Modern Vespa

OK got the speedo issues taken care of, now I am on to a new problem.

Can anybody tell me why my GT200 won't turn over. It will turn & start, but it takes a bit. Mostly it sounds like the starter is just spinning & not catching anything. After a few tries & twisting the throttle at the same time I can get it started.

Any help would be appreciated.

I've had some problems with the starter pinion on my GT200 and although my symptoms were not quite the same this could be the problem. When you engage the starter it turns the starter pinon that moves a gear out and into the starter ring gear on the variator and that turns the engine over. If it has gotten clogged with dust and dirt the spring cannot work properly and it won't move out and engage the starter ring. As complicated as this sounds it really isn't difficult to work on. You have to remove the tranmission cover and then the starter ring. Look under "belt and roller change" in Wiki on this site for photos. Once you have the starter ring off the variator the starter pinion just lifts out. Clean it really good but don't oil it since the oil would get onto the drive belt. You can also remove the starter motor quite easily from the top of the engine and give it a cleaning too if you feel energetic. Hopefully that will solve your problem. If the starter pinion spring is too weak you may have to replace the starter pinion. It doesn't seem like a very strong spring to start with. My symptoms were that the starter would jam and nothing would turn. My lights would go dim and I would just get a loud click. After trying it for six or seven times over an hour or so it would start working again. Without a kick starter we are sort of at the mercy of the electric starter. Good luck and keep us posted.

Yeah, sounds like the Bendix (pinion) gear isn't engaging reliably. Common problem on Leader engines. Before you disassemble anything, though, make sure your battery is fully charged and in top-notch condition. A weak battery can cause the same symptoms... causing the Bendix not to engage even if it isn't sticking.

By the way, the spring in the Bendix assembly returns the gear to it's disengaged position -- it doesn't engage it -- so a weak spring would keep the Bendix from disengaging, not engaging. It is the inertia of the gear when the starter shaft starts to spin that drives the gear out the shaft to engage the ring gear. That is why a good, strong battery is essential for reliable operation... the starter motor has to accelerate to speed nearly instantly.

Besides cleaning, I've found that little careful, light lubrication helps. You just need to make sure you leave no excess that can get on the belt and variator pulley. I used a spray lubricant called Ballistol, then let the Bendix assembly sit on paper towels overnight to make sure all excess had drained out.

Wonderful thanks guys. If I can keep getting it started I shall make a venture into the transmission once it cools off here.

I didn't think it ever cooled off there in August! Listen to what Silver Streak wrote. I don't think I had the exact sequence right, I'm sure he does, but the principle is the same, the starter pinion (bendix) fails. They changed the mechanics of the starter set up on the GTS250, that is probably the reason.

Does it sound like a "whirr" or "chugga, chugga" when you hit the start button? I'm guessing chugga chugga, which means the bendix is engaging properly. Otherwise, throttle manipulation would have no bearing on getting it to start. It sounds like your carb needs attention.

It is a "whirr". I have just got it running from sitting a little too long. So I am probably still have some gum in the fuel lines. Once it starts it keeps going.
It does sound like I have a bad spring.

The "whirr" is definitely the starter motor spinning without the Bendix engaging. It's not the spring; the spring disengages the Bendix and has nothing to do with whether it engages. It's either a weak battery or a sticky Bendix assembly in need of a cleaning/lubing.

I had the battery tender on it prior to this weekend. So I don't think it is the battery. Guess I get to take apart the transmission.

How old is the battery? It's always possible that the battery has gone south and is no longer holding a charge.

I will check it tonight to see if the tender says it needs charging.

Question: I was reading the threads on changing out the belt & saw that some belts have been snapping at 6k miles. Should I go ahead & replace the belt & rollers while its open? I am some where around 6k now.

2006 it is the OEM battery.

What is the battery voltage just sitting there with nothing on (approx 12.8v) and then with the headlight on?

Getting old! Being a 2006, it may be one of the smaller, unsealed batteries which that were marginal to begin with. I'm not really familiar with the battery history of the GT200, but on the LX -- late that year or the next -- Piaggio switched to the YTX12bs sealed battery, which is the largest that will fit in the well, is maintenance-free, and has a higher output. My 2007 LX150 came with the YTX12bs, and even it had gotten weak enough that I had to replace it last year. Scooters are harder on batteries than cars because the less-robust charging system keeps them cycling deeper and more often than car batteries.

Your belt is getting close to the end of its reliable life as well. May as well change it if you wind up having to get into the tranny. You don't want it failing at 60+ mph on the highway, as it could possibly lock up the rear wheel.

If you decide to replace you battery I stongly suggest moving up to the bigger battery they use in the GTS250. My 2006 GT200 came with a sealed battery ( Yuasa YTX12-BS) and after about 3 1/2 years and several bouts with the failing starter pinion I got a bigger battery (Yuasa YTX14-BS) and although the stats show only a marginally stronger battery it seems to be a lot better. The only thing you have to do is remove the plastic battery box (it just lifts out) and save it for if you ever put a non sealed battery back in. I just cut a piece of 5/8" wet suit material to put underneath it and it fits nice and secure plus it has a little cushion to sit on. I got mine at a Honda dealer (several of the Hondas use that battery) and it was considerably cheaper than the Vespa dealer.

I, too, faced the exact same issue starting wise.

My 2006 has original YTX12-BS and it is close to the end of its life. With that rate of discharge, I had the "whirring" sound after not riding for a month due to being out of town.

I put fresh gas, a couple ounces of Sea-Foam, charged the battery one more time and will order an AGM battery to avoid the "acid" battery saga.

This could be a solution for you too.

David

I did finally figure out that it is the battery. I tried to start the GT200 yesterday & nothing since I last rode it 3 weeks ago. I will be going out today at lunch to buy a new battery.

I am ready to not do anything else to the scooter.

I always had starting problem with my LX 150 until I put the updated battery in it.

Now it starts first time every time.

I upgraded from a YTX12-BS to a YTX14-BS some time ago but that didn't improve the cold starting. The engine turns over fine and starts instantly even after it has been sitting for 4 or 5 hours. Sitting overnight is a different story especially with a full fuel tank. It always starts eventually so it certainly isn't a major problem. It is just an annoyance that bothers me beause I can't figure out why this happens. I have replaced the auto choke and have had the carb removed and cleaned. I have used Sea Foam from time to time but nothing really solves this. When it does catch after starting when cold it only fires about half the time for the first 10 or 20 seconds and then finally catches and runs great. I would like to believe it is the idle mixure adjustment and I have been fooling with that but the dilemma still exists.

It would be a good idea to have a new belt on hand, in case you wanted to swap one in
Same for the rollers

Then you can compare the new stuff with the (possibly worn) old stuff
It's always been an easy decision for me, from there

When were the valve clearances last checked? This sounds like a classic Leader engine tight-valve symptom.

It is due for a valve clearance check, I think that will be my next step. By the way JimC I enjoyed talking to you on the 3 Peaks Challenge although it was just briefly. Next trip I'm counting on you bringing a suitcase full of exhaust bushings.

That I can do - and belts!

I enjoyed that day.

Well the OEM battery was on its last legs so I changed it out for a new one.

Now it still wont start, but it does sound like it is trying. Its sounds like it is turning & not "whirring". It seems to be not getting enough gas.

It sounds like a whole tune up is required to be paid for. Any other thoughts?

I'm not exactly clear on what the starter is doing with the new battery. Does it sound like the engine is cranking over properly when the starter is engaged? Sparkplugs are cheap and easy to change I would do that and check out what the old plug looks like. That would be a good place to start. How many miles on the scooter?

If it's cranking the engine vigorously with the new battery fully charged, it's got to be either an ignition or fuel problem. If it is not cranking vigorously, the problem must be the starter motor itself.

This is where I am going to put my money. I have somewhere around 6K miles. I got it running a few week ago, but it took a few tries to get it started with seafoam. This morning it was turning over but no ignition except for a sputter or two. I guess I can add spark plug to my list of belt & rollers.

My Rant:
Why didn't Vespa put a kick start on all of their scooters? It is tiring trying to figure out what it might be electrically.

Are you determined to fix this yourself? If you are considering a belt, variator rollers, and tune up it might be a lot easier to just take it to a Vespa dealer and get them to do all this at once and be done with it. Most of us like to tinker with our scooters but there is something to be said to have a bunch of things done at once by a professional and be done with it. Keep us posted.

It starts right up with no issues now. It might of been old gas in the line. I have been topping it off once a week with new gas.

Trying to decide if I want to tackle the belt & rollers on my own. Anybody in Fort Worth area interested in a few beers for lending a hand?