Sun, 24 Jan 2010 21:53:04 +0000

Veni, Vidi, Posti
SawStop
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
SawStop
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Sun, 24 Jan 2010 21:53:04 +0000 linkquote
I read this on AdVrider.com, and it was a good reminder to me to read and follow the safety instructions on products found in many garages. Sometimes we see so many warning labels that they become white noise.

http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm
Sun, 24 Jan 2010 21:57:37 +0000

Sir Frets-A-Lot
Vespa GT250ie/L, Honda Ruckus 50, Honda NT700V, Honda CB125
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Sir Frets-A-Lot
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Sun, 24 Jan 2010 21:57:37 +0000 linkquote
...cripes.

Thanks for scaring the crap out of me, Len. Heh. Last time I inhale brakleen.
Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:13:56 +0000

Veni, Vidi, Posti
SawStop
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Location: Puyallup, WA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
SawStop
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Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:13:56 +0000 linkquote
TheO.Z. wrote:
...cripes.

Thanks for scaring the crap out of me, Len. Heh. Last time I inhale brakleen.
I know what you mean. The first time I degreased an engine, I used some metal cleaner that scared the daylights out of me. After that, I switched to simple green alone, thanks to some good advice from my friend Matt Gordon.

Last edited by Quasi-moto on Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:25:17 +0000; edited 1 time
Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:16:02 +0000

Addicted
GTS 300 Super, 76 Sprint Veloce, Ape
Joined: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 03:33:39 +0000
Posts: 619
Location: Toronto Ontario
 
Addicted
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Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:16:02 +0000 linkquote
Vapours
I did some contract work for FORD or Oakville and they shut down the assembly line when they found out that the sealer used in a welding process released Phosgene gas. The comment that caused the shut down was "the Nazis used phosgene gas to kill the Jews durning WW2"
Nasty stuff!
Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:19:30 +0000

Sir Frets-A-Lot
Vespa GT250ie/L, Honda Ruckus 50, Honda NT700V, Honda CB125
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Sir Frets-A-Lot
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Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:19:30 +0000 linkquote
Len Smith wrote:
TheO.Z. wrote:
...cripes.

Thanks for scaring the crap out of me, Len. Heh. Last time I inhale brakleen.
I know what you mean. The first time I degreases an engine, I used some metal cleaner that scared the daylights out of me. After that, I switched to simple green alone, thanks to some good advice from my friend Matt Gordon.
yeah I normally use brakleen when cleaning clutch drums. I always always use it outside and try not to breathe but I use messes of it as I clean then score then clean again... Stinks to high heaven.

I never weld at least

and never intentionally huff
Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:21:02 +0000

Sir Frets-A-Lot
Vespa GT250ie/L, Honda Ruckus 50, Honda NT700V, Honda CB125
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Sir Frets-A-Lot
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Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:21:02 +0000 linkquote
Oh, and +1 on the simple green + toothbrush method of degreasing an engine.

Rather put elbow grease into it than save a few hours and kill a mass of brain cells.
Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:21:17 +0000

Ossessionato
Vespa 2005 GT200 & Honda Metro
Joined: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:48:16 +0000
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Location: Honolulu
 
Ossessionato
Vespa 2005 GT200 & Honda Metro
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Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:21:17 +0000 linkquote
Len, Thanks for the reminder...

BTW...make sure to wash your hands or better yet wear disposable gloves when using chemicals. It's so easy to come in contact with mouth, eyes, nose without knowing it until it's too late.
Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:23:08 +0000

Sir Frets-A-Lot
Vespa GT250ie/L, Honda Ruckus 50, Honda NT700V, Honda CB125
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Sir Frets-A-Lot
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Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:23:08 +0000 linkquote
TB wrote:
Len, Thanks for the reminder...

BTW...make sure to wash your hands or better yet wear disposable gloves when using chemicals. It's so easy to come in contact with mouth, eyes, nose without knowing it until it's too late.
dammit. I prefer to not wear gloves, not wash my hands, then eat greasy hamburgers and fries immediately after while drinking from bodies of still water using my hands as cups.
Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:26:11 +0000

Grievance Miner
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Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:26:11 +0000 linkquote
Good post! I ALWAYS dig out the MSDS sheets on any new products I buy. I also practice due diligence in trying to find least toxic solutions. There's a reason OSHA requires ALL shops to have an MSDS station....If only we look!

Thanks Again!!

BTW most Material Safety Data Sheets can be easily found by googling the product name and MSDS!!


http://www.simplegreen.com/pdfs/09A_msds_simple_green_pad.pdf

http://www.crcind.com/wwwcrc/msds/AB11261-3.htm
Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:51:19 +0000

Member
Piaggio
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Location: Fredericton NB
 
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Piaggio
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Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:51:19 +0000 linkquote
Try its other name. Mustard Gas.
Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:24:34 +0000

Molto Verboso
Fly 150, 2006 black
Joined: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 03:10:56 +0000
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Molto Verboso
Fly 150, 2006 black
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Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:24:34 +0000 linkquote
Wow, truly scary! I'm on the safety committee at work and I'll printing and laminating a copy of that to post on the MSDS station next week. It's true that people get so lackadaisical about safety after a few years of doing things fast and loose and getting away with it.

Thanks for posting it.
Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:33:12 +0000

Not So Moderator
VNB VSC o9c VMA vbc VSX
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Not So Moderator
VNB VSC o9c VMA vbc VSX
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Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:33:12 +0000 linkquote
Scary.

One comment, and not that this guy would have had a different experience, but if you have a seizure: Go the ER immediately! I can't believe that guy waited a week before he sought medical attention.
Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:38:02 +0000

Ossessionato
BV 400 (21) , BV 350 (16) SOLD :( , Sprint 150 2015(SOLD), Liberty S150 2018
Joined: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 01:38:31 +0000
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Ossessionato
BV 400 (21) , BV 350 (16) SOLD :( , Sprint 150 2015(SOLD), Liberty S150 2018
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Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:38:02 +0000 linkquote
eye opener..
Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:52:05 +0000

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2005 Cobalt Blue ET4
Joined: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 10:07:17 +0000
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Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:52:05 +0000 linkquote
Gaargghhh! Terrifying. Thanks for posting this, Len.

A sobering reminder of the dangers that lurk in products we come to take for granted just because they're part of our daily routines.

Stay safe out there--

--Deborah
Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:57:34 +0000

Ossessionato
A fracking cage sadly
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A fracking cage sadly
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Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:57:34 +0000 linkquote
Wow! I thought mixing bleach and ammonia was bad.
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 01:07:06 +0000

Ossessionato
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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 01:07:06 +0000 linkquote
OMG That is totally a not what to do example. Why didn't he just try some vinegar and a steel wool brush? I also can't believe he didn't go to the hospital This is not a "fire made it good" situation.
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 02:53:42 +0000

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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 02:53:42 +0000 linkquote
Phosgene! That stuff was used for chemical warfare in ww1 !

Mon, 25 Jan 2010 03:24:01 +0000

World Traveler
2007 LX150 Daring Plum Leonardo Da Vespa
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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 03:24:01 +0000 linkquote
I learned my lesson early in life about chemicals. I think i was about 10 and i got a chemistry set for xmas. Had a room upstairs that was my lab with my microscope and other stuff in there. One day i mixing unknowns and the last thing i remember was a huge explosion We had real chemicals back then I wasn't hurt, just some scratches from the window i blew out I never forget my mom calling my dad at work as i'm being hauled off to the doctor. She goes "your child is trying to blow up the house" I never saw my chemistry set again I suspect my dad came home and got rid of before my mom could yell at him for getting it for me My childhood and being in the medical field has made me a more careful adult Well i try I can't believe that the guy waited to get medical attention
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 03:27:14 +0000

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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 03:27:14 +0000 linkquote
Varaflame wrote:
Phosgene! That stuff was used for chemical warfare in ww1 !
Yipes! I recognized that name, too.

I've used Brakleen a couple of times as a stop-gap measure for a slipping clutch on my ET4 (something I intend to fix the next time I open the case). Luckily, I just used a quick blast and I was always outdoors.
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 03:29:04 +0000

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The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 03:29:04 +0000 linkquote
judy wrote:
I can't believe that the guy waited to get medical attention
Nor can I.

Although it might be possible, I don't actually believe the story. Any corroboration? Well, no other first-hand witness accounts of this 'incident' exist as far as I could find.

FUD I say.
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 03:48:09 +0000

Grumpy Biker
1980 Vespa P200e (sold), 2002 Vespa ET4 (sold), 1949 Harley-Davidson FL
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Grumpy Biker
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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 03:48:09 +0000 linkquote
jimc wrote:
judy wrote:
I can't believe that the guy waited to get medical attention
Nor can I.

Although it might be possible, I don't actually believe the story. Any corroboration? Well, no other first-hand witness accounts of this 'incident' exist as far as I could find.

FUD I say.
I first read this article when it was published in American Iron Magazine last summer. American Iron Magazine is a reputable publication. Even so, being a bit of a chemistry nerd I did a little research and found that the chemical reaction that occurs when tetra-chloroethylene is exposed to high heat is very real and the outcome is as stated... phosgene gas. Phosgene is everybit as dangerous as this article would lead you to believe. Don't lose sight of the real danger because you are sceptical about the story. There have been times (not in most recent years) when I welded in my garage on a regular basis. And I still use Brakekleen on a regular basis. I'm happy that I read the article before finding out the danger of this combination by random chance.

I work in the semiconductor manufacturing industry and at times I get regular exposure to situations that could become dangerous real fast if you aren't aware of the risks. It's always good to be informed.

-Craig

EDIT: I have stopped using brakekleen around hot engine parts. Particularly a hot exhaust pipe or cylinder head. Hot parts clean easier but it's just not worth the risk.

EDIT #2: There are non-chloronated brakekleen products available. The non-chloronated do not clean quite as well, but they don't contain tetra-chloroethylene. I've noticed that in recent years it's difficult to even find anything but the non-chloronated type cleaners at the local car parts store. I still have a few old cans around but when they are gone I'll only keep the non-chloronated type in the garage.

Last edited by caschnd1 on Mon, 25 Jan 2010 04:01:22 +0000; edited 1 time
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 03:59:59 +0000

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The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 03:59:59 +0000 linkquote
I'm not denying the real possibility - I'm calling the story itself into question. It is so reminiscent of those 'EMAIL ALL YOUR FRIENDS' scare stories. Constructed in almost exactly the same sort of language and 'method'.

I'll be happy to take that back if anyone can corroborate (with evidence) this 'story'.

It got 99%+ on my scepticism meter. So much that I can't even be bothered to put it through snopes. It would be far more credible if written by a named third-party independent witness - and if true would surely have been.
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 04:13:55 +0000

Grievance Miner
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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 04:13:55 +0000 linkquote
Agreed it is an apparently widespread story that pops up all over, a search of MSDS sheets proves it is possible... but not comfirmed that it happened. Good to know regardless of the spin!

http://hazard.com/msds/f2/blr/blrgy.html
ZEP MANUFACTURING COMPANY -- CHOKE AND CARBURETOR CLEANER, 0286 -- 6850-00N019267

================ Stability and Reactivity Data =================

Stability Indicator/Materials to Avoid:YES
OXIDIZING AGENTS.
Stability Condition to Avoid:HEAT, OPEN FLAMES, SPARKS.
Hazardous Decomposition Products:CO2, CO, HYDROGEN CHLORIDE, AND SMALL
AMOUNTS OF PHOSGENE & CHLORINE GAS.
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 04:45:38 +0000

Veni, Vidi, Posti
SawStop
Joined: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:28:00 +0000
Posts: 5391
Location: Puyallup, WA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
SawStop
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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 04:45:38 +0000 linkquote
Hey Jim,

The next time before I post something I find personally instructive and potentially of help to others, I will try to do a better job of vetting it before I post it. Maybe you'd like me to include an annotated bibliography?

Did someone give you a cold beer instead of warm bitters today?
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 04:50:33 +0000

Sir Frets-A-Lot
Vespa GT250ie/L, Honda Ruckus 50, Honda NT700V, Honda CB125
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Sir Frets-A-Lot
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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 04:50:33 +0000 linkquote
Len Smith wrote:
Hey Jim,

The next time before I post something I find personally instructive and potentially of help to others, I will try to do a better job of vetting it before I post it. Maybe you'd like me to include an annotated bibliography?

Did someone give you a cold beer instead of warm bitters today?
http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q=phosgene&x=0&y=0&sp-a=00062d45-sp00000000&sp-advanced=1&sp-p=all&sp-w-control=1&sp-w=alike&sp-date-range=-1&sp-x=any&sp-c=100&sp-m=1&sp-s=0

Mon, 25 Jan 2010 04:55:50 +0000

Grievance Miner
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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 04:55:50 +0000 linkquote
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 04:56:14 +0000

Veni, Vidi, Posti
SawStop
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Posts: 5391
Location: Puyallup, WA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
SawStop
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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 04:56:14 +0000 linkquote
Hi Oz,

Just for grins I just did a little googling myself, and found accounts written by friends of Steve Garn who verfiy the story. Took me about 30 seconds.

I'd post it, but JimC will have to do his own homework if he's interested, which is what he usually encourages others to do.
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:09:54 +0000

Hooked
Vespa GTS 250ie, 2008 - Midnight Blue, retired. Primavera 150, 2014 - Midnight Blue, traded. GTS300 Super, 2015 - Montebianco
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Hooked
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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:09:54 +0000 linkquote
I found the easiest way to clean my bike and engine is to go down to my local dealer on a Friday afternoon, they offer a free wash if you pop in, only fumes to worry about are the fresh coffee ones - also gives me a chance to do some shopping (often bad for my pocket)
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:28:54 +0000

Modératrice
2005 Cobalt Blue ET4
Joined: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 10:07:17 +0000
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Location: Portland, OR
 
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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:28:54 +0000 linkquote
Len Smith wrote:
Just for grins I just did a little googling myself, and found accounts written by friends of Steve Garn who verfiy the story. Took me about 30 seconds.
Ditto-- And he's still struggling with ongoing serious health issues from his encounter with the nerve gas phosgene. (If you're on MySpace, you can drop by and offer Steve birthday greetings-- His birthday seems to have been Jan. 20th or 21st-- ) 8)
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:39:41 +0000

WHOoligan
1985 PX200E Arcobaleno : 2010/14 GTS300 S: RIP GTS250 @ 40K
Joined: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 05:37:52 +0000
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WHOoligan
1985 PX200E Arcobaleno : 2010/14 GTS300 S: RIP GTS250 @ 40K
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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:39:41 +0000 linkquote
Andrewinsa wrote:
I found the easiest way to clean my bike and engine is to go down to my local dealer on a Friday afternoon, they offer a free wash if you pop in, only fumes to worry about are the fresh coffee ones - also gives me a chance to do some shopping (often bad for my pocket)
Great Idea for good customer relations.
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 08:00:20 +0000

World Traveler
2007 LX150 Daring Plum Leonardo Da Vespa
Joined: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 03:45:16 +0000
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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 08:00:20 +0000 linkquote
Just my thoughts. He's probably inhaled all kind of fumes in his career and never had a problem. I bet even he was thinking after he wrote the article "and the reason why i didn't go to the doctor sooner was...). Hindsight is a fickle word. The odds are against him on this one. That's his job and even he didn't pick up on what he had done. Would the DIY person have caught it? Maybe but his story should make everyone re-think what they use and how they use it.
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 08:41:53 +0000

Banned
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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 08:41:53 +0000 linkquote
Only use De-chlorinated brake cleaner. EVER !
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 09:13:40 +0000

WHOoligan
1985 PX200E Arcobaleno : 2010/14 GTS300 S: RIP GTS250 @ 40K
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WHOoligan
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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 09:13:40 +0000 linkquote
Good to know, thanks Len.
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:10:20 +0000

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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:10:20 +0000 linkquote
kdude wrote:
eye opener..
nearly an eye shutter..........permanantly
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:22:57 +0000

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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:22:57 +0000 linkquote
being a welder for nearly 31 yrs i was warned when i started work about the dangers of ultraviolet light and heat on chemicals and paint braking them down into phosgene gas the dangers are very real we also used to clean our hand with neat trichloroethylene and spray it into a bucket and inhale it when your 16 your indestructable or so it seems
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:39:30 +0000

Ossessionato
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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:39:30 +0000 linkquote
That is truly scary, Never liked using brake clean,
Or any chemical cleaner for that matter, Thanks for the heads up.
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:52:15 +0000

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:52:15 +0000 linkquote
jimc wrote:
I'm not denying the real possibility - I'm calling the story itself into question. It is so reminiscent of those 'EMAIL ALL YOUR FRIENDS' scare stories. Constructed in almost exactly the same sort of language and 'method'.

I'll be happy to take that back if anyone can corroborate (with evidence) this 'story'.
Ok, Ok, I take it back, and apologise for my perhaps over-sceptical response.
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:17:35 +0000

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Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:17:35 +0000 linkquote
VEZPA wrote:
Only use De-chlorinated brake cleaner. EVER !
Only problem with De-chlorinated brake cleaner is it doesn't clean for shit
I'll just be very careful not to spray it on anything hot and not heat it and use the good stuff
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:40:25 +0000

Banned
Vespa GTS 300 Super & Vespa P125X
Joined: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 18:46:18 +0000
Posts: 4134
Location: St. Petersburg Florida
 
Banned
Vespa GTS 300 Super & Vespa P125X
Joined: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 18:46:18 +0000
Posts: 4134
Location: St. Petersburg Florida
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:40:25 +0000 linkquote
Some people have doubted the credibility of the author's story. I am one who questions everything. That being said I believe the author is telling the truth, however I believe he is really downplaying the amount that he was actually exposed to.
Sun, 31 Jan 2010 06:16:08 +0000

Member
Lambretta SerII Tv175, Italjet Dragster 50
Joined: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 19:10:16 +0000
Posts: 26
Location: LA CA
 
Member
Lambretta SerII Tv175, Italjet Dragster 50
Joined: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 19:10:16 +0000
Posts: 26
Location: LA CA
Sun, 31 Jan 2010 06:16:08 +0000 linkquote
Sounds like the after effects of a typical scooter rally to me....

We used to depend on the filter on our cigarette to purify whatever made it down into our lungs.
   

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