Modern Vespa

OK, so this will NOT be about helmets, so I think this is an acceptable topic. Please advise if I'm wrong on this.

I'm living in Falls Church, VA, outside DC, and plan on bringing my scoot to Falls Church so I can scoot-commute. Problem: VA has great, lax scooter laws, but DC is the Scooter Nazi of the mid-atlantic. They require a motorcycle endorsement, registration, insurance, etc. etc.

BUT these are requirements of DC *residents*, which I'm not. Anyone scoot-commute to DC and have experience with any of this? They seem to have $300 fines (plus jailtime in some cases) for the violation of most of the above, and I can't think of anything worse than a night in jail for scooter-related offenses.

Basically, if DC honors VA law for VA residents, I think I'm good....


To Clarify My Question: does anyone know if DC motorcycle law is enforced against VA residents? Thanks

I'm not sure if I understand your observation about Virginia being "lax." Anything over 50cc requires a license, registration, insurance and motorcycle endorsement. I'm not sure if you would want to commute on a 50 cc scoot between Falls Church and D.C., but to each his own.

Righto, I've got a 49cc. Laws (and enforcement) regarding 49ccs are quite low in Virginia relative to many other states, and especially compared to DC.

You're right to be concerned about the safety. But I'm avoiding highways and will be on 35mph max roads. Doing this will save me 2 hours a day in commuting, so it's really not a choice unless it's unsafe or illegal, IMO.

50cc is fine for a journey of about 5 miles, in an urban area, which this seems to be?

motorcycle endorsement, registration, insurance, etc. etc. and maybe a 150 scooter for fun

I think maybe more like 9 miles? But again, these roads are pretty gentle, so I think it'll be ok.

@ 175mws: Well, I'll only be doing this for about another 8 weeks, so all the hassle doesn't seem worth it, and is in fact a deal-breaker IMO.

Still wondering if anyone here commutes into DC on a scooter and can offer some experience.


Thanks



Michael

If its only temp don't bother with it.

I think the idea is that you are required to comply with the laws of the state in which you are a resident, not the municipality to which you are traveling.

If you have documentation on you which proves you are a resident of VA and not DC, then you should only have to comply with VA laws with respect to your vehicle of choice.

It would be as if I lived in NJ, but was required to comply with NY state laws with respect to my car simply because I was commuting to NYC.

I think you are saying that VA doesn't require vehicle registration for a 50cc, and thus doesn't require a license plate? If that is the case, you may run into trouble as your scoot would appear to be unlicensed, and it may get towed as a result. It may be hedging your bets to carry a copy of the relevant section of the VA vehicle code with respect to licensing, but if it's possible to get some kind of plate (even if temp) on the scoot, it would save you some headaches.

Thanks, Bleu! That's kinda what I'm thinking, but I can't be sure..and since riding a "motorcycle" w/o an endorsement is a big deal, I'm nervous. I'll state briefly that I'm a student who bought this thing for $1000 in lieu of a second car, and largely b/c insurance wasn't necessary (in other words, I'm poor, so both $300 DC fines and insurance are not great options for me at the moment.

Don't do it, especially if you need to park on the street/ sidewalk. I was thinking about hitting Scootergate down in DC on my ET2. From what I've heard from people, you're PROBABLY fine driving IF you have a motorcycle endorsement. You might get pulled over, but having a non DC license SHOULD get you out of it. Your mileage may vary. According to DC law, non-residents need to follow the registration requirements of their home state in the District. Parking is a whole different story. They will impound an untagged scooter parked on the street/sidewalk. If you're there, you MAY be able to talk them out of impounding it because you're not a DC resident and the scoot is therefore complying with DC laws, then again maybe not. If you're not there, get ready for a trip to the impound, ($300 ticket plus truly ridiculous impound fees.) Supposedly, the DC impound lot will make it tough or impossible on you to get it out as well as expensive, because it's not "properly" registered, (though it actually is properly registered.) Also note, parking on the sidewalk is expressly illegal, a $100 ticket and increases the chances of getting impounded. Also, there have been stories about the impound lot not accepting people's paperwork and refusing to give the scooter back, that may or may not be credible. Anyways, this is just what I've been told about how driving a 50cc from MD/VA in works in real life.

Further info:
http://dmv.dc.gov/pdf/NontraditionalMotorVehiclechart.pdf
http://saintssc.com/laws/dc.html

You should be OK on your personal driver's license. But you will need a tag on the scoot. Call your DMV and see if they will sell you a tag/registration that does not entail getting insurance, etc. Some states will do that. They should be familiar with the problem. Also DC Vespa should be familiar with the requirements.

Very cool, thanks for the add'l replies.

@ P.R.G.: Ya, I've studied that chart (my vespa of course has <16inch wheels, otherwise I'd be in good shape!); that DC Saints page was helpful but a tad outdated. Your personal (through friends) knowledge is what is most compelling. Of course, there's a guy who parkes his bike on the sidewalk, across the street, every day, w/ no tags....i left a note taped to his seat asking for his story (is that bad etiquette? the note had a very nice tone!), but no response yet. So maybe here, as in all of life, it comes down to whether it's enforced. hmmmm. And ya, I was thinking about parking on the street, tho I heard I can grease the guy across the way for about $25/month to park in his lot.

Tor2ga: awesome, thanks for the advice! Can i ask--why focus on my needing a tag? Just b'c thats' the part the cops SEE when they drive by (which would make your point a very smart one)?

The cops see an "unlicensed" vehicle and they want to talk about it. But most importantly they will tow the untagged vehicle in a heartbeat if it is parked and unattended. Under 50cc in Md do not have tags either. Back when I had an ET2 I never left Annapolis so it wasn't an issue. Here in Florida you must register and tag all scooters, even under 50cc, but you don't need insurance, etc.

Call the DC dept of MV ans see what they say.

I'm still wondering why anyone would want to operate a scooter with no registration, no license (endorsement), and no insurance. Difficult to identify the scooter in case of theft, no requirement for rider training, and huge vulnerability to lawsuits in the event of an accident. Not a good deal IMHO.

No more of a law suit than if you hit someone with a bicycle.

Lol, welcome to Virginia. I don't think I'd hurt another vehicle pretty badly. If I run over a person (Lord forbid), they could sue, but I'm already 100k+ in debt, so my pockets are pretty shallow.

This particular scooter has been stolen 3 times (under the care of its previous owner) and thrice recovered. Meh.

Sorry, I think I'm coming off really catty! Long day + a few other crises I'm dealing with, sorry if I'm being a crank.

And @ Tor2ga: for sure, I will. Will let you all know what they say.

Had one scooter shop owner told me that the DC DMV had a policy (and maybe had even ANNOUNCED this policy..?) of not going after 50ccs.... Of course, this was a scooter shop owner, so he may stretch things to make his products sound more attractive....

You've hit on a larger problem in VA. All the 50cc and under scooters aren't "vehicles" that require a drivers' license, registration, etc. That leads to 13 year olds buzzing around suburban neighborhoods and having no idea how to ride a powered 2 wheel vehicle and exhibiting behavior that is selfish, boorish and downright unsafe to the driver, rider and anyone else unfortunate enough to be near them. Rest assured, they are not on LX 50's or ET 2's, instead they are on some anonymous Chinese junk, wearing helmets that don't fit and aren't strapped on their brain sacks. In VA, they're "mopeds" and these kids' parents have no effing clue how dangerous they can be in the hands of untrained, immature riders.

well if they're under 16 it's illegal in Virginia (though I'm not sure what the penalty is, and again enforcement is always part of this conversation). I don't see any of that in Charlottesville--only adults, never people younger than about 16. Of course maybe I just wasn't looking for it.

A 50cc Vespa weighs essentially the same as 150. Most scooter accidents happen at under 30 mph. No reason to think there is any less likelihood of damage or personal injury with a 50 than with a 150 scoot. Ah, that doesn't sound so good from any perspective. Glad you ride along way from here. With my luck, the first thing you would do is T-bone me. (of course, that is precisely why I have an uninsured motorist clause on my policy - it would just be my insurance company suing you that you would have to worry about)

Commuting in DC? It's called the Metro. I lived there for a year and get everywhere on the train and/or my bicycle. DC is actually a town that you don't need a scooter in. Getting to the Falls Church Metro could be an issue but after that you're golden.

Metro sucks with the way it is designed. What the hell were they thinking when they built with 1 track in each direction, no way to put express trains in the mix. Takes 45 minutes to get from Vienna to middle of downtown, when I can do it in 20 minutes on my scooter.

I see this is a big problem, when you don't have a state tag of any kind....for out off the state riding.....
Maybe, you can get a tag from a friendly state....
Michigan's Moped tag is three year long, requires no insurance, does require at least a Moped driver's licence, or a driver's licence, and no Motorcycle endorsement required....and no helmet required....
My son goes to VT, and there are dozens of 50cc scooters running around with no tags.......need no driver's licence....weird....and park all over the place, without any parking ticket enforcement, compared to a $150 parking ticket for cages! How can you give a parking ticket to a scooter that doesn't have a plate or tag?????
At least they require a helmet in Virginia....better than most states......

Hey guys,

So I've got reports from (almost) all the ppl I've talked to saying I should be ok, so I'm going to chance it. Will let you know how it turns out.

@ Dooglas: I don't plan on t-boning anyone And the fact that my OWN health insurance ain't so hot means that yes, I ride very carefully. A friend of mine in Charlottesville was just killed on his bicycle, so I try every day to keep my eyes and ears open.

@ Valimagdon: Yeah, so my current commute is 1.5 hours each way (bike to station, take metro, take bus). Google maps puts my highway-avoiding route @ 23 minutes. My host laughed at 23 minutes, but said that it could certainly be done in 30 to 40. I drive very early, so a 30-min commute is what I'm hoping for. That would save me 2 hours a day, which with a 10-hour-a-day job is a real game-changer.

StooterBoy: you're just the sort of person I wanted to hear from! So you scooter in from Vienna/West falls area? That's my plan too (though I only have a 50cc..)

greg: ya, the lack of tag IS my biggest concern. But I've looked around, and talked, and lots of ppl are doing it just fine. Just spoke with Virginia DMV, and they won't issue any kind of tag or ID without my basically registering it as a motorcycle, which then requires an MC endorsement, insurance...all the stuff I want to avoid.

Maybe I'll do what I saw one vespa owner do: attach the state code directly onto the back of the scooter for law enforcement to read!


Michael

Just do it. In most areas of DC, unless you are a different race and/or have just shot or robbed someone, the cops really could care less about traffic laws, rules, or regulations. DC parking enforcement may give you a ticket at times, but their tow trucks are unequipped to haul away scooters and generally will refuse to do so. Be careful for a motorcycle cop around 19th and L - he was known for being a jerk to VA scooters that were unregistered. Last I heard, he was on a desk job after suffering a motorcycle accident while on duty.

19th and L..I'll have to google maps that, as I'm unfamiliar with the city generally. I work way up wisconsin nw. Thanks for the tip

Nobody plans to be in an accident! No liability insurance, no savings, poor health coverage and riding in DC traffic - you are taking a hell of a risk IMO. For all that - I wish you well. Be careful out there.

Ya....I know, right? The risk seems so distant, but if i have an accident, it will become very real...

The upside of all this is that riding my moped to work will improve my prayer life, hahahah

Welcome to the "commonwealth" comrade.....post the question on wmasa.org and you will get the info you need.

fried okra

Hauled my scooter up to Falls Church, Virginia. First commute today: not as short as I'd have liked, but I felt safe and secure. The highest the speed limit got was 40 mph, but that was for less than a 1/2 mile. I'll typically be going in so early that traffic shouldn't even be an issue, really.

No trouble from the cops yet. I've U-locked my scoot to a street sign right next to my building, where I've seen others do the same. There's another scooter basically next to mine.


Fingers crossed!


Michael

You might check the laws of DC. If there is a registration exemption because VA doesn't require registration of < 50cc, it will be in the laws. From thinking about it for a while, it seems that if there were such an exemption, anyone riding an unregistered scooter in DC could claim it belongs to their friend who lives in VA. Can't see legislators missing this loophole.

The same goes for drivers licenses. It's driven by code. It shouldn't be too hard to find the appropriate section of law describing license requirements for out-of-state licensees.

Try using search engines to find the appropriate sections of DC code.

It's actually not near as simple as you might think. I'm almost done with law school, and just mentioned this problem to a co-worker of mine (a lawyer). He and I both agreed "it's the kind of thing you ask a lawyer who's specialized in this work"--because while you could just look for exemptions and exceptions in DC's (poorly written) code, DC is also constitutionally bound to give "full faith and credit" (US Const. Art. IV) to the laws of other states (though I guess you could argue that DC isn't a state, and thus not bound...which would be funny). But there are several complicating factors.

So it *might* be a simple problem, but I don't believe it is. Added to this is another, even more vague layer: enforcement, which for mopeds is said by many to be scant.

Today's commute took an hour, which was disappointing. Hoping to shave that down to 30-45 min by leaving earlier. Fingers still crossed

Michael

Saw a guy getting on his scoot in DC, accosted him for local knowledge. He said he'd been pulled over and hassled at least 3 times by the same cop--on M street right at the DC side of the Key bridge. Figures that kind of cop would hang out right where DC moped law takes effect.

Anyway, the guy said the cop would pull him over, and he would explain that he's a Virginia resident, and is following all Virginia law (no MC endorsement, ect needed). The cop said "you better make sure of that" and they guy said "I am sure." And the cop let him go...but has kept pulling him over and harrassing him.

I sweat bullets whenever I have to deal with LEOs. Is this what I have to look forward to?


Meh, still worth it. The ride home today was frickin beautiful, and an hour less than my metro commute, despite some rain and traffic


Michael

Panamaniac, I hope you are still riding in.
I also live in falls church and commute into DC and do so everyday all year around for the past four years. Out of the four years i'd say two solid years of riding a 50cc and have never been stopped.
I parked on the sidewalk outside my job for many years even with the 150cc and did the trick with removing the tag in order not to get ticketed. Never had any issues.
I take Wilson blvd. accross the Key bridge and then down M street. Takes me about 30 min to do and it's a little under 10 miles.

Very Cool, Im back in charlottesville now but I'm glade you've had so little trouble.

Sounds like the same thing between Ohio and Kentucky. Ohio requires the same as DC. A friend on mine rides a 50cc and has been ticketed several times. No tags required in Ky on a 50cc so he went to the flea market and had a plate made up that said Ky residence 50 cc, no tags required

They have left him alone for a few years now.

Glad you didn't have any trouble. We have the same laws as VA but the 50cc scooters/bicycles get a life time registration sticker. You do need a license but none of the other stuff and were a no helmet state. Kids well if here if they don't have a scooter they'll be on a dirt bike which is just as bad. I would of responded that if you can prove you don't live there the cops might hassle you but i don't think they would ticket you unless you parked somewhere you shouldn't. Now if they had a sign posted as you entered DC that said no 50cc unlicensed scooters allowed, you would be find but that's not the case. I lived in Richmond back in the 70's early 80's and back then radar detectors were illegal and you had to turn them off when you drove thru the state. Don't know if that's changed. I remember one guy got his confiscated and sued to get it back. It was off and he was just traveling thru and left it on the dash. Cop took it. Lawsuit went to court and the guy won.

Yes, Va. is still one of only a few states that Radar Detectors are illegal.

Yes, still illegal. If you come through Va I'd suggest putting it in the trunk or --better yet--selling it first!

I think I mentioned this above somewhere, but I ended up getting a letter from the Mayor of DC saying that they'd treat out-of-District scooterists according to their home state laws, which was a big relief for me. Tho I was never hassled, incidentally.

My favorite DC scooter story was when I took it from work on Wisconin over to the Capitol for a meeting in the Senate side. I actually pulled it up to a bike rack (probably half a mile closer than any non-paid cager parking I could have found) and asked a bicycle cop if this was ok while I went to the Capital. He looked at a minute, chained to a bike rack on the sidewalk, and said "Sure, no problem, just leave the back open." (I have a big ugly container I use as a trunk on my scoot.) I think his concern was that other cops would see it parked there and think there could be a bomb inside or something. So I opened it up and went to my meeting, and all was gravy.

God I love my Vespa.

Michael

@Panamaniac: I'm actually thinking of doing the exact same commute just the opposite way! I live in Tenleytown right off Wisconsin Ave and work in Falls Church right off Broad Street. I was thinking of riding my 50cc scoot for the everyday commute and wanted to get some feedback from your experience. How was it? Would you recommend it? I'd be taking Nebraska ave and Arizona ave down to the chain bridge and then taking those VA neighborhood roads all the way to VA (Glebe and North Williamsburg Blvd to be exact). I'd like to know what you think about this.

Thanks!

I know that route very well, and I used to ride a 50. It would be a piece of cake. A fun commute through nice neighborhoods.