Modern Vespa

In Proficient Motorcycling Hough says that when riding a foot forward cruiser, you should be pulling on the opposite grip to initiate the countersteer, rather than pushing on the turn side. This is what I've always done naturally on my Vespa, so far without any accidents.

At the same time, almost every time the subject has come up on here or in the MSF course, the standard advice is to push rather than pull. That's fine on a standard motorcycle, but it seems like the advice in the Hough book is more applicable giving the Vespa riding position. Is my form bad, or is the usual advice bad?

I think the pull rather than push technique has more to do with seating position/ergonomics than anything. Most cruiser riders are already stretched out. By pushing the rider is perhaps over extending or getting into a position where he/she is not stable on the bike.

On my GTS I push.


Dave

Giving it some deep thought (sitting here an mimicing my countersteer technique) I must say I push vs. pull...it seems more of an instinctive reaction vs. pulling which I would perhaps need to make a concious effort.

Now I'll mess myself up when I go out again and "conciously" try to determine what I'm doing!

Seriously there are times when I will give myself a little concious counter weight shift to assist in a long hair pin turn.

Though your feet are forward, the seating position is closer to a traditional motorcycle than a cruiser. Your arms aren't as extended and your torso is upright or slightly forward. I'd say push unless you're riding a Burgman, Morphous or some such beast.

I do both at the same time. It feels like the bike is twisting as it initiates the lean, then the turn. Totally my imagination, I know, but I like it.

I don't know what I do...and although I've researched it -- and seen demonstration videos on it -- I'm just not able to grasp the concept of counter-steering whatsoever.

Hi I'm Boulty and I'm a pusher...

I like yourself had the most difficult time understanding it myself due to my trait of attempting to over analyze intuitive actions...counter steering.

Maybe I might be able to help...first put the words of "counter steering" out of your mind...the simple idea that you are actively "steering" opposite the direction your turning is sort of misleading.

Lets look at a right sweeping gradual turn (let's say about 25 mph)...you subconciously start to lean right...as you lean and you're beginning to move your weight to the right...you instinctively put a little pressure on your right hand (this is the "push")...this "counter action"...I didn't say steer...is counter acting the weight on your lean right. Keeps you in balance.

If you don't do this counter action you could move too much of your weight to the right and become very unstable.

This is the way I broke it down to satisfy my over active analytical mind to a point that I found satisfactory.

By the way, there are some other counter measures that I employ as an assist...counter weighting...shifting my rear / weight slightly to the left and sometimes I find more affirmation as I push my left foot down on the floor board.

All in all...without over analyzing...I believe a combination of all the above come into play and the proper combination is processed rather intuitively within my simple mind.

This is my own assesment of what happens and maybe contra to what others may believe to be a more proper execution and / or explanation of what happens...

i think this is a pretty good explanation. for a long time whenever i heard counter steer i always assumed i had to turn the handle bars the opposite direction of where i was trying to go (which didn't work out to well) rather than simply lean the bike and let my arm naturally push it either right or left

I push to initiate corners but pull to bring the bike back in line.

I don't push or pull, I 'press' on the side I want to turn to.

When I press downward, it starts to countersteer, becomes a lean, and the handlebars turn into a turn all in one smooth motion. At least that's how it feels to me.

Quick dodges still get a quick flick by pushing.

To figure out how a countersteer works, get to a quite place you can do 25mph. At speed, twitch the handlebars slightly in one direction and the the other and feel how the weight shifts.

I'm like Frank...I push and pull at the same time. It has always seemed to me like a good thing for training my muscle memory to do both at the same time. You never know which hand will be in a position to get you out of trouble when it happens.

Pushing is more controllable, it's what racers do.

The problem is "foot-forward cruiser". You ain't on one. Nobody should be.

Sitting on one's tailbone, spine curved, arms stretched, legs uselessly stretched forward may get one's Dennis Hopper fantasies going, but is a very bad way to ride.

1. You can't use your hips to help steer. If you've ever ridden a bicycle or motorcycle "hands-off" you know that pressure from your hips are very effective at steering. When riding upright or sport-style, you can use this to help precision even when your hand are on the bars.

2. Likewise foot pressure. Not possible if you're sitting like you're getting ready for a Pap Smear. Both foot and hip pressure can be a big help in emergency swerving and maintaining control on hard braking.

3. Changing position isn't possible. Move forward to go up steep hills, backward under braking.

4. Comfort on long trips, like 20 minutes or more. It's no accident that most "cruisers" cruise to the cafe or bar then park for hours.

9 times out of 10 stories about "Laying it Down" come from either inexperienced riders or "cruiser" "riders". If you're in a comfortable, neutral to forward position, with feet on pegs or boards, you have much better control under all situations.

And a better back. And a better tailbone. And I won't laugh at you.

P.

All this counter steer stuff!

Try turning without counter steering. I don't think you can. I'm not sure that a Bike will turn unless you do. It's in the nature of the beast isn't it. Or am I just off the beam?

fay

You need to be going at a certain speed to countersteer - around 20mph, I think?

When I started riding, there was no training and like everyone else I taught myself (probably badly ). Intuitively I found that pressing downwards on the turning side leaned the scooter into the turn. It wasn't until I read David Hough very recently that I heard of counter-steering. I was so surprised that I took the scooter out there and then to try it and Lo! it worked. But I still press!

Yes, you need a certain speed and I was told it was 20 mph. I've never done the press while doing a low speed filter turn, for instance. It would seem dangerous/crazy.

I agree. I never even think about it. Don't know if I'm counter steering or not. All I know is I lean and go around all sorts of corners at all sorts of speeds just fine. As long as I get there, I don't care.

Actually it's somewhat lower--let's call it fast walking pace.

P.

Push.

To appreciate in a simple way how countersteering works, let's perform a little Einsteinian thought experiment. Think of it like this:

If the object, say, is to navigate a right-hand sweeper, what do you have to do with the front wheel to lean the bike over to make that smooth curve? If you turn the handlebars to the right, the bike will tend to stay upright and make a sharp turn. Great at a walking pace to turn in a parking lot, but not what you're looking for at speed, right?

If you press on the right bar (turning the wheel slightly to the left, or counter to your intended direction of turn), the front wheel will be able to tip in nicely to produce the desired lean to the right.

Think about how the angle of the front wheel and its contact patch change with a turn in either direction and you'll quickly understand what's going on with countersteering. At speed, it's the only effective way to turn a mono-track vehicle. The speed at which it becomes effective will vary depending on a number of factors, including: rake, trail, & wheel diameter.

All you need to know is: Press left to go left, press right to go right.

Ken

Just don't overthink it, or you'll crash into something

This is they way I did it when I was a new rider. When I consciously thought about countersteering, it seemed so counterintuitive my turns would be wobbly. Then I realized I already was countersteering.

Once I understood it better and was able to do it consciously, I became a much better rider. It really helped to control my turns and allow me to swerve and adjust much more quickly.

Leaning and countersteering are related but not the same. Relying on shifting body weight to control the scooter works, but countersteering put the control in your hands and allows for much more refined control.

I am pretty sure that I use both hands, pressing and pulling, but I don't really over think it either, I also just let the bike do what it wants to do and it kind of moves into the turn. To come out of the turn I give it a little extra gas, and it just straightens up and goes straight again all on its own.

My little scooter is so flickable I have to be careful until I get back into the little scooter mind set after riding the big scooter or I end up tossing it around a bit too much and look like an idiot.

I got my little scooter first and I now know that I was counter steering, but the scooter was so easy to guide the countersteering is so slight to be nearly un-noticeable. With my bigger scoot, I feel it more and am far more aware of it so it was easier for me to identify.

I know of folks that do not use counter-steering and depend on leaning alone to steer their scooters, they make large, sweeping turns and their ability to respond to things seems to me to be not so great, and they are (it appears to me, at least) unable to maintain their lane position when riding in a group situation with staggered lane positioning (in other words they are all over the lane and it sucks to try to ride behind them).

I think that counter steering, especially on a larger scooter, allows you to ride much "cleaner", make nicer turns that are tighter and more controlled, and you are able to react faster because you can use your arms and hands instead of having to shift the weight of your whole body to initiate a change of direction.

When it finally "clicked" for me I had to start by pulling back against the grip and then the scoot slightly moved into a lean to the opposite side (pull slightly on the left grip and it leans to the right and you turn to the right). I did this on a straight road several times and suddenly the light bulb went off for me and I understood it. As I said, I now use both hands to countersteer, I want it to be a muscle memory for both hands so if something is going on and only one hand is available I can go either direction without a problem... at least that is my theory.

cheers,
-v

I think this is the answer.

I see this more of a balance thing--pushing & pulling are sort of irrelevant

But it's tough to explain it to new riders, so whatever works is good
Pictures work better anyway

A racer executing a sharp left while turning the wheel to the right:

It's actually the back wheel that determines which way you're headed

Depends on the bike. My MP3, for example, starts countersteering at very low speeds. I'm sure there are a lot of factors here such as rake, weight, wheelbase, etc.

Sorry, Turtle, but your picture disproves your first assertion.

Clearly the rider is pushing or pulling the front wheel to the right, causing the bike to lean to the left. The next picture would show him then turning the wheel back to the left to track the turn.

The countersteer initiates the lean. The lean initiates the turn.

Some riders aren't aware of the first part, but the bike won't turn without it unless you are going very slow.

Thanks!
Your explanation makes the whole process clearer to me now


I just do this kind of thing by feel--I didn't catch that there were steps

In practice, I don't turn my front wheel that much,
so I missed that I'm turning it one way to create the lean & the other way to track the turn

To me, I simply can't see a reason to advocate a "push" over a "pull" except to help explain / illustrate / train. "Push right, go right" is much easier to remember than "if you want to turn left, you have to turn your bars to the right" (Aiieee! )

Regarding training, countersteering is a critical concept to understand, but it's not something that I feel you need to overthink on standard turns.

The motions are typically so slight that all you really need to do is think about LEANING into the turn, and most people who have ridden a bike initiate the turn by countersteering without even thinking about it.

That part is easy.

The importance of understanding the concept is when you need to adjust the turn while you are in it - gotta remember that when you are turning right and you want that turn to go sharper, you have to turn the bar further to the left.

Similarly, this comes into play in quick avoidance swerves - and I found it good to practice "reacting" to things like manhole covers so that I could build up some instinctual muscle memory.

-Raj

And the question is...

Good points, Raj.

As with many skills, when we are learning them we need to consciously think about what we are doing in order to practice them correctly. If we are successful, they then become second nature.

When I was learning to ride (and following a regrettable incident in which, flustered, I pushed [edit] right [edit] to turn left and was immediately parted from my scooter. Yes, you can "high side" at 5 mph. ) I followed the rubric I was taught in the MSF Basic Rider course: SLPR

Slow down when approaching the turn
Look around the turn to where you want to go - actually turning your head helps
Press the grip forward in the direction you want to turn ("Push right to go right")
Roll on some throttle to gently accelerate through the turn.

they have to be counter steering at least a little even to make those wide sweeping turns. i watched a keith code video recently called a flick of the wrist and it extensively covers counter steering. if you rely solely on shifting your body weight and don't turn the handle bars at all your scooter/motorcycle will barely veer in the direction you're leaning. he actually had a guy completely hanging off the side of his motorcycle but without counter steering and the bike barely shifted direction.

Counter-steering is an unconscious reflex on your part and there is seldom a need to exaggerate it, especially with a Vespa. Forced countersteer is occasionally required for heavy, bad handling motorcycles, or when needing to quickly muscle a bike over in a corner because you rode into it too hot. Otherwise, like walking, if you just maintain your visual focus in the direction you want to travel your brain's auto-pilot will do the rest.

The nut of the thread is should you pull or push to counter steer.
I don't have a dog in the fight but thought an image of a PUSH-ME PULL YOU
ala Dr Doolittle. might be funny.

The more you think about this the more you get confused. Best bet is to go out and try it. It is called counter steering because it is totally bizarre to the mind.

Yep, got it. I thought your humor was spot-on.
My comment wasn't at you or the issue, just my take on what a push-me-pull-you must be thinking.

Youre disqualified. You have 3 wheels

My thoughts:

Leaning does almost nothing. I can ride straight down the road with the scooter leaned over quite a lot.

There is only countersteering if you're going faster than a brisk walking pace, whether you think that's what you're doing or not.

The handlebars are connected in the middle. Pushing one is the equivalent of pulling the other. Thus, it doesn't matter which you think you're doing; you're doing both.

Glad you got it.

Can you do it in front of a video camera? Because I'd kind of like to see that!