Modern Vespa

A long time ago, I lowsided(Is that the term where you're driving forward but fall "backwards" on your side? My tires slid forward out from under me on rain-slick ground and I went down.) a Fly 150. It was my first real "accident" and tore up my driving confidence in that leaning any bike made me afraid I'd slide out and go down again. Now that I've got such a good bike for leaning, my subconscious fear of leaning over so far that I fall down is not only silly but potentially hazardous. Other than riding donuts in the local grocery store parking lot after hours, how can I increase my confidence so I can lean as much as I need or want? It's a trust issue, and while consciously I know the MP3 can safely lean a ridiculous amount, what can I do to believe it subconsciously enough to do so in my own driving?

As well, what are some things to look out for to tell me the situation is not the best time for a deep lean and I should instead take a gentler turn around a corner? Like what sorts of water conditions can you safely lean into and which ones should you take more straight?

Man, crashing can really destroy your confidence!

tough one there. While the fly had only 1 wheel to maintain traction the mp3 has 2, that in itself is double the traction on the front end. When approaching any corner you slow enough prior to the corner so you can be off your brakes before entering the corner, then you roll on the throttle throughout the corner. This is the basic technique taught in a MSF class. Now when rolling on the throttle you don't want to grab a hand full and twist it full open. You need to ease it on and keep it steady or slight acceleration through out the turn. What this does is set and stabliize your suspension as to not be doing the pogo thru the corne, which is where you loose traction.

picking your line thru a corner and anywhere on the street is important . you need to stay out of the fluid/oil lane that is typically in the center portion of a lane. This portion is the worst area to be in when it is wet out, because as everyone knows oil and water don't mix well, and this area will be very slippery. It can be slippery even if not raining and it dry out. So picking a line thru the corner is important as the set up for the corner.

The other thing to do is to practice in a large lot like you described. If for nothing more than seat time and being able to know how your bike reacts and what your feeling, how you can do things different or keep doing the right thing by practicing them over and over for confidence.
go out riding with others and talk to them prior to the ride tell them what your having issues with and what you type of riding you need to work on. So they don't just leave you in the dust and say what ever. pick some nice back roads with little traffic to pratice on when it dry. This will help you for when it happens to rain.

When riding in the rain. the first thing to do is decrease the speed. If you normally took a section of road at 50mph in the wet you might be down to 40-45. Braking in the wet is done very easy so you have to give yourself more distance when braking.


Hope this helps some

I laid my Kawasaki Z1 900 down in the rain in 1984 and to this day I am apprehensive in the rain, can't seem to shake that in my head.
I am more afraid of hurting the bike than myself, the thought always going through my head when I am in a turn, " don't want any scratches on the bike, be careful, it's wet".

I need to buy an old beat up MP3 250, gear up real good and just go out and ride hard in the rain to get 100% confidence back.

Now this is interesting and might shake a few skeletons out of the mental closet. My first real dump way back was on pea gravel at an intersection - you know, the "V" shaped patch where vehicles tend to arrange it. I wasn't going that fast but the guy behind was inattentive and damn near ran me over - I was looking at oil pan when he stopped. To this day gravel on the road causes me to act like I'm a noob on my first bike. I guess there's nothing like having your mortality getting thrown back in your face to make you skittish for a long time.
PS: that was on my Z1 too!

I feel your pain! I had a low side in the wet almost exactly one year ago and like you it destroyed my confidence. You always hear the saying, "trust your tires" but once that trust is gone it's hard to get it back. I don't think there is any trick in getting it back, it just takes time and plenty of experience of not falling over. Gradually your brain will learn your not going to fall over every time you lean in the wet. But I would say take your time and progress slowly. If you try and push yourself and slide again that would be bad.

My experience has been anywhere near downtown Seattle is an ice rink in the wet. Perhaps most cities are the same but I cannot remember seeing as much oil on the road as I do here. In a light rain it looks like the Gulf of Mexico. And this is not just after a long dry spell. We can get a light rain every day and every day the streets are rainbow colors. But then I have ridden on country roads in a light rain and I was really attacking the corners. It was only afterward I realized I had been riding in the wet with no fear.

I also hate concrete roads. I do not think they disperse water as effectively as asphalt and they tend to be broken up more. Those little bumps can cause you to lose traction very easily. I've slid on those a few times (but not gone down).

Strangely enough I think the wetter it gets the safer it gets. A lot of water will wash away the oil/clag on the road so it's only the water you are dealing with. Up till the point where aquaplaning becomes a concern. I've never experienced that and I've ridden in conditions where cars are aquaplaning. I guess the narrow tires makes that less of a concern on a bike.

Sorry for rambling on but I hope I helped some.

Either I am right or wrong, but thought the term "low siding", was the act of hard braking and suddenly releasing the rear brake; the inertia of weight and rear compression would spring the bike like a poogo stick. Generally throwing a bike in the air, and 99% lose of control. Mild cases would start the oscillation effect of "tank slapping", or twisting left and right with the steering in attempt to gain control; most times becoming a crash. ???? Even a goldwing has been thrown for quit a distance, and the poor experienced rider died. So, am I wrong on "low siding terminalogy"?

a low side is when the bike is lean in one direction and you fall over in that direction. a high side is when your leaned in one direction and the bike pitches upward and you go in the oppisite direction you were leaning into. These can happen whether your braking or not. A tank slpper is when your going in a straight line and the back end goes one way then the oppiste direction really fast. This may also occur with the front end going back and forth and the rear end going straight. Sometimes this leads to falling down and sometimes not. If you ever get caught in a tank slapper do not brake just roll off the throttle and you should regain control.

Low Side


High Side


With a low side, assuming you are Toreador Pants and don't slide into anything you will get up and walk away with barely a scratch. With a high side you can easily get hurt as you are now falling from around 15' off the ground and spinning as you go. They are very dangerous.

Glad my mind is cleared up now!

This begs a question I think I have asked before--can an MP3 get a tank slapper? I tend to think not, as the two fronts wheels would have to oscillate
in unison.
If not, it is another plus for MP3s. Among many plusses.

Bad experiences stay with you and take time to heal and go away. It will come in time that you can work to get over it, but a little fear is not always a bad thing, keeps you on your toes.
I was nearly hit by lightening once, and for years could not be out in the least rain. Two decades have passed, and I am pretty much completely stupid again, and will go out anyway. But it NEVER clouds up that I do not at least think about it a little.

The Fly is not a very good scooter ( I won one once), the MP3 is so much better!

:shock: Take your bike on a trailer or ride it to the Smokies, jump on "Sky
Line Drive and continue on to the "Blue Ridge Parkway." By the time your done you will be an expert at your riding level. At the time I did this I had been riding for almost 30 years, and my skills were much improved by the end of the trip. This may not be practical but show me a better place to build riding skills in the curves.

we are doing this in Sept come out for another ride on the blue.

I was forced to take a 2nd riding course because of licensing changes here in WA State. They spent a lot of time on the same riding skills as the beginner riding course but now they made sense to me because I could finally see what I had been doing incorrectly.

See if you have a Novice II course available or even consider taking the beginner course over again. It really makes it all come together!

Don't have the mindset that an MP3 can "handle" anything. That's a bad mindset. I had that for a while. It all comes down to a few things:

Surface condition
Tire composition
tire tread pattern
Weather
Riding style.

Knowing how your vehicle behaves on different surfaces is key(it's actually how your tires behave) but your vehicle is what you feel moving around.

Around Puget Sound there is a good variance of Concrete, asphalt, cobble stone(in places) and the absolute worst=concrete with small river stones. The concrete with the river stones is used all over here for freeway paving, it must either be cheaper, or be more structurally resistant to warping over time... Anyway, that stuff is awful when it gets any kind of moisture on it! your tire is constantly changing from gripping concrete to smoothed out river rock.

Know your tire composition. Having a good sticky tire will help you grip in the corners, but might not last as long, look for something with a hard center grip and soft sides.

Tread makes a huge difference! anything with good water channeling is great, just make sure you're not sacrificing too much surface area for contact with the road.

I had some terrible Bridgestone Trailwings on my new bike that were made to look off-road, I got kicked around so much on uneven surface it felt like riding on ice in the rain. I bought a rear tire with a larger tread print, deeper rain channel, and better composition, and now I feel planted all the time. Huge improvement!
Pirelli makes amazing tires for dry and wet traction.

Always keep the weather in mind! adjust accordingly.

As for shaking the feeling of dumping, I laid a few scooters down, 3 to be precise. one from bad tires and water. one from someone merging into me so fast I slammed on the brakes as I leaned away, and the other was overdriving my shitty stella headlight in absolute darkness and missing a turn that went onto gravel.

Getting over that "dipping too far" feeling just takes time, patience, and a ton of riding. Learn the limits of your tires, bike handling, and riding style, in a safe way aka low volume roads and vacant lots.

Other than that, watch some technique videos online, and then watch some MotoGP.

Thanks for the really good advice, guys, and for clearing up low/high siding. I guess you're all right; it just takes time and practice. I'll share something funny.

When I'm out riding two-up with the hubby and lean into a corner, I'll be like some 4 year old who took her first spin on her tricycle with daddy watching. "How was that corner? How did I do?!", while looking all hopeful and excited as I wait for hubby to go, "Very good honey. Keep it up." It really helps with my confidence.

:shock: Just two types of riders Maxi, those that have been down and those who are going down. A motorcycle editor said, "I once went seven years without going down and once seven days." That's about it.
Tideman

Hi Rose,

You want to build your confidence, then I suggest you take a rider education course. I've been riding for 40 years and take it every few years to get my head back into doing the little things right. It's saved me more then once and my wife loved it because as a passenger she REALLY could feel the difference in my riding. Made her feel mush safer on board.

Moe

No. That's a myth. A bigger contact patch does not increase traction.

http://www.stevemunden.com/friction.html

If you happen to hit a slick patch with one tire up front and the other does not lose traction, then you have a better chance of maintaining traction.

how can it be a myth Keith. 1 tire has x amount and if you have 2 tires on the front then you WILL have double the amount of tire touching the road period.

Friction (traction) is dependent upon weight, not surface area. If you decrease the weight, you decrease traction. But the same weight spread over a larger area is still the same weight. Look at the link I posted. It's a really good read.

I read the link you posted and it is a good read. Completely counter intuitive but apparently its been that way for 300 years! I guess all that heavy weight at the front helps with the traction if the 2nd wheel does not.

Technically, it's been that way forever.

I'm a not so very confident rider whose skills are slowly improving. I'm coming to the conclusion that I'm never going to be an adrenaline junkie, but I love to go anywhere, just at my own pace. I took the rider education course, and they are right, it is a big help. The biggest help is getting out on twisty little back roads (no red lights and back to back curves) and keep doing it again and again. I do better by myself than with someone else, and go whatever speed I feel like I can while I am choosing a good line and able to stick to it. Doing that I have noticed that my speed is starting to come up, and I pick better lines. Good luck - come down in September and practice with us 8) . They are a nice bunch of people to ride with.

Your advice is 100% on target. My wife found it helpful to follow me at somewhat slower speeds so she could see what the correct line looks like. I also spent a lot of time following her and giving advice (at her request). We have a bike-to-bike intercom system that enabled me to give her instruction in real time.

Keith,

Thanks for posting that. I just picked up a new MP3 500. A lot of things attracted me to it, but what just didn't seem to pass the "straight face" test were some of the blanket "twice" claims for the dual front wheels.

The advantages may be more along the lines of distributing your "risk" between the two wheels.

Larry

I take it much easier in the wet than I probably need to. For building confidence: -

Take it slow. Every corner will add a bit of confidence.
Know your bike. Tread on the tyres makes a LOT of difference in the wet.
Research technique. Twist of the Wrist book/DVD, etc.

I watched Twist of the Wrist II a while back. It's mostly aimed at getting sports bikers to go faster, but the techniques are all very good.
Things that have made a big difference to me:
1) don't hold too tight - holding yourself rigid (as you tend to do when worried in the wet) actually makes things worse!
2) Moving you body isn't just for sports bikers: I don't shift my bum much, but leaning over/forward means your bike doesn't have to lean so much and makes you more comfortable (feeling 'planted') which helps control (see 1).
3) Try not to brake in a corner. Especially in the wet. Let's face it, the time you really worry about is when you feel you're too fast and won't make it around. It's hard, but it's precisely at that moment you need to be more calm and smooth because braking will make the turn harder for various technical/mechanical/physical reasons.

A good read on how to better handle a bike is a book by Lee Parks called Total Control. The book covers all aspects of riding--corning, braking, etc. I have experiemented with many of his techniques, and they do work.

Practice does not make perfect-perfect practice makes perfect.

In other words if you are repeating the same mistakes over and and over you will ingrain those into your tool box.

Try this-- look to where the road disappears. I f that point is moving toward you slow down-- if it is moving away you can speed up

+1
When I took the class the instructor expressed amazement at my taking a turn without turning my head. I had figured out how to get around and had not killed myself, but his constant reminding me to turn my head sure made things easier. Lots of bad habits if never taught properly and being taught by relative or friend is seldom being taught properly.

thanks and I thought I was your friend

Dirt you have told me 800 times to keep my head up - I'm working on it Listening to your friends kind of depends on which friends. Head up, head up, lose the target fixation, head up - its a mantra

thanks.

SENSITIVE SENSITIVE......

Operative word above was "seldom". Read the post.

And here is back at you "Friend"

Good advice on this thread.

Target fixation is just a fact of our physiology/psychology. The trick is to pick the right target. Look to where you want to go, not at what you want to avoid. This can be harder than it seems, as we are wired to pay attention to perceived dangers.

not to pick a target is the trick. to keep looking thru the turn. If you pick a target you have a tendency to stay on that target. Not good.

Some basic rules that I learned from car racing:

- Do ALL you braking while going straight, before the turn.
- In the turn, you are off the brakes and on the throttle. The tighter the turn the less throttle. You want to balance the tire loads.
- When you slow down, the rear tire gets unloaded (less traction). When you accelerate, the front tire gets unloaded.
- Look where you want to go, not where you are going.
- Practice, practice, practice doing things right and being smooth. Speed comes later.
- When in doubt, go slower... (this is my rule...)

same applies to scoots and m/c's

I think we mean the same thing, OAD, I just wasn't clear. Instead of target, I maybe should have written path. Keep your eyes ahead in the direction you want to go.

yes yes. I just wanted to ensure no target fixation.

I object to riding being called 'driving'.

Do you 'drive' a horse? A bicycle?

Humbug say I.