Modern Vespa

I've been thinking about a good solution to passenger comfort ever since my wife told me of her expiriences with our rides together. Her knees need to be lower and she needs to push off of something with her feet which I think will help her with her hips bothering her. These are my thoughts.

One of my concerns is the pipe scraping in a turn, though it looks promising that it won't. Another is with mounting and dismounting of the scoot. I don't want it to catch anything.
A benefit for the rider is that the passengers feet will rest outside of your heel area and should not hit your calf.

Use u bolts to hold foot plates, this would make them adjustable height. The MP3 is "not passenger friendly"! Warning: Do Not ever Sit on a Goldwing. It could be costly to your wallet!

I need to do something similar for my wife, she doesn't have any leg/hip problems but she does find it uncomfortable. She just lets her legs dangle all the time, which I only found out recently when we were going down a steepish hill and went over a bump. She nearly bounced right off the pillion seat and pushed me forward.

I also don't want to take away from the visual que's of the scoot.

A continuation. Progress has been made.

I continue to knock my head trying to come up with a genuinely plug-n-play solution. Here's my latest thinking, which is in the same purely hypothetical stage that all of my other ideas have died at.

There is a large bolt located (on the /500, at least) just below and behind the passenger footrest. It seems to me that this would make an excellent mounting point, either by putting the pegs right there (say by replacing whatever is already there with something that would extend out several more inches and terminate in a thread to screw down a footpeg onto), or by having something that would swoop (like mjm50cal's project) or divert (like RamblerDan's dogbones) elsewhere. Basic problems with both, though. As for the first, I am not sure that this would be a particularly comfortable peg location considering the stock seat - it seems to me that such a peg location would mean the passenger would have to tuck her feet in backwards like on a sportsbike, but the forward-sloping seat provides no resistance to counter the tendency to fall forward. In the second case, there would potentially be a very large torque constantly applied to the mounting point with nothing to counter it - it might have to be secured to an additional point to prevent it from rotating.

But a more fundamental point is: what exactly IS that thing, anyway? Is it one huge thru-shaft? It seems to be a bolt head on one side and a threaded shaft secured by a nut on the other. Or is it? And what sorts of loads does it take? In my idea, I would replace that entire thing with a new, one-piece, integral footpeg holder. If that needs to be case-hardened, cold-rolled, heat-treated stainless because of the loads it sees, then that's another idea in the dustbin.

There are two problems with that location. The first, you've already stated. The second, is that is a much wider area of the scoot and the mod would need to project beyond all that tupperware and would scrap in the turns. This would be very dangerous for the feet of the pillion because the toes would come in contact with the roadway first, instead of the heal which they could pull up from.

nice thinking on that MJM. you could mount the pegs to the inside or outside depending on passenger preference. Can't wait to see more pics.

Amazing what we'll do for our wimmen. I just installed a ChatterBox and being able to talk to my sweetie while we're riding is a HUGE difference. Much nicer! I'm following all these posts with great interest because Susan has described the same complaints. I'm digging around myself trying to come up with ideas - I like this one the best in spite of being more involved than adding a small brace and bracket to an existing mount point. Between the seat and the crappy passenger accommodations I don't really think they intended this thing to be used for long stretches. Face it - 4 hours on a road in Europe and you're likely in another country - maybe two!

I've seen it firsthand - four hours is just about enough time to make it from the freeway ramp exit for Paris to the end of the Champs Elysee in workday traffic and back...

But I see your point.

MJM, I suppose you are right as far as my idea of using a straight bar - dangerously close to the ground. Might be able to use a swoop bar like you're doing but that then would defeat the plug-n-play simplicity I was envisioning. I had considered doing exactly what you're doing but as a replacement for the centerstand, but that would assume that the benefits of ditching the centerstand clearly outweigh keeping it and after some discussions here I've concluded there is no clearcut answer.

A design question: do I assume that the tubing wlll nest within that arc under the scoot, and therefore the plate will contact the undercarriage directly?

IDEA: would this work if it wasn't welded (I am always looking for a way to avoid welding), but instead the plate merely served to hold the swoop bar in place? By itself, the swoop bar would be able to rotate, but the upper end (a modification of the plates you've welded) could secure to the rearmost floorboard screws a la the UFP. Now the load would be split between the undercarriage, which would be in tension, and the floorboards, which would be in compression.

Does this geometry exist on one of the other MP3s, or is this a /500-specific solution?

What happens if you replace the checkerplate on the actual passenger footrest with a new plate twice the size and hinged across the front edge so that it folds back on itself, and then forms an upward sloping footrest to brace the whole foot?

Fay

Jeff, looking at the Fuoco Parts Diagram PDF, it appears to be bolt 16 in diagram "04.01 - Swinging arm." So I'm thinking that's not a good place to mount the foot rest. Since it's attached behind the pivot point of the swing arm underneath the engine, it would move up and down with the engine/rear wheel assembly. I think you'd have the same problem with the center stand, too...

Mark

So, bent at the front and hinged, making it basically a triangle?

No joy, Fay. The issue is that while the front footrest has a slanty part with a strong frame member underneath it, no such luck on the passenger area. Experiments both by me and others show that the solution has got to get the passenger's feet both forward (to help with the knees) and to some extent out (to get around the driver and to keep the passenger's toes from digging into the driver's calves) Yes, I know that OAD had an idea that avoided that last bit by actually tucking the rider's feet INSIDE the driver's legs, but I noticed Doug has not been posting much on that any more and some experimenting by me indicates that the driver would have to be very slender for that to work. The UFPs work by offsetting the forces directly perpendicular to the slanted portion of the floorboard, which is mostly compressive and very strong. Even then, the UFPs needed some sort of gimmick - last year, springy metal, this year, rubber bumpers - to offload pothole forces from the screws. To put a passenger's feet forward and out would introduce a two-axis torque on the floorboard U-channel that would strip the screws out. I've thought about running additional screws - OAD, BravoTwoFour, and (front pegs) RamblerDan have all done something along those lines. But if the peg is forward of the passenger floorboard, now you're introducing a forward torque on the u-channel, which is not designed to endure a torque in that direction. OAD sidesteps that by using the driver floorboard to carry the load, and B24 sidesteps it by keeping his stirrups directly over the passenger area; in both cases, the forces are compressive and that's what the u-channel is designed for.

Lately I've been toying with a UFP derivative that would bridge the passenger floorboard AND the rear screw of the driver floorboard, with the pegs mounted between the two. That would be very strong, but without putting them out to the side (and introducing a twisting torque), the passenger's feet would be perfectly aimed at the driver's calves at every stop!

I have already come to the conclusion that there is no way to put pegs out in front of the passenger floorboard and rely solely on the passenger area for support. And I am almost certain (but still open to ideas) that you cannot put pegs out to the side while relying solely on the floorboards, you need a second point of support. Hence the bumpers on the UFPs - but the geometry of the scooter under the driver floorboards just happened to be perfect for the UFPs to take advantage of. So for example, if MJM finds that his swoop is unstable or starts to bend under load, he could use the floorboards as an additional anchor point - but the main compressive load would still need to be carried by the swoop bar.

Thanks CubsKing, I figured that was probably the swing arm swivel point. That actually should not mean that it would bounce too much, the fulcrum is the most stable point. But it would mean that is a part whose strength is absolutely critical and should not be messed with. I didn't think about the tendency of the centerstand to bounce because it is behind the swingarm pivot, that's an excellent point. In any event, my idea was essentially the same as MJM's, who appears to have found a better place for the anchor anyway. Plus he's actually doing something about it!

The pictured bolt is not the fulcrum. The pivot is actually about 6 inches in front of that bolt. If you look under the bike, you'll see that there's a large metal plate under there through which the exhaust pipe runs. The front is the pivot. The back is the one pictured. So, my best guess is that those bolts (one on each side) are just holding that metal plate in place to protect the engine.

Another option, for those with a 500 and who don't have a top box, may be to extend the seating area towards the rear of the bike somehow. I'm sure there are lots of passenger seats out there, whether for cruisers, sport bikes or ones really designed for a scooter. But that's definitely not going to be a universal solution...

Mark

I have not posted much about my current set up with the passenger pegs as I have to get the wife to go for a ride which she keeps coming up with honey do's. This past weekend though we did go to see our son and in the process I did pick up a no-mar tire changing tool for my barn . Hopefully this weekend testing on the footpegs.

>Another option, for those with a 500 and who don't have a top box, may be to extend the seating area towards the rear of the bike somehow. I'm sure there are lots of passenger seats out there, whether for cruisers, sport bikes or ones really designed for a scooter. But that's definitely not going to be a universal solution...

????

I don't think I recall anybody ever posting about this. There certainly have been no shortage of people bringing their scoots to custom seat vendors, it seems like somebody here would have tried it by now. My kneejerk reaction is it would offload the front wheels too much, and my second thought is, who am I kidding? (Like the MP3 isn't already front-heavy.) Why wouldn't that work? Would it put too much weight behind the shocks? Would it make the rear tire wallow?

It is a most intruiging idea...

I just had a fleeting mental image - very faint. Something like a rod with a flat hook at the top to hook onto the seat pan - the bottom having a peg or an actual stirrup. The seat would close and secure the "stirrup" with possibly a flat crossbar to tie the two sides together and maybe a third strut/"hook" going forward or to the rear to brace orthogonally against the crossbar providing dimensional stability - additional resistance to rotational torque from the passenger against the "stirrups". The seat pan is strong enough if the top "hooks" are wide enough to distribute the load... We are after all essentially talking about a foot rest...
Hmmmmmmmmmmm - y'all get what I'm trying to say?


PS: AND removable!

The floorboard absorbs the downward compressive force, the seat pan handles the torque forces introduced by pushing down on an offset peg and maybe provides additional support for the tension component of the downwards force...I'll have to think about that one...

I love this forum! Maybe once in my engineering career have I associated with so many great people with such creative ideas.

EDIT: Jon, do you remember this thread: Rear seat for kids??

This was about a child seat that Givi makes with actual stirrups for their feet. Would that, could that, work? (The stirrups, not the seat.) A web strap, hooked into the seat pan at the top, terminating in a stirrup at the bottom. Could the solution - mjm's great concept notwithstanding - be that simple? I'm inviting potshots - why wouldn't it work?

I ordered these today.
http://www.rivcoproducts.com/products/product.php?productid=193&cat=221&page=1

Holy crap! Those are 3/8" thread - I'm adding them to the UFP thread right now!

I've thought of a similar design but for the front. It would have an aluminum interconnect that would tie the pegs together and be mounted above the fuel hatch. The forces would be spread out over a broad area.

Yep, I see what you're saying. And the flat metal under the seat would basically sit across the battery cover. Or could be integrated in a piece that would replace the battery cover...

So, it would be basically shaped like an Omega.

The plate will be bolted to the undercarriage using the existing bolts and putting the rear two washers between the plate and the plastic.

I, like you, try to come up with ways to not weld, and this seems unlikely to succeed without welding. I can think of some options, but more complex and not sure if my clearance concerns will be satisfied.
If I have metal bending I will change the 1/2 inch pipe to 3/4 inch.

The point I am attaching to is the same as the point that the TowPack attaches to. Should be the same on all three.

The pictures first.

Outstanding, mjm50cal!

Continued.....

Overall outcome is excellent! I could do more though. A quick release would be nice since I am solo most of the time. She finds this MUCH more comfy. No hip or knee discomfort. A long ride is needed to test it all but two trips around the block was enough to evaluate the setup and get a good read. With this and the seat mods, I think it will be the ticket to her happiness.
I have leaned it from stationary to max lean, and the center stand and the PP scrap at the same time.
If I embark on a quick release setup, this one will be for sale.

Mike

Looks solid. Job well done, especially if the boss is happy

Nice Shirt

very nice job. Hey who is that good looking couple you got to pose for the photo op and steal your shirt?

If the wife is HAPPY all is HAPPY.

This is a great thread - well done on the mod and I too like the shirt!

With all due respect to OAD, B24, and other innovators, mjm seems to be the only one of us to have a genuine solution, with the passenger's feet in the optimum position.

A few challenges Mike,

1. Is there any way the peg plates (or at least the left plate) could be detachable and the tube feed through the security link so the link would not have to be sawed off?

2. What about angling the tube back a few degrees? You would gain a much-needed inch or two of calf clearance without significantly changing the passenger's extension; it's true that the tube won't transmit force straight down anymore but it looks like the actual force already includes a forward component anyway. Of course, if clearance requires an extra bend that's complicating the forming process.

Awesome mod, pics, smiles, and shirt!!

1. Not really. I didn't want to have to saw it off but saw immediately that it was necessary to be able to tuck the bars in that little nook area. Deb said that she would have been OK with having the pegs even wider. Making that "U" wider is not an issue, but will affect the max lean angle, depending on your cruising style or Dragon running. I didn't want limitations.

2. If the tube is angled forward or aft it will need to be wider. There is definately enough room above the mounting plate for a 3/4" pipe. Which you might want if you go wider. Wider may be necessary for people with different builds. You need to take into consideration passengers leg length, thigh size in combination with the riders girth(I like big butts and I cannot lie........).

If you look at my 3rd picture posted yesterday, the supporting bar on the right can easily be unbolted and modified to add two outward mounting points so that the mounting point can have a much more stable 4 point mounting plate.

Thanks for the compliments.

>If the tube is angled forward or aft it will need to be wider.

My first reaction was "huh" - why would that be?

Then I looked closer at your side pix "on the lowest level" and saw that if the peg mounting plate was any further aft, it would smack into the leading edge of the passenger floorboard; the only way to move it aft would indeed be to also widen the entire assembly to go around that part of the floorboard. Ditto for my next solution, which would be to weld the peg plate facing aft instead of forward of the tube: same problem. You are as far back as you can be and still stick close to the existing panels.

On the other hand, you could turn the pegs around (or use round or at least symmetrical pegs) and you'd gain an inch of calf space right there. Since in your pictures showing "leg interference" it appears that you are right on the hairy edge (pun intended) that one extra inch might just make the difference.

For the record, even though I abhor cutting anything on my bike, if you do make a new version and sell the old one or swap for a set of UFPs: I'm interested.

Wonderful detail and fine engineering.

In line with finding easy mods, I was wondering if putting a stirrup at each end of a strap and throwing it over the pet carrier before closing the saddle might offer a quick fix. Less elegant but......

Fay