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UTC quote
BravoTwoFour wrote:
Rob In Denver wrote:
....seems little downside if someone wants to do it.
...However, extra grease can't hurt.

So, is anyone willing to get a few made to specs? Or should I look into it?
I do not have the time myself to look into having them fabricated but if you or another MV'er does so, I definitely would like a set. I think you will see a lot of interest here which should bring costs down with economies of scale. The downside is the distribution effort required.
+1 - I'd do it just because a bearing without grease is nekkid IMHO. I also agree this was a strange choice for the bearing.
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I don't know what the shear load on these bolts are but I would guess grade 8 just to be safe since the bolt will have a hole drilled in it. And to keep it simple I would vote straight zerks.
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UTC quote
stickyfrog wrote:
I don't know what the shear load on these bolts are but I would guess grade 8 just to be safe since the bolt will have a hole drilled in it. And to keep it simple I would vote straight zerks.
Pretty sure from the OP's post they are grade 8 stock - he suggests possibly a 10. A point of possible concern is also whomever does the drilling should be careful of heat buildup affecting the temper of the bolt.
I'd say make the bolt with threads and leave the choice of zerk to the customer - you can pick 'em up at any auto supply.
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UTC quote
BubbaJon wrote:
stickyfrog wrote:
I don't know what the shear load on these bolts are but I would guess grade 8 just to be safe since the bolt will have a hole drilled in it. And to keep it simple I would vote straight zerks.
Pretty sure from the OP's post they are grade 8 stock - he suggests possibly a 10. A point of possible concern is also whomever does the drilling should be careful of heat buildup affecting the temper of the bolt.
I'd say make the bolt with threads and leave the choice of zerk to the customer - you can pick 'em up at any auto supply.
My neighbor will use coolant with the machine. Zerk threads are not all the same.
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Count me in for a set, thanks!
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As Jim stated before, backing off the spanner nut is likely the best first approach. Has anyone found out what "size spanner wrench", is used. Have not pulled the plastic off yet, to measure the spanner nut size.
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It's by far and away quicker and easier using a drift.
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mjm50cal wrote:
Do you want grade 5 or grade 8 bolts? Straight, 45 or 90 degree zerks?
The bolts is a exagonal head M10 x 30mm of stem(the stem diameter is 10mm the head are 17mm ) full Threaded ,metric pass, galvanized
The original one are a 8.8 strength class
8. = Minimum tensile strength = 800 N / mm ² minimum yield strength = 8 (80% tensile strength min.) = 640 N / mm ²
(this is the european sistem of classification i dont know the english or USA system)
my advice and use the strength class type 10.9
10 = Minimum tensile strength 1000 N / mm ² minimum yield strength = 9 (90% tensile strength min.) ² = 900N/mm
these are 25% more tensile strength and yield strength +40% compared to standard
to compensate for the slight weakening caused by the change
at the start of the topic there is a technical drawing with dimensions of change (metric misures sorry i am european )
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UTC quote
We do not recommend the angolar zerks are much more bulky than linear (at least the ones I found) and thus weakens the bolt to much to install them
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Count me in. I'm sending a pm to you, mjm50cal.
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UTC quote
Hi.

The topic of the grease-nipple-bolt was discussed a year ago:
Steering "notch"

My thoughts:

1. I agree with JimC in that the preload is really important. Do that at the same time.

2. Yes, you need grease in the bearings, but the best part of this solution is that it forces the cruddy grease out of the bearings and keeps them clean.

3. I used a 45-degree nipple so I could get at the fittings without removing the tupperware.

4. Unless you're in a really challenging environment (wet, salty, dusty) doing the greasing every 6 months is probably fine.

5. The biggest drawback is that you're riding around with an extra 1/2-kilo, but since I still haven't got rid of the weight I put on over Christmas, it probably doesn't matter much.

6. I avoided drilling and tapping a hole for a grease nipple in the headstem, because I wasn't certain that I could keep the swarf out of the headstem. The bolt was much safer.

7. I made ONE bolt, and I remove and replace the stock bolts as per the method on the 1-year-old-link above

Gonzo.
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To mjm50cal and others,
If you arrange to get them made, PLEASE do not restrict your distribution/sales to only those in the USA.
Thanks.
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And accept PayPal! Most important for overseas folk, and makes printing shipping labels oh-so-easy.
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good morning
I did one final check of dimensions,
and then I upgraded design,
this is the result
Last version of the mod drawing
misures in millimeter
Last version of the mod drawing misures in millimeter
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Grease Gun Works too
Got this done today:

First thing was to make a plastic bolt with grease fitting, just because I had one available. It worked very well on the first bolt hole.

Then I wondered if just sticking the end of the grease gun flexible hose into the bolt hole would work also. It Did!
By removing the nozzle on the end of the hose and sticking on an available 'O' ring I found this arrangement worked equally well on the three remaining holes.

It took 30 -50 strokes of the gun then saw the grease oozing out from the lower seals,and in the case of the upper 2 bolt holes I could actually hear the grease coming out.

Using the tilt lock I was able to tilt the machine over then hit lock. When I straightened up the scoot back onto the rear stand, the upper bolt on one side came into clear view. Reversed this to do the 2nd top bolt.
plastic bolt and grease gun hose without nozzle
plastic bolt and grease gun hose without nozzle
Hose end in top bolt hole
Hose end in top bolt hole
Nozzle removed and O ring added
Nozzle removed and O ring added
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Wait what? The threads on the end of the grease gun hose fit the threads in the bolt hole?
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stickyfrog wrote:
Wait what? The threads on the end of the grease gun hose fit the threads in the bolt hole?
Looks like it. That's an easy fix then! I have a grease gun in the shed. Guess what I'll be trying next.
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DougL wrote:
stickyfrog wrote:
Wait what? The threads on the end of the grease gun hose fit the threads in the bolt hole?
Looks like it. That's an easy fix then! I have a grease gun in the shed. Guess what I'll be trying next.
That's great. Leave it to an Alabamian to find a direct, simple method for just about anything. Laughing emoticon
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stickyfrog wrote:
Wait what? The threads on the end of the grease gun hose fit the threads in the bolt hole?
No.

The threads for the bolts are deep inside the holes, but by lightly pressing the end of the hose into the top of the hole (loose fit) the grease easily flows all the way home!




.
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stickyfrog wrote:
DougL wrote:
stickyfrog wrote:
Wait what? The threads on the end of the grease gun hose fit the threads in the bolt hole?
Looks like it. That's an easy fix then! I have a grease gun in the shed. Guess what I'll be trying next.
That's great. Leave it to an Alabamian to find a direct, simple method for just about anything. Laughing emoticon
Actually that's Scots/ Alabamian....

Y'all don' firgett that neeether.......... Laughing emoticon



.
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UTC quote
Rank Bajin wrote:
stickyfrog wrote:
DougL wrote:
stickyfrog wrote:
Wait what? The threads on the end of the grease gun hose fit the threads in the bolt hole?
Looks like it. That's an easy fix then! I have a grease gun in the shed. Guess what I'll be trying next.
That's great. Leave it to an Alabamian to find a direct, simple method for just about anything. Laughing emoticon
Actually that's Scots/ Alabamian....

Y'all don' firgett that neeether.......... Laughing emoticon



.
Damn strait! Awa' n bile yer heid.
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Rank Bajin wrote:
Actually that's Scots/ Alabamian....
Y'all don' firgett that neeether.......... Laughing emoticon
.
Yep that Scots blood will find the cheap method every time! My mom's side of the family is Scottish Duncans. We did the DNA test as part of the Duncan surname project and tied together two branches of the family. Seems there are two main branches of Scots in Alabama one migrated from Virginia to Kentucky down through Tennessee into 'Bama and the other via South Carolina then Georgia to 'Bama. You ever done any research on the family tree? I can PM more details if you'd like. The DNA test qualified us for membership in Clan Donnachaidh - one of the oldest in Scotland.
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UTC quote
BubbaJon wrote:
Rank Bajin wrote:
Actually that's Scots/ Alabamian....
Y'all don' firgett that neeether.......... Laughing emoticon
.
Yep that Scots blood will find the cheap method every time! My mom's side of the family is Scottish Duncans. We did the DNA test as part of the Duncan surname project and tied together two branches of the family. Seems there are two main branches of Scots in Alabama one migrated from Virginia to Kentucky down through Tennessee into 'Bama and the other via South Carolina then Georgia to 'Bama. You ever done any research on the family tree? I can PM more details if you'd like. The DNA test qualified us for membership in Clan Donnachaidh - one of the oldest in Scotland.
Ah'm a Balvenie man mahsef... straight up nah, ya heah?
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Aye, but Ron is the real deal, with the actual Scottish accent, and bewarned he can charm the socks off ye with it, and yer wimminfolk as well!

Great find Ron, you have made it easy for us all. A lot of work was put into this project by Simon, and we owe him a word of thanks for his efforts!
I am glad you figured this out now, before I or anyone else, had made a production of a few hundred of them!
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UTC quote
BubbaJon wrote:
Rank Bajin wrote:
Actually that's Scots/ Alabamian....
Y'all don' firgett that neeether.......... Laughing emoticon
.
Yep that Scots blood will find the cheap method every time! My mom's side of the family is Scottish Duncans. We did the DNA test as part of the Duncan surname project and tied together two branches of the family. Seems there are two main branches of Scots in Alabama one migrated from Virginia to Kentucky down through Tennessee into 'Bama and the other via South Carolina then Georgia to 'Bama. You ever done any research on the family tree? I can PM more details if you'd like. The DNA test qualified us for membership in Clan Donnachaidh - one of the oldest in Scotland.
Much more impressive than my own lineage. I would be very much afraid if my DNA was released at the numbers of Vigilante Gumshoes surrounding 'ma hoose' trying tae collect the reward money... Laughing emoticon Laughing emoticon ROFL emoticon

The only qualifications i've aspired to in my 66 years is automatic membership into Barlinnie Prison Glasgow.......More laughter!!

Came over in '67 me an' the missus. Snuck in through the back door ...i.e Canada

The only family tree we ever saw was when ma faither wid steal wan oaf a passing lorry, 'til the polis nicked him.............r

Cheers

.
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Rob In Denver wrote:
Aye, but Ron is the real deal, with the actual Scottish accent, and bewarned he can charm the socks off ye with it, and yer wimminfolk as well!

Great find Ron, you have made it easy for us all. A lot of work was put into this project by Simon, and we owe him a word of thanks for his efforts!
I am glad you figured this out now, before I or anyone else, had made a production of a few hundred of them!
You are so right. Simon made an excellent presentation, and because of that I found it so easy to come up with another step in carrying it out.

BTW..........Say hello to your lovely wife for me!!!!!

Nod, nod wink, wink..............



.
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Rob In Denver wrote:
...Great find Ron, you have made it easy for us all. A lot of work was put into this project by Simon, and we owe him a word of thanks for his efforts!
I am glad you figured this out now, before I or anyone else, had made a production of a few hundred of them!
Couldn't agree more. +1 to simonzeb and RankBajin both for great, useful posts here.

So, what grease did you use Ron?
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So far we had already reached thanks to the excellent suggestions Rank Bajin,end similar solution of Enzodan an Teddy in italy, and you can also stop here that is factual and running.
bat the two sistem based on the same compcept to grease the bearing by the bolt hole,are similar bat have same little difference
With my metod you use tools and need to position the scooter in the box for 10 or 15 min only one time in the rest of case you need only the grease gun and 2 min of time ad do easely the lubrification whenever you want
By the over metod you need the tools and 10 or 15 min of time every time you wish to interveneand and you have to commit and dirty a bit more

My idea was to go a bit beyond, I tend to make the lubrication and maintenance of washers and then they can get almost instantaneous fiercely and see if you solved the problem altogether (only km will settle the issue )

I'll give you an example in another field just to explain

If you already have the back protector in the jacket, put towels in the morning and go, whether if you have a separate back protector certainly more effective ergonomic and protective, finish that is still a good part of the time might leave him at home in the hurry of everyday life
you need a minute longer to carry the separate back protector but still a minute too much pratically(I've got both x chronicles)

In my opinion if you have them all once every month or two from a pump is the way you do immediately is simple and clean the grease .
If you feel well at predicting the key .. put the tripod on the sidewalk ... if you want to tighten all the way with the best metod you need torque tools etc., in short, it ends when you have no time ,when you do not want, when you forget it, if you do it one or two time for year you already went well Are enough and perhaps forward, maybe not.
the bearing are so stressed and I think he needs to have every possible help!
If is possible and quick pump up grease 5 or 6 time for year i think are better
himo of course
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BravoTwoFour wrote:
Rob In Denver wrote:
...Great find Ron, you have made it easy for us all. A lot of work was put into this project by Simon, and we owe him a word of thanks for his efforts!
I am glad you figured this out now, before I or anyone else, had made a production of a few hundred of them!
Couldn't agree more. +1 to simonzeb and RankBajin both for great, useful posts here.

So, what grease did you use Ron?
Thanks to all. Especially to Simon who brought the issue to the fore. Even though an issue may have been tabled at an earlier point in time, periodically reminding everyone is definately a good thing.

BTW I happened to have a can of Marine Wheel Bearing Grease in my garage, and had used it successfully in the past. I am thinking twice a year might be adequate.

Cheers.......r



.
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I have questions and a comment (with questions):

Questions;
what does the bolt under discussion hold? In other words, when it is removed what falls out or is loose? Is care needed?

Comment (with questions);
I know from experience that sometimes too much grease does more harm than good, especially if seals are involved.
What is the point of filling up the whole tube if the grease goes directly into the bearing anyway, as has been detailed earlier.
Why not just pump a small amount of good quality bearing grease or multi purpose grease into the bearing 2 or 3 times a year, rather than fill the whole tube up, that has the potential to cause a problem later, or at the very least be a nuisance when the bearings are ultimately replaced?
Too much grease may also regularly weep out and become a pest.

Your comments please.
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johndunoon wrote:
I have questions and a comment (with questions):

Questions;
what does the bolt under discussion hold? In other words, when it is removed what falls out or is loose? Is care needed?

Comment (with questions);
I know from experience that sometimes too much grease does more harm than good, especially if seals are involved.
What is the point of filling up the whole tube if the grease goes directly into the bearing anyway, as has been detailed earlier.
Why not just pump a small amount of good quality bearing grease or multi purpose grease into the bearing 2 or 3 times a year, rather than fill the whole tube up, that has the potential to cause a problem later, or at the very least be a nuisance when the bearings are ultimately replaced?
Too much grease may also regularly weep out and become a pest.

Your comments please.
no risk of losing anything by removing these bolts one by one
also remove all along the quadrilateral is kept closed by at least 8 bolts
you just put attention at the washers, which are under bolts
There are two different types for upper and lower bolts
you're just careful not to lose or confuse it
and put them back under the bolts when you put them in their place

grease can only do well not to worry
also because the problem is that the bearings lose it because there are not any sealing elements to seal the system
then there is nothing that can break by putting pressure
The bearing is better that they are under the influence of too much fat rather than risk ending up dry ,rubbing metal on metal
the little grease excess can easily remove with a rag
limit ends on the mudguards where it is harmless
(This is what happened to me after 850km of Motorway in one day under a terrific sun, some grease came out bat in very little quantity)
The quality of grease is important ,but secondary
if you can replace and supplement them when you wont (like in my system)
If you remove everything to do it and make this great mantinance only once at year, then becomes crucial

The only possibility of same troble whit greese are in case of very very low temperature
it can freeze and nail down the mechanics(however it is much less of the motor oil or cooling sistem liquid ad exempium)
but does so only in very extreme situations and in every case if all around are completly frosty not are a good idea to travel around with a scooter without same nail or chain on the wheels
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Now do not forget how any grease on the internal threads will greatly effect the "torque value". Screw torque is rated with "dry metal", not lubricated. Would suggest maybe 30-40% less torque, but just a guess- ta - mate? My thinking is just dozen strokes of grease periodically. A filled tube can become a thick dry grease over time. Especially since the bearings do not really rotate much.
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G03 wrote:
Now do not forget how any grease on the internal threads will greatly effect the "torque value". Screw torque is rated with "dry metal", not lubricated. Would suggest maybe 30-40% less torque, but just a guess- ta - mate? My thinking is just dozen strokes of grease periodically. A filled tube can become a thick dry grease over time. Especially since the bearings do not really rotate much.
with my system
first put the bolts modified dry at the correct torque(45Nm)
then add the grease that goes into the bolt through the central hole
not out on his thread
even if you make a lot of pressure grease did not make it back in the threads
grease can not drying inside the tube if every 2 months they put a little more new grease
the old dry and dirt leaves from the ends of the steering tube and inside stays fresh and clean
that the bearing little rotation is true
is part of the problem
because the roller of the bearing work almost fixed positions on the metal and consume the support ring
with the grease they are more posibility to roltate and not rub on the support
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Hooked
MP3 - 500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 427
Location: Alabama, USA
 
Hooked
@rank_bajin avatar
MP3 - 500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 427
Location: Alabama, USA
UTC quote
Had my first run with the newly lubed front end. WOW!!!

The difference is truly remarkable. I didn't think I'd be having this issue with only 4400 miles on the clock. Was I ever wrong.

Silky smooth and so light at the front end now.

Try it, I think you'll be a lot happier when you do.


Cheers.......r



.
@mjm50cal avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Red MP3 500 RUBY DRAGON
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2626
Location: Northern CA
 
Ossessionato
@mjm50cal avatar
Red MP3 500 RUBY DRAGON
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2626
Location: Northern CA
UTC quote
Have 50 bolts rated at 10.9. Will have the first ones ready sometime next week.
Installing straight zerks. PM me quantity and address so I can get accurate shipping pricing.

Mike
OP
UTC

Member
Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
Joined: UTC
Posts: 39
Location: cascina-pisa-toscany-italy
 
Member
Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
Joined: UTC
Posts: 39
Location: cascina-pisa-toscany-italy
UTC quote
if someone prefers to weld rather than working lathe
this is a good alternative
of lucam74 on www.piaggiomp3isti.com
he welded the an m6 nuts on the m10 bolt head in this manner does not even need to thread use only the 2mm drill to make the grease passage troght the bolld
http://www.piaggiomp3isti.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7499&whichpage=11
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
@bubbajon avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5288
Location: Austin, TX
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@bubbajon avatar
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5288
Location: Austin, TX
UTC quote
Not sure that's such a great idea either - I'm unaware of any welding that would not require re-tempering of the bolt - simply not enough material there to dissipate the heat. It does look like a nice clean weld so maybe it's possible but I really am leery of weakening something that essentially holds the front end together. I like RB's plastic bolt idea - cheap, easy to drill - will keep the grease out of the threads. Sure you have to take bolt out, put plastic greaser bolt in, pump grease, take greaser out, put original bolt back in times 4. But no point in getting lazy about it when your safety and mechanical integrity is at stake. I'm betting the whole process takes no longer than taking that miserable airbox on and off to clean and re-oil the filter (most of which is fiddling with those perverse screws).
@mjm50cal avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Red MP3 500 RUBY DRAGON
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2626
Location: Northern CA
 
Ossessionato
@mjm50cal avatar
Red MP3 500 RUBY DRAGON
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2626
Location: Northern CA
UTC quote
Don't worry, I got all the PMs. Still in the process of manufacture. All bolts are being processed on a lathe with water soluble lubricant.
When sending PMs, please give specific numerical quantities. I know that if you want a couple, you want two. Everybodys definition of "few" and "several" are different.
Please send complete mailing addresses.
I will send the bolts out in order of PMs sent that I don't have to decipher.
Reiterating, that this is not a bussiness for me, I am doing it for the pleasure of being a member of the MV community. I am however compensating my neighbor for his time at $1.00 a bolt. He said it would take around two hours to do 50 bolts. I thought that was fair since that is what he does for a living.
So we are right around $2.00/bolt with his labor plus shipping.

Mike
@rob_in_denver avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Mp3 500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2320
Location: Denver Colorado
 
Ossessionato
@rob_in_denver avatar
Mp3 500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2320
Location: Denver Colorado
UTC quote
MJM thanks for what you are doing, should we send a check--paypal or what?
Even though I took mine off and easily got grease in there, I would like not having to remove them every time.

In talking with Ron we both agree the scooter now handles differently, and seems much "looser", I think just something to get used to, but wonder if that is everyones experience?

By the way, I just shot grease in all the holes ( pretty much a whole big tube of Mobile one Synthetic grease) it did not come out anywhere else. That seems to work.
@mjm50cal avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Red MP3 500 RUBY DRAGON
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2626
Location: Northern CA
 
Ossessionato
@mjm50cal avatar
Red MP3 500 RUBY DRAGON
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2626
Location: Northern CA
UTC quote
I use the blueish/green marine trailer bearing grease from Home Depot or Kragen.
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