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El Macho
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I think that you are right that the manual gives the incorrect torque settings. However, the torque setting given in the manual is too high AFAIK.
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UTC quote
the orginal factory installed set where to tight and no grease what so ever, i think there was no grease in stock at that time

the second set what i posted earlier where installed by my dealer with the specs in the topic 20Nm
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UTC quote
Piaggio should have used conical bearings instead of ball bearings for this application. Much more surface area and stronger in the direction of the stresses induced.
Still should have grease though.
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UTC quote
the top one is a Ballbearing but that one isn't the problem

its the bottom one, and thats a needlebearing and the housing of that one is to soft for the mp3, its designed for the mopped LX 50

i allready went to a specialized bearing shop and the don't have a better one in that size
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Maksor wrote:
the top one is a Ballbearing but that one isn't the problem

its the bottom one, and thats a needlebearing and the housing of that one is to soft for the mp3, its designed for the mopped LX 50

i allready went to a specialized bearing shop and the don't have a better one in that size
The bearing quite a bit bigger than what is in an LX50...Have them cross reference to a Timkin bearing. Many of the KOYO and KBC are made in China.
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UTC quote
DougL wrote:
I think that you are right that the manual gives the incorrect torque settings. However, the torque setting given in the manual is too high AFAIK.
The marks you see in the vertically in the race are the hammering effect of the bearing into the race = too loose.
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With all the PMs I'm getting, I'm getting another 50 bolts. My neighbor says he is going to try and work on them this friday.
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UTC quote
VespaBurlington wrote:
Maksor wrote:
i don't wanna be a partypooper but did allmost the same mod, and my bearings are again gone after 10000 miles / 16.000km


The factory set installed to tide and with no grease at all, managed to go over 14000 miles
the newly installed with a lot of grease only 10000 miles

in a couple of week i get the second set in
What did you torque your bearings to??
Manual says 15Nm...should be at least 20NM
Now I'm getting confused - seems JimC sez to tighten to where no slack is evident then back off 110 degrees versus the 90 stated in the manual. How in the world does that procedure factor in with torquing the nut down? Can JimC or CheekyThomas clarify the correct procedure for checking the adjustment?
Also - it would seem that it would behoove folks wanting to do the grease mod to make sure the adjustment is correct prior to adding grease - otherwise not a prayer in hell of correlating anything as far as adjustments and/or wear.
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UTC quote
I am with you on this Bubba. I want to see the torque wrench for this.
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El Macho
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UTC quote
VespaBurlington wrote:
DougL wrote:
I think that you are right that the manual gives the incorrect torque settings. However, the torque setting given in the manual is too high AFAIK.
The marks you see in the vertically in the race are the hammering effect of the bearing into the race = too loose.
Despite you being a dealer, I am still with Bubba and OAD, and am certain that you are incorrect on this one. Sorry. Time and time again, it has been overtightening that has caused failure, not looseness.
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UTC quote
Popcorn emoticon Popcorn emoticon Popcorn emoticon


Dave
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today my mechanic and i looked at the legs of my fp3 mine is a LT so the legs are futher apart 4.4cm compared to a RL Fuoco/500

the legs of a lt version are standing more like this --> / \ instead of a RL/RST fuoco/500 likee this | |

this could be the source why the LT version need to replace the bearings sooner the forces on the bearings are different
a maybe solution replace the legs for the rl/ Fuoco ones this will work in most european countries but not in Germany
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Maksor wrote:
today my mechanic and i looked at the legs of my fp3 mine is a LT so the legs are futher apart 4.4cm compared to a RL Fuoco/500

the legs of a lt version are standing more like this --> / \ instead of a RL/RST fuoco/500 likee this | |

this could be the source why the LT version need to replace the bearings sooner the forces on the bearings are different
a maybe solution replace the legs for the rl/ Fuoco ones this will work in most european countries but not in Germany
Ok - so lemme get this straight - you replaced the legs on your bike with the LT legs - so now they "splay" outwards / \ instead of | |. I'm assuming the misalignment comes from mixing and matching parts from the 500 front end conversion and the LT borrowing. No wonder they wore out - that is introducing an axial load which they're not designed for. I hate to say it but it seems like your mods have created problems for you... I'm still trying to wrap my head around how they could be splayed tho - the tubes are held in place by the arms - those should determine the angle of the tubes and only a misalignment on the top to bottom arms would cause that. It shouldn't be possible in my mind's understanding of it. If the mounting point changed from teh front end hardware it would introduce more of an offset than a splay. That make sense?
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UTC quote
Situation of the modified bolt after 5000miles
Greetings all, folks
An update, since I made my modification to the vehicle by installing the modified bolts, I no longer had any other problem with the steering
and so far I have traveled more than 8500km (5281 miles) by including several long journeys:

- A long journey 800km (497miles) in one day to see an air show
- A week of holiday in Sicily along with a total of 2.600km (1.615miles) in 10 days
- The traveled back from Sicily to Tuscany in a single stage one-day 1150km (714miles)

All this without the slightest problem with the steering
so far I made about two greasing quick and fast as is allowed by the modification
The bolts are resisting very well and stay in perfect condition,without any problem and greasing the steering sistem are getting easy, quick and clean

It would be interesting that those who mounted the bolts change will update on how you are finding to use them!
Bye Bye
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BubbaJon wrote:
[ I'm assuming the misalignment comes from mixing and matching parts from the 500 front end conversion and the LT borrowing. No wonder they wore out - that is introducing an axial load which they're not designed for. I hate to say it but it seems like your mods have created problems for you... I'm still trying to wrap my head around how they could be splayed tho - the tubes are held in place by the arms - those should determine the angle of the tubes and only a misalignment on the top to bottom arms would cause that. It shouldn't be possible in my mind's understanding of it. If the mounting point changed from teh front end hardware it would introduce more of an offset than a splay. That make sense?
No mine is a original LT i'm gonna replace my LT legs for the Fuoco ones Dutchman got a RL motorcycle version his front wheels are standing 42cm wide, mine is a LT and are 46.5 wide and with a LT version the leg are going outwards at the bottom a few mm we compared it with a RL that was standing in a corner at my dealer first delivered 12/09 with less then 5000km's on it and mine is from 03/09 with allmost 40.000km on it

Dutchman's mp3 is from '08 and had done allmost the same KM's as mine with no bearing replacement and mine needs his second set we both did the same mod greasing the bearings
⬆️    About 3 months elapsed    ⬇️
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mjm50cal wrote:
With all the PMs I'm getting, I'm getting another 50 bolts. My neighbor says he is going to try and work on them this friday.
I believe this mod. to be one of the more significant for 2010, but with the quantity produced and distributed I am at a loss as to the limited response, good or bad from installing these bolts.

Do we have any horror stories out there yet to be published ? Or have many folks stuffed them away in the bottom drawer ?

Each and every time I go for a ride I am always reminded as to just how smoooth!!! the front end is now.

Happy and Safe 2011......r
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Alternative To Grease Nipples
For all who think fitting grease nipples is overkill I can tell you that the tapered nozzle from a silicon sealant cartridge ( the DIY building trade kind) makes a perfect seal with the threads when inserted into the bolt holes. The threaded end fitted over my grease gun nicely and I removed each bolt in turn and pumped in graphited grease until it oozed out of each bearing. I also slackened the adjusters 1/4 turn which on my (nearly new) machine gave just perceptable play. I undid the track rod ends to help assess this, I think I'm only just strong enough to grab the assembly and rock it!

Regards Roadster
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Re: Alternative To Grease Nipples
roadster wrote:
For all who think fitting grease nipples is overkill I can tell you that the tapered nozzle from a silicon sealant cartridge ( the DIY building trade kind) makes a perfect seal with the threads when inserted into the bolt holes. The threaded end fitted over my grease gun nicely and I removed each bolt in turn and pumped in graphited grease until it oozed out of each bearing. I also slackened the adjusters 1/4 turn which on my (nearly new) machine gave just perceptable play. I undid the track rod ends to help assess this, I think I'm only just strong enough to grab the assembly and rock it!

Regards Roadster
I hope you re-tightened it. There should be no play. As per JimC - loosen until loose, tighten until no play, back off about 100 degrees (a little over a quarter turn). At this point there should be no play - you are adjusting preload for the bearing.
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Re: Alternative To Grease Nipples
BubbaJon wrote:
I hope you re-tightened it. There should be no play. As per JimC - loosen until loose, tighten until no play, back off about 100 degrees (a little over a quarter turn). At this point there should be no play - you are adjusting preload for the bearing.
Err BJ... My understanding is:

You tighten until the bottom nut is firm. This seats the bearing and preloads it, then back off the 110deg. At that point there should be no play (check by wobbling the forkleg). If there is play, tighten the nut bit-by-bit until there is no play. At this point there is no play AND no preload. Lock the locknut.


(Pedantic) Gonzo
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Re: Alternative To Grease Nipples
GonzoB wrote:
BubbaJon wrote:
I hope you re-tightened it. There should be no play. As per JimC - loosen until loose, tighten until no play, back off about 100 degrees (a little over a quarter turn). At this point there should be no play - you are adjusting preload for the bearing.
Err BJ... My understanding is:

You tighten until the bottom nut is firm. This seats the bearing and preloads it, then back off the 110deg. At that point there should be no play (check by wobbling the forkleg). If there is play, tighten the nut bit-by-bit until there is no play. At this point there is no play AND no preload. Lock the locknut.


(Pedantic) Gonzo
Bottom line = no play
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No Play ??
I didn't mean to start this!!

Its impossible to write instructions for this because ( literally) you can't feel no play! If you have plenty of experience with standard head bearings you will know that when you tighten the locknut you always reduce the clearance by a small amount. Sometimes you just have to have faith in your own judgement.

I would still contend that a very small amount of play is better than pre-load. Unfortunately the conventional wisdom that taper roller bearings work best with pre-load applies to wheel bearings not to steering swivels that have very little rotational travel. My contention would be that if the rolling elements can jiggle around they are not going to stay on one line of contact against the races and therefore won't create a notch. I can't prove this but we do know that in the opposite condition where the pre-load is over-tightened failure occurs quite rapidly.

Regards Roadster
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Yes, Roadster, you're probably right.

The issue is that the preload plus the load from supporting the bike's weight are too much for the "cheese-like" material that the bearings are made of. So, you reduce the preload to the minimum.

I tried using the 110deg back-off method, but found I still had play, so now I simply back off the nut, and then tighten it bit-by-bit until the play disappears.

As you probably know, if you have some play, then the front end can clunk under braking. That indicates that the balls have moved away from the track they're supposed to run in.

As you say, feel is important.

Gonzo
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Do you still have these available? I have a 400 and a new 500. Should I look to add these to both or is it mainly a 500 issue? Are you still pleased with the end results? Should I consult with my local dealer on this and it's possible impact to my extended warranty?

Thanks for your help. I did read through all six pages of the original thread and noticed that feedback all but stopped in September.
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mjm50cal
I tried PMing you a couple times in the past couple weeks but they never leave my outbox Crying or Very sad emoticon .
Do you still have any bolts to 'share'?
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UTC quote
I have had the same issue raybjur...
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UTC quote
Well, I'll post a reply as to the grease bolts. It is my observation that the steering is more free than prior to the lubrication. I verified the preload settings as described by JimC both before and then after filling the tubes with lube. There was 23,000+ miles when the grease bolts were installed. I'm now at 30,000+ miles and the steering remains free and more responsive than prior to the mod. I see no reason not to recommend this mod to anyone with an MP3. My bearings were dry! Now they are lubricated. Even in 20 degree F, the steering is good.
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Just a quick note. Pulled the front end off the bike over the weekend to check the pre-load on the bearing and see if I could grease them up a bit. Using a drift I managed to get the top and bottom nuts loose. The top bolt was tight and took a bit of effort, however the bottom one was really tight ...

Loosened it up, squeezed a bit of grease in and set the pre-load as per jimc's instructions (palm tight on the drift and then 110 degrees back off). Unfortunately, there was still play in the wheels, so I just kept tightening a little at a time until the play disappeared (thanks Gronzo). I had marked the lower nut position before I loosened it, and now checked the new pre-load position to the old one. Was more then a quarter of a turn less now, then with the original (factory) pre-load setting.

Took out the four 'bearing' bolts and put a little grease in each (will do it properly if/when I manage to get some grease-blots off of mjm50cal - fingers crossed). Put the front end on and took the bike for a ride. WOW - the difference in steering weight is quite pronounced. Whether the improvement is from the pre-load adjustment, or the grease, I cannot say, but it is definitely worth doing.

Many thanks to all for the instructions and advice to do this.
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It is necessary to take all the tupper-war off to get to the bearings (for adjustment), or is there a short cut?
Thanks
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To get at the top of the steering arms to adjust the pre-load, it is necessary to take off all the front tupperware.
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*
Let me know whos has some.
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Re: *
Bikemor wrote:
Let me know whos has some.
Has what??
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Windsor216 wrote:
To get at the top of the steering arms to adjust the pre-load, it is necessary to take off all the front tupperware.
on a 250/400 yes on a 500 no
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Maksor wrote:
Windsor216 wrote:
To get at the top of the steering arms to adjust the pre-load, it is necessary to take off all the front tupperware.
on a 250/400 yes on a 500 no
Front side panels still need to come off don't they, or at least makes it a lost easier.
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last time i jacked the bike up high enough and bottomed out one wheel and could reach them, but its easier to un screw the sides tho
you could also do that on a 250/400 iff you got small hands and a long arm
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Re: *
StooterBoy wrote:
Bikemor wrote:
Let me know whos has some.
Has what??
I know that a few of us are a little late to the party, but would still like to get a few of these bolts. I for one, have a 400 and a 500 and would like enough for both (8 as best I can figure).
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UTC quote
i have point off thought

the Bolts that are on sale are weaked because they are drilled out

i personely, don't want to drive with those bolts in

i've made one to but just for greasing otner mp3's when i'm done the old one goes back in
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Maksor wrote:
i have point off thought

the Bolts that are on sale are weaked because they are drilled out

i personely, don't want to drive with those bolts in

i've made one to but just for greasing otner mp3's when i'm done the old one goes back in
But, the bolts Mike is using are rated at more than twice the rating of the OEM bolts, so they should be just as strong drilled out.
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i don't want to risk it it isn't just the 1mm hole in the middle

are they checked for cracks afterwards (even hairline)

by machining the bolts your creating stress to the metal that will weaken them also

your also altering the mixture of the metal by mixing on moluciar basis shavings in to the bolt, it even can leave little pockets of air

i don't think twice as strong bolts are enough
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Location: Ashburn, Va
 
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@stooterboy avatar
MP3 500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4530
Location: Ashburn, Va
UTC quote
Maksor wrote:
i don't want to risk it it isn't just the 1mm hole in the middle

are they checked for cracks afterwards (even hairline)

by machining the bolts your creating stress to the metal that will weaken them also

your also altering the mixture of the metal by mixing on moluciar basis shavings in to the bolt, it even can leave little pockets of air

i don't think twice as strong bolts are enough
I know Mike had a machinist select the bolts, they may have been more than twice as strong, that wouldn't be hard to do. I just know the machinist said they would be fine.
@fuzzy avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
. . 2008 Blue MP3 400. . di Peluria Orso .... 1993 Kawasaki Vulcan 500 ....... 2013 Honda NC700XD; 2017 Versys X300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 6249
Location: South Cumberland Plateau in Tennessee
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@fuzzy avatar
. . 2008 Blue MP3 400. . di Peluria Orso .... 1993 Kawasaki Vulcan 500 ....... 2013 Honda NC700XD; 2017 Versys X300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 6249
Location: South Cumberland Plateau in Tennessee
UTC quote
Broken bolts were admitedly over torqued. Get a torque wrench and do the mod with confidence.
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