn't go to the hospital This is not a "fire made it good" situation.

Phosgene! That stuff was used for chemical warfare in ww1 !

I learned my lesson early in life about chemicals. I think i was about 10 and i got a chemistry set for xmas. Had a room upstairs that was my lab with my microscope and other stuff in there. One day i mixing unknowns and the last thing i remember was a huge explosion We had real chemicals back then I wasn't hurt, just some scratches from the window i blew out I never forget my mom calling my dad at work as i'm being hauled off to the doctor. She goes "your child is trying to blow up the house" I never saw my chemistry set again I suspect my dad came home and got rid of before my mom could yell at him for getting it for me My childhood and being in the medical field has made me a more careful adult Well i try I can't believe that the guy waited to get medical attention

Yipes! I recognized that name, too.

I've used Brakleen a couple of times as a stop-gap measure for a slipping clutch on my ET4 (something I intend to fix the next time I open the case). Luckily, I just used a quick blast and I was always outdoors.

Nor can I.

Although it might be possible, I don't actually believe the story. Any corroboration? Well, no other first-hand witness accounts of this 'incident' exist as far as I could find.

FUD I say.

I first read this article when it was published in American Iron Magazine last summer. American Iron Magazine is a reputable publication. Even so, being a bit of a chemistry nerd I did a little research and found that the chemical reaction that occurs when tetra-chloroethylene is exposed to high heat is very real and the outcome is as stated... phosgene gas. Phosgene is everybit as dangerous as this article would lead you to believe. Don't lose sight of the real danger because you are sceptical about the story. There have been times (not in most recent years) when I welded in my garage on a regular basis. And I still use Brakekleen on a regular basis. I'm happy that I read the article before finding out the danger of this combination by random chance.

I work in the semiconductor manufacturing industry and at times I get regular exposure to situations that could become dangerous real fast if you aren't aware of the risks. It's always good to be informed.

-Craig

EDIT: I have stopped using brakekleen around hot engine parts. Particularly a hot exhaust pipe or cylinder head. Hot parts clean easier but it's just not worth the risk.

EDIT #2: There are non-chloronated brakekleen products available. The non-chloronated do not clean quite as well, but they don't contain tetra-chloroethylene. I've noticed that in recent years it's difficult to even find anything but the non-chloronated type cleaners at the local car parts store. I still have a few old cans around but when they are gone I'll only keep the non-chloronated type in the garage.

Last edited by caschnd1 on Mon, 25 Jan 2010 04:01:22 +0000; edited 1 time

I'm not denying the real possibility - I'm calling the story itself into question. It is so reminiscent of those 'EMAIL ALL YOUR FRIENDS' scare stories. Constructed in almost exactly the same sort of language and 'method'.

I'll be happy to take that back if anyone can corroborate (with evidence) this 'story'.

It got 99%+ on my scepticism meter. So much that I can't even be bothered to put it through snopes. It would be far more credible if written by a named third-party independent witness - and if true would surely have been.

Agreed it is an apparently widespread story that pops up all over, a search of MSDS sheets proves it is possible... but not comfirmed that it happened. Good to know regardless of the spin!

http://hazard.com/msds/f2/blr/blrgy.html
ZEP MANUFACTURING COMPANY -- CHOKE AND CARBURETOR CLEANER, 0286 -- 6850-00N019267

================ Stability and Reactivity Data =================

Stability Indicator/Materials to Avoid:YES
OXIDIZING AGENTS.
Stability Condition to Avoid:HEAT, OPEN FLAMES, SPARKS.
Hazardous Decomposition Products:CO2, CO, HYDROGEN CHLORIDE, AND SMALL
AMOUNTS OF PHOSGENE & CHLORINE GAS.

Hey Jim,

The next time before I post something I find personally instructive and potentially of help to others, I will try to do a better job of vetting it before I post it. Maybe you'd like me to include an annotated bibliography?

Did someone give you a cold beer instead of warm bitters today?

http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q=phosgene&x=0&y=0&sp-a=00062d45-sp00000000&sp-advanced=1&sp-p=all&sp-w-control=1&sp-w=alike&sp-date-range=-1&sp-x=any&sp-c=100&sp-m=1&sp-s=0

Hi Oz,

Just for grins I just did a little googling myself, and found accounts written by friends of Steve Garn who verfiy the story. Took me about 30 seconds.

I'd post it, but JimC will have to do his own homework if he's interested, which is what he usually encourages others to do.

I found the easiest way to clean my bike and engine is to go down to my local dealer on a Friday afternoon, they offer a free wash if you pop in, only fumes to worry about are the fresh coffee ones - also gives me a chance to do some shopping (often bad for my pocket)

Ditto-- And he's still struggling with ongoing serious health issues from his encounter with the nerve gas phosgene. (If you're on MySpace, you can drop by and offer Steve birthday greetings-- His birthday seems to have been Jan. 20th or 21st-- ) 8)

Great Idea for good customer relations.

Just my thoughts. He's probably inhaled all kind of fumes in his career and never had a problem. I bet even he was thinking after he wrote the article "and the reason why i didn't go to the doctor sooner was...). Hindsight is a fickle word. The odds are against him on this one. That's his job and even he didn't pick up on what he had done. Would the DIY person have caught it? Maybe but his story should make everyone re-think what they use and how they use it.

Only use De-chlorinated brake cleaner. EVER !

Good to know, thanks Len.

nearly an eye shutter..........permanantly

being a welder for nearly 31 yrs i was warned when i started work about the dangers of ultraviolet light and heat on chemicals and paint braking them down into phosgene gas the dangers are very real we also used to clean our hand with neat trichloroethylene and spray it into a bucket and inhale it when your 16 your indestructable or so it seems

That is truly scary, Never liked using brake clean,
Or any chemical cleaner for that matter, Thanks for the heads up.

Ok, Ok, I take it back, and apologise for my perhaps over-sceptical response.

Only problem with De-chlorinated brake cleaner is it doesn't clean for shit
I'll just be very careful not to spray it on anything hot and not heat it and use the good stuff

Some people have doubted the credibility of the author's story. I am one who questions everything. That being said I believe the author is telling the truth, however I believe he is really downplaying the amount that he was actually exposed to.

Sounds like the after effects of a typical scooter rally to me....

We used to depend on the filter on our cigarette to purify whatever made it down into our lungs.